Plants Database, Succulents

You all are such an excellent source of info. I was wondering if you guys get the chance go to the plants database and add some stuff. You don't have to upload pictures or anything like that. Just put the information in so that we can all learn on how certain succulents grow. When their growing periods are. How big they will get. I have added my recent addition of Haworthia's. But I know I still don't have all the info on them that I could. So please it would help a lot of people learn about the plants we love to collect and we would be teaching others how to take care of them.
So if ya have the time check it out

I just can't figure out how to get to the data base. I have tried. Perhaps when Patrick gets here he will help me.
I would love to do it, I did try, but got mixed up along the way. You are really doing great.
I have scanner, I have the digital camera, but can't figure out how to get it up and running. All of you need to get some books and start somewhere, my first book cost me only $3.00. Learn one step at a time.
I know very little is available at the library's. There are groups available in major cities all over the world, even in Russia, you could form small groups where ever you live, trade plants, have a study group, show sides, and have speakers once a month. A group could be as little as six people. Our CSSA (Cactus Succulents of America) will send out kits to get you started. It doesn't need to be formal, it should be fun. Norma

Holly, groups can rent slide shows with comments on each slide if you, the group are members of the CSSA. If you like I will copy off my information from my club journals and you can process it. If you know how to put up slides on a scanner, I'll mail those to you. There are many side groups that send out journals but they cost a fee, anywhere to $15.00 to $35.00 depending on how many issues, and if they are in color. I struggled hard to get the information I know, just like you are struggling now, it doesn't come easy. You must always give author's the credits for their articles and pictures that is a must. When you are a part of a public, private, garden you will be able to learn that way, and also receive all the benefits when you are a volunteer. This is why I know so many people, I love putting people together. Well enough for tonight, think over my suggestions. Dave parden me, but Holly this isn't the only site that give out information. Many more are available, like the Sansevieria group, the Crassulacea group, the Hardy plant group, the Fat plant group. Will be glad to help when asked. Norma

Hi Holly, I took your advise, I found the data base, I made one entry in Haworthia, the form just isn't cut out for succulents. The plant that I entered is the the largest of the species, and it spirels, has pointed leaves and is very different in it markings compaired to all of it's family members. I saw the plant the first time today. It's a must have. It was so large it needed a 6 in. pot.
I have previously made several entries into the Crassula species.
By the way a good book to have is for Haworthia are the following: Pilbeams book on Haworthia, a more up to date book is by Bruce Bayer. There ia Haworthia Society which I would be happy to post the address. There is also a forum, which I'm not allowed on, but never have been told why. It is organized by Breck Breckenridge, he claims to hold a national reference collection and I can obtain that address as well. There are many more books than what I listed available. By the way Bob Kent is considered the expert in this country on Haworthia. Norma

Norma what a help you are!! I wouldn't be able to do slides, as I haven't got a clue as to how to use them or scan them. I don't think that there are any CSSA in my area or near me.
I'll put some of those books on my christmas list and see if I get them.
On to the plants database now. There is a little error that I will try and walk you through.

Family=Asphodelaceae You have it down as lily. I would change it for you but only you and Dave have editing powers in this.
Species= limifolia you have the whole name
Common name= Haworthia limifolia v. giantea
Otherwise you did it perfectly. Now if you ever get any pics onto your computer let me know. Because you can transfer them to this site very easily. It always helps to have an image with the name. Doesn't matter if it is a big plant or a little plant. You can also add a picture to any plant that is in the database.

Heck I have a library here..lol I can probably go check out some books. I would love any info you could share with me. SOmetimes it is tough to learn because sooooooo many sites say a lot of different things. Then you wind up confused. Most of my learning has come from experience. But it helps to know before you kill a plant how to take care of it...lol I'll check out the books you suggested.
Thanks Holly

Hi Norma --
I agree that the form on the plants database is not set up right for succulents. Maybe be we can convince Dave to add another form once we all determine what that should be.
That's the main reason I haven't gone forward with adding a lot of my succulents to the database. We need to work on that.

You are right Holly about all the differing opinions about growing plants, especially succulents. But some of it is valid. I grow all of my succulents under lights in clay pots with a small, oscillating fan that's on when the lights are. My watering habits are much different from someone who grows on a window sill (many cloudy days when the soil stays moist) in a plastic pot. I also use a really porous soil mix which has 65% pumice (for most but not all succulents) which dries out VERY quickly. This works for me in my conditions, especially since I like to water! Experience will help you tailor your culture to your own conditions. Norma's right - READ, READ, READ. Knowledge is the best way to a green thumb. It's a struggle to sort it all out, but you will.
If you can afford it, join the CSSA (www.cssainc.org). IMHO it's the best value for you money.

Happy Trails

Patrick

Holly, I posted 2 more entries in the data base on Crassula, these I know they are being sold at Lowe's. We now have a Lowe's close by, I'll check and see what is being sold currently by Altman's. The last time I saw the succulents they were in such bad condition,(they had just been delivered) even looking at them up close and feeling them I doubt if I could tell them apart well enough to identify. Pale, stretched out, probably Sedum, Pachyphytum, Sedum X, Graptopetalum, Crassula, grown fast and poorly, so Altman's can produce them in the thousands. Norma

Holly, the Haworthia,Gasteria, and Aloe are still in the Liliaceae family/Tribe 9 Aloineae, Tribe 3 is Asphodeleae which includes the Bulbine and Bulbinopsis. Now if you can find published that it has changed please tell me where to look, I would then be glad to change it for you. Norma

Ahhh, Norma, My apologies. I forgot that there are other forms of Haworthia besides Asphodelaceae. PLease don't mind me,and sorry for making you think I knew all..lol My brain gets ahead of me sometimes. My main thing on two of the plants that you included was that the beginning name was not on the database, thus when someone does a search for Haworthia they cannot directly click on the plants you have uploaded. I'll give you the link to the Haworthia section of the database and you can see how everyone else's has a link for the first section (Common Name). Even if it doesn't have a common name, you could put none, or you could put the whole name of the plant there. Just makes it easier for people to get to. http://plantsdatabase.com/search.php?search_text=Haworthia
Here also is a link to desert tropicals they have the family name listed as Asphodelaceae, for the HAworthia Cymbiformis as well as the the limifolia. So are they wrong? Or just mis informed? Am I reading it all wrong?

http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Asphodelaceae/Haworthia_cymbiformis.html

I have to tell you I am a bit confused myself now. So if you know something I don't please let me know so I don't get anymore confused. When I add to the plants Database I usually confir with desert tropicals to make sure I have everything right.
Let me know
Holly

Holly, today I asked John Trager about a possible species change with the Gasteria, Aloe,Haworthia tribe. He has heard Colin Walker of England is proposing one, and in the near future you may just be right. But we are not changing the names until it is in writing and it crosses John Trager desk. Holly I would really like to know where you received this information, depending on who,where, makes a big difference on the accuracy. You just can't eliminate the Liliaceae Family without some reason.
Do you know the current standing of the San. at this time. They have been changed three times, do you know what current family they belong. Agave? Draceneace? (spelling?)

Norma, I have gotten all of my info online. I do not remember every place I have gone to to get the information. But almost all of the plants I have looked up list the Haworthia as Asphodelaceae. I usually always go to desert tropicals.com and they have them listed under Asphodelaceae. Thats where I go for a picture varification usually.
I'll check to see what they say about the Sans. Ok they say on their site that the sans are Agavaceae. Here is the link for the Sansevieria trifasciata
http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Agavaceae/Sansevieria_trifasciata.html
If you look below the common name they have the Scientific name, Synonym, and family. Family is where they list it as Agavaceae. I know what I know, from sites like this, and from people like you. I don't have books or publications to back it up. I looked earlier for things like that, but was unable to find it. Maybe I am searching the wrong way. I don't know. I wish I could give you the factual data that you are looking for.
I always do my searches on Google, and find what I can going to various sites. I will try to keep better track when I do my searches, this way if questions ever come up again I will have at least some knowledge of were I heard that.
Oh and not all, but some of the pictures on the desert tropicals site, are taken from the Huntigton Gardens, If you didn't already know that.
I hope this helps in some way. Any more questions? I'll be more than happy to answer what I can. Or to look for things you want to know. I'll be happy to search around for you.
Holly

Holly, you are a sweetheart and good sport. Just like we all make mistakes with information, so do other forums, some books are horrid, so if I get information on this I'll let you know, if get it first let me know. These books are out of date as soon as they are published because it often takes 10 years before they can publish. So much happens in 10 years. This doesn't surprise me, some Crassula have 5 name changes. That was the first time I posted to that list and didn't quiet figure out it should be done, I still figure out how to go in and make corrections.

I did go to Lowe's to check out the plants, they still look horrible. The have Echeveria x pulv-oviver fuzzy leaves deep maroon edges, nice flowers for Christmas.

Pachyphytum, Vera Higgis or similar, we are currently sellin one on the ISI list at this time. Mine are very deep pink maroon, one comes more a mauve color, or beige red.

Two different Peperomia, they look like hands at prayer with a window on one edge. Green varieties

Senecio, one with long narrow blue leaves.

Crassula perforata, or 'Necklace Vine' green form, here it is called 'green jade, which it is not. This plant will turn red with good light and have yellow flowers. It will also come in blue, red leaf, it will make a good basket plant.

Echevieria 'Dondo' which I believe Myron Kimnach hybridized? Pretty little thing, nice flowers in a bunch.

Semps, wrongly named

A Crassula? I don't recognize as so.

Pachevieria, plump pink leaves

Echevieria 'Debbie' There are more and if I can find the list I will post and describe them. Norma

Sure thing Norma. I will probably do more research after Christmas. From now till then I am going to be very busy. I'll hop around the internet and see what the majority say. Have you checked out the CSS. Maybe they might have some information on who is who and what is what. I'll check it out soon. And do be sure to let me know if you find out. I hate to be confused on something that really should not be so confusing. I wish that they would not change the plant names so often. Just pick a name and stick to it...lol
Holly

Holly, I just called my friend Juan Chahinian, in Florida, he is the expert on Sanseveria at thia time. Well known all over the world. Published. Lectures in Europe and America.
He tells me that the family name of Sansevieria is indeed
Draceanaeace (spelling)and has been for the past 12 years. I think the books you are reading or the information given on the search engins are out of date. I don't know who does the research for them, but perhaps both of us need to complain. We also must be very careful what we put on our own fact sheets.
Many people who write books do not do their own research,(lazy, or old) I know because I am helping out on one book at this time. Our mistakes are not bigies in the scheme of things, but I would like to strangle the people who put out the misinformation that we are depending on to learn. Norma

I agree 100% Norma!! I am getting tired of going and changing this and changing that, thinking that everyone knows what they are talking about. And then finding out, just like me, they haven't a clue. I wish the culture of plants (if that is even the right word) wasn't so hard to distinguish, it's very frustrating to me. I am glad that I don't have everyone elses job. I guess that I should just be happy that I have their latin names...lol And sometimes those aren't even correct. :) Thanks for calling you friend. ANd if I did add any sans. to the Plants Database I will be sure to change it.
Holly

Holly, I searched and searched, I finally found it changed at Siverhill Seeds in So. Africa. Now I must find out who, and why, and where it is published as so. Liliaceae=Asphodelaceae So now the labels must be written Asphodelaceae, Liliaceae ,Haworthia (sections?) reinwardtii

Crassulaceae, Section Rosulares, Crassula Species Perfoliata v. falcata minor. WOW I think we need larger labels and more ink. I can make a caculated guess where this came.
Norma

I noticed this thread, and thought I'd throw my two cents' worth in.

Norma, I promise I haven't forgotten about you or your requests for changes to the Plants Database. However, with the holidays I haven't had the heart (or the time/energy myself) to schedule some time with Dave to start talking about the changes you suggested.

Here's something I'd like you to consider: if we add fields for all the things unique to succulents, they might be unnecessary (and confusing) for folks entering trees, perennials, vegetables, etc. into the database. And you-all are not alone in needing "peculiar" fields; those entering hemerocallis (daylilies) and roses (for example) have many of the same issues you do, although the fields they require are different still.

So what I'm going to recommend to Dave is that he explore setting up separate databases for each of these unique types of plants. I have no idea how feasible that is, but he and I will probably be picking your brains for some input after the holidays.

In the meantime, think about the fields you would actually want to SEARCH for an item on - would you want to search for all plants that are a specific leaf or pot size? Or color, texture, etc.? If not, could those things be put into a general description? Remember that a database is wonderful for searching, but only if the fields you set up and make "standard" are truly meaningful to the characteristics you use to distinguish between plants.

Otherwise, the information while helpful, should simply go into a free-form text field.

I also noticed that some of you are adding sources for specific varieties and prices; I would strongly caution you against doing that. After adding 1,000 sources to the Garden Watchdog, I can well attest that plant sources come and go (unfortunately) and plant prices are quickly outdated.

If you want to keep track of where you buy plants or how much they cost, add that information to your personal journal entry for each plant that you purchase, but PLEASE consider that this database should theoretically outlive all of us, in which case, adding source/cost information makes it almost instantly obsolete. The good news is, you can always go back into your own entries and edit them :)

I hope this helps. I also have done some editing (spelling and standardizing of family names) on the succulent entries. If I have made any errors, please feel free to go back in and edit them. On issues of family, trust me - I feel your pain. Family names have come under a lot of fire and controversy lately. If you are using a printed book that is more than 2-3 years old, use online sources to double-check its accuracy, as many taxanomic changes have taken place across the entire plant kingdom, and continue to change. (I guess it keeps the taxonomists in business or something :)

Hope this helps - feel free to e-mail me if you have any other questions (or toss them back here; I'll try to check back on this thread.)
Terry

Terry you are a sweet heart. That is why I go into such long explanatiions. I have found so many errors on the plant database. If we want to help people than it shoud be very accutate. At this time there are not Liliaceace in So. Africa. I called Rachel Saunders just to make sure. I still don't know here they put the Gasteria and Haworthia. I dont' kow how they came to the conclusion to change the names, and I do know it is not accepted at this time.

I would appreciate any corrections you may have, any input,
any suggestions, and if I do something wrong, please tell me. I'm old enough to take it. We have found so many errors in the books especially on the Crassula. I know how they throw a book together to meet publication dates. But misinformation does so much harm to this hobby, it needs credability. I really appreciate your help, and thank you,
Norma

I went to the hyperlink, too many mistakes for me to use,with no information, description, measurments, flowering time. I'm talking abut the Crassula species only.

Gasteria, Aloe, Haworthia, Holly this is what I found out about the change of family name. "The family name did not change. All that happeded is that all the South African plants in Liliaceae have been moved out into other families. So. the Aloes, Chlorophytum, and Kniphofias went into Asphodelaceae, Agapanthus and Tulbaghia into Alliaceae, Asparagus into Asparagaceae, et.
We now have no Lilaceae members in So.Africa at all."
signed Rachel Saunders.
If this any sense to you please explain it to me. Norma

I am guessin g it means that they basically are no longer calling So. African groups Lilacae(sp) anymore, and are now calling them by the new group names. I really don't understand it. But I am guessing most people are now calling them by the names in the above letter instead of the groups that they used to be in. Very confusing. It would have been nice if she had explained it a bit better. But the people who do the scientific stuff for a living, tend to forget that we don't understand everything that they are talking about. and assume that we know what they are talking about. Very confusing. I guess that letter just adds a bit more to the confusion Huh!!!!
Welp thats it from me for now. Have a very merry Christmas all.
Holly

Hi two cents worth. Another change in case others haven't heard about it, but not in writing, no author, so I still don't know if this is going anywhere. Kalanchoe, those species that have plantlets forming in the margins of the leaves are now considered Bryophyllum family. This vegetative reporudction is called pseudobulbils.

I don't need to change any labels, because I do not use the family name on them, just Kalanchoe thyrsiflora,
Gasteria armstrongii Hawothia turgida Aloe fragilis
Crassula acinaciformis. I have never seen family names used even in large botanical nurseries. Berkley, Denver, Huntington, USLA, all their labels used in the Gardens does not contain the familyi name.

Now I would like to know how this forum wants this handled because we should be consistant so we will know what each other is talking about. Cutie names confuses ALL of us who want to help,it will have 5 names attached from 5 different nurseries. Example: Crassula 'Flame', 'Campfire', 'Blaze'
all one and the same.
Senecio jacobsonii "weeping willow Jade" really all because 'Jade' sells better to the Eastern customers. This is dishonest, and deceiving for profit. Senecio don't like cold weather. Norma

Hi Norma and Holly --
I posed the question of Asphodelaceae to Steven Hammer yesterday and he informed me that haworthia, gasteria, etc. do belong to Asphodelaceae which is a sub-family of Liliaceae. As to WHO decided this, he said there is no central authority, although there are many who would LIKE to be. The distinctions make sense though. Apparently chaos and confusion continue to be the norm for taxonomists.

Patrick

"...Apparently chaos and confusion continue to be the norm for taxonomists." AMEN! And not just in this area - check out the threads here on tomato taxonomy - you'd think one common, every day plant could be easily classified, but noooooo..... (grin)

The main reason for including families in our database (in my opinion) is that it is a teaching and identification tool. It helps those who are curious about which plants are fairly closely related, although not necessarily in the same genera. Also, I know that many people use family characteristics to narrow down the possibilities when trying to identify an unknown plant.

As to varieties and cultivars. There is a free-form text field for them once the species has been added. If you want some ideas on how to it can be used, check out this entry for a Caryopteris species with many named cultivars available: http://plantsdatabase.com/go/557.html

Now, the sticking point on cultivars occurs with plants like hemerocallis where one species may have thousands of cultivars/varieties with radically different blooming habits (color, time, height, etc.) That is where I am seeing that we may need to take a different tack with the database for plants like daylilies and roses. And perhaps succulents, although I confess I know very little about them - I'm looking to you-all for guidance on whether this is the case.

I talked to John, and got the break down on the Crassula family. For our level, we are not writing a book, nor are we botanists,it really doesn't matter as long we all know what plant each of us are talkiing about. If the writers don't get that picky why should we? Look in the CSSA Journal, or the So.African Journal, or the British Journal, they don't seem to see it as necessary for identification.
Norma

This message was edited Wednesday, Dec 26th 10:54 PM

Most of our group don't even know what species they are looking at, so how can they look up a species, or Family
You are given wrong names where ever you have purchased the plant, the realiable places are usally mail order houses, clubs, large Botanical Gardens (Atlantia, Huntington, Denver, when they have their sales) You can purchase for a small amount of money, $2.00 which is often less the plant you are buying with the wrong name and your going to take home to die. These catalogues are great sources of information. Many catalogue places do not send out good plants, they are small, no roots, but the names are correct. You will make mistakes but this is a learning experience. Build your collections slowly, keep the names on the plants, there no rush to get hundreds of them especially if you don't know what your buying or how to take care of them, each Specie is an individual, and will require different care if they are to live, so don't rush in. Enough lecturing, Norma