Backyard greenhouse for Zone 3

I am new here but I'm interested in buying or making a greenhouse to start seeds in as well as hopefully grow some veggies all year. I am NOT at all knowledgeable about anything to do with a greenhouse so please excuse my ignorance. I am in Saskatchewan so it gets extremely cold here. I am considered zone 2b but can easily grow and overwinter zone 4 perennials. So... what would be my best option for my purposes and would it even be possible to grow veggies considering the extreme cold we get here? If not, I still want something to winter tender plants.

Check out fuel price first. Greenhouses take a lot of heat.
We do not use ours at all in winter. This year started mid April.
Don't take long to burn up 3 or 4 hundred $ worth of fuel.
We start seeds in our basement.
Link to seed starting;
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/371007/

Nancylip,

I'm North of Saskatoon, sk. and have a year-round (commercial) greenhouse where we grow vegetables 365 days a year. It's certainly possible, but the cold is certainly a barrier.

What, specifically, are you hoping to grow?

Also, I am surprised that you are considered 2b, I would have thought your area would be 3b?

I guess your area is blank on this map http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-saskatchewan-plant-zone-hardiness-map.php which I used to figure out my zone... is that because there is a pocket of 2a in your area, or maybe its that different maps colour it differently?

Anyway, I was thinking that might solve the mystery of being able to grow some zone 4 perennials.

Hi Nancy.

I'm Zone 3B. I had a little 8x12 English greenhouse (for dumb, but shoot, it was 1991, I didn't know any better, and I thought at the time that everyone in England must be smarter about gardening than us - wrong again - ) in central North Dakota, which I operated for 7 years before we moved to Minnesota. And I'm just re-assembling that greenhouse this week! So excited! But what I can actually do in this greenhouse will be very much limited by its inefficiencies.

I'd say that what you need in a greenhouse depends an awful lot on what you want to do. I very seriously doubt that there's *any* option that will allow you to grow vegetables in the winter in any greenhouse at all, where we live. It's not even a matter of heat, alone. Some of them seem to be really sensitive to day length. So I can grow spinach like mad in the spring, when day length is over twelve hours and increasing. But in the fall, when day length is on the way down, spinach that I plant in August just... zip. Disappears. Now imagine trying to grow tomatoes or beans or peppers, or anything that likes Full Summer. Uh...

So in order to actually *grow* edibles, you might have to add artificial lighting to your heating bills. Ka-ching.

My late husband and I sectioned off a corner of our detached garage, and insulated it as best we could, both floor, walls, and ceilings, because we needed a place where we could do messy, dusty, and/or dirty repair projects in the winter. That's where I overwinter plants, nowadays, with a little electric heater. It's *way* more substantial than any greenhouse, but not as light of course.

Overwintering plants depends an awful lot on how many (how much space do you need) and how tender, exactly. So, I've got fuchsias. They're fine being overwintered as long as they don't actually freeze, so I can let the room they're in get down to 35-37F, and they'll make it. I have a star jasmine that I keep in the same place, and it too got through a couple of winters when the temp in there actually hit 32F. (Which killed off some of the fuchsias. Oops.) Tropical hibiscus, on the other hand - gotta keep it over 40-45. Maybe 50. Which I learned from disappointing experience, and which is why my lovely but now ugly hibby is inside the house for the winter.

In our climate I wouldn't dare think of trying to make a hobby greenhouse serve this tender-overwintering function. The energy costs would be unbelievable.

My own intention in starting up my greenhouse again is to have a place to raise seedlings that I will have started inside the house; a place where they'll get the cooler night temps, so they won't do that awful stretching that happens when it's 68F in the dark; but LOTS more light during the day, when it's maybe up to the low 60's or so, so they'll be chunky and strong. It'll be a transitional greenhouse, a place between seed-sowing and transplanting out. But it'll be de-commissioned completely, every November.

There are such things as sunken greenhouses, not unlike an earth house, where the site is excavated several feet down, and the roof of the greenhouse emerges directly from ground level, or very slightly above it. These are more energy efficient than all-above-ground greenhouses. If you're willing to do a *lot* of site modification (ka-ching), and some research to figure out how to build one of these, that might be your best bet for an extended season and better energy conservation.

So, I just noticed that you wrote long ago, in June! Did you come to any decisions in all these months?

One item greenhouse growers forget when they want to overwinter veggies---pollinating bees. They are needed to produce fruit (tomatoes). Add to that 12 to 16 hours daylight with sun, and above 65 degrees.

I owned and operated a commercial greenhouse in Nebraska during the 80's. I only grew houseplants. Tomatoes and peppers in season. Perennials I grew outdoors since they didn't need a greenhouse.

The greenhouse was built by my ex husband from my design. Heated by gas and cooled by 2-20" commercial fans. It served me well. Since I was the only one that sold early tomatoes and spaghetti squash plants, etc. the greenhouse paid for itself.

Fuel prices were lower then.
We raised a lot of flowers & vegetable plants back then. We had 3 big greenhouses. Nearly 6000 Sq Ft total. Made good money!

My daughter bought a 10x10ft aluminum greenhouse, which I warned her against. My DSIL had to put a lot of time and work stabilizing it because Wyoming is very windy. She also thought she could raise veggies over the winter. It would cost a fortune to heat and not a greenhouse for Wyoming or northern climate. She found out I was right. It was a spur-of-the-moment purchase.

My sister shared with me a greenhouse chapter in a book about Alaskan gardening. One of the things pointed out is that aluminum collects and disperses heat *rapidly.* Well, of course that makes sense... but it didn't occur to me to take that into account, when I bought my greenhouse. Wood is a better framework, from the heating point of view. Still. Aluminum is way lower maintenance, and if you're OK with limiting your growing season some, it's maybe not entirely dumb.

Regardless of what the greenhouse is made of, wrapping it with Solar Blanket material will allow much more control of cold inside the GH. But yes, it will still require heat, but there are ways to heat it economically IF someone has some basic construction skills and IF the GH is large enough to accommodate that heating structure. I don't think there has been much if any discussion on DG about heating GH's but there has been a lot (with instructions) over on ATP.

Ken

You are in zone 8 so easy for you to say. Many of us are in colder zones and get minus -20 to -30 temps at night in he winter. That requires a more solid greenhouse. Mine was made out of wood and fiberglass with 2 hanging gas heaters. Since it was a commercial it paid for itself.

I'm not sure what your reference to my being in zone 8 means. We get down into the 20's way too frequently, and have already had 6 nights/mornings in the low 20's upper teens. We usually drop to near 10 F during winter months, and even though that's certainly not minus 0, what helps to generate heat and what helps to hold that heat in is universal, regardless of zone.

My first greenhouse I ever had (built professionally) was made of marine aluminum and glass. It was a monster and built like a rock. That greenhouse stood through three major hurricanes. I doubt even WY has sustained 130 mph winds for 6-8 hrs. Hurricanes are really fun to sit through.......LOL

Ken

People don't understand zones.
They have to do with perennial plants surviving freezing temperatures.
Plants you can overwinter in Mississippi, will die here.
Our ground will freeze to a depth of 4 feet some winters. I'm sure yours doesn't freeze much at all.
I have some blackberries here that are meant for Missouri & south. They survive but don't bear fruit because the canes freeze to hard in winter. I put a straw bale enclosure over them in winter of 2012-2013. They were loaded with fruit & just as it started to ripen, a strange fruit fly moved in & ruined all of them. Also got my strawberries. Wasn't here this past season. I hope it never returns.

That is the nice part about the very cold winters, pests are killed off & need to be brought back in on wind or whatever.

Ken, 20 and 30 are spring in Wyoming. Our ground freeze and stay pretty frozen until it warms up in the spring. Then there is the wind which can be 60 mph or more. That is the difference between zone 4 and 8.

You are right in what helps to generate heat and what helps to hold that heat in is universal, regardless of zone. It is the high cost to generate heat that is the problem. Not all greenhouse holds heat and commercial aluminum do not. My daughter has one. Heating cost would be much higher in zone 4 than in zone 8 and some gardeners either can't afford it, or don't think it is worth it. It is also expensive to add heaters which is the only way to heat in the North.

CountryGardens, I agree with you.

I understand the heating costs would be greater, just like the heating costs here in NE Mississippi are far greater than that in S. Florida. I certainly agree that for some, the cost of heating a given structure would curtail growing cold-sensitive plants. I really still don't understand the comments about aluminum. Pray tell what percentage of the overall cf. of a greenhouse is the aluminum? 2%, 5%, less than that? I don't know but from my experience in greenhouses (I have had five of them, and the whopper was 34' x 12' x 10'), the frame is the least of my concerns. Of course I want the frame durable, since that holds everything together...........LOL

We have lots of thunderstorms here and often get 60 mph winds with them. A 60 mph wind in a hurricane would be considered a "breeze" though.

Ken

This is what happens when a freak wind shows up.
The east end of this greenhouse caught a SE wind in June.
The east half ended up on the west half. A total mess. We have it all down now. Not much bent up so I will rebuild it this spring.

My DD greenhouse is made of fiberglass on a flimsy aluminum frame. My DSIL is in the process of putting it together since it is a kit. He had to do a lot of securing to the ground due to high wind where they live. No mature trees since they live on the prairie. I can't find a photo of it that I took when done. She bought it from HARBOR FREIGHT.

My greenhouse is the 2nd photo. I have a plant stand in front to sell plants from. Only the front of the greenhouse has fiberglass all the way down. The frame is solid redwood. The long sides are solid on bottom 4 feet, with the upper flat fiberglass. The roof is corrugated fiberglass. For some reason I never took photos of just the greenhouse. Size was 26 ft x 16 ft to fit next to my house. The floor was poured cement. My carpenter ex-husband built it according to my plans.

Gosh CountryGarden, I hope you can fix it next spring. Mine was heavy so no problem with wind. My DD greenhouse really need to be secured. She uses it to start plants during spring.

This message was edited Dec 9, 2014 1:28 AM

Many people who build greenhouses, particularly their first one, think of only the structure from the ground up. I don't care what the greenhouse is made of, compared to structures like homes, it is very light. Securing that framework to the ground is extremely important. The foundation of my greenhouses is made of treated 4x4's. Every three feet I drilled a 3/8" hole at an angle and drove four foot rebar through those holes and into the ground. We have had winds (from Hurricane Katrina for example) of 100 mph, and my greenhouses don't move - nada.

I now wish I had built the second greenhouse twice the size (10x12'). I already had a lean-to and I only had a 12' space between the corner of my house and AC units. I thought the second greenhouse, though free-standing, would be more "esthetic" if it was the same length. I was stupid! I envy you with that 26x16' greenhouse.

Ken

Ken

This one was anchored. A pipe 3 feet in the ground at every hoop.
Big winds do strange things here. Probably a mini tornado type wind did it.
There were 36 posts in the ground.
This is it in 2013. It was 42 x 48.

Is that a "hoop" greenhouse, built from rolls of plastic? It sure is a huge one.

A tornado, particularly F3-F5 ones, will destroy almost any structure it encounters. Unfortunately, Mississippi seems to be getting more and more of the F4 and F5 ones than ever before.

Ken

CountryGarden, I see tomatoes. Are you growing plants in the ground, instead of pots. That was my DD original plan, quickly forgotten.

My DSIL drove pipes down on each corner to secure it. We don't get tornadoes here in Wy. It can happen but so far none. Had them in Nebraska but the greenhouse stood. It was built on the East side of my house so was protected somewhat.

It looks so lush in your greenhouse and I bet it smells so good. Mine always did.

Ken, mine had 4x4's every 4 feet---the width of the fiberglass that came in a roll.

In some ways I miss not having one but now live in a residential area so couldn't sell to pay for itself. Also too much worry and care-taking. Now concentrating on hybridizing daylilies and irises.

1] My stock plants..
2] Unregistered seedlings planted May 2013
3] First bloom on iris seedlings.2012
4] daylily and iris seedlings planted side-by-side. 2011
5] A keeper and under evaluation for possible naming and registration. Bloomed 2014.





This message was edited Dec 9, 2014 12:22 AM

Below are the daylily seedlings.

They are in ground. One greenhouse has heat so are started early. We can have tomatoes ripe by mid June.