Continuing on with this silliness. GMO.

Food that has the USDA ORGANIC icon should not contain Round-up, or any other herbicide, pesticide, or insecticide.

This message was edited May 19, 2013 7:19 AM

CG, I assume that arbitrary distances must be expressed to establish rules and guidelines. What I have noticed from Roundup is that after 10 feet, no noticeable affect is made on non-Roundup plants....2-4-D can revaporize much worse.

Savage- you need to tell Farmerdill that GMO seeds are available to the general public. That is something that I've never heard of, but I don't grow corn....he's much more knowledgeable then I am. As far as I know that's the one thing we've never argued about on Daves. Lol.

Can you buy it or do they just sell it there? Our local feed store sells chemicals, but I can't buy them bc I don't have/want a license.

1Lisac, Perhaps someone could buy the GMO sweet corn without a contract because no one is going to save the seed.?

I try to avoid these silly discussions, but this one drew me in. GMO crops are heavily regulated. There are cases in court right now where farmers have violated the licensing agreement. This is a veggie site so GMO is limited to sweet corn. Bt sweet corn has been available for 15 years from Syngenta. Seminis introduced a Bt- RU ready sweet corn in 2012. You must have a license to buy it from either producer and it is limited to commercial growers. On top of that each state has its own rules. We are not a law abiding country ( most of us have at least broken the speed limits) So the greater danger is someone sneaking out GMO seeds cross breeding with with regular corn and introducing into the "heirloom" market. I am still amazed that an unscrupulous graduate student did not take seeds from The University of California's Flavor Rich tomato crossbreed it and throw it on the heirloom market. Fortunately most of the amateur breeders concentrate on tomatoes and apparently did not get a hold of that one. My prediction is that if and when GMO's become available to home gardeners, it will through the "heirloom" market.

This message was edited May 19, 2013 7:20 AM

Back when i was a boy, say 80 years ago, everything was organic. If there were any chemicals no one had money to buy them, so i am surprised that people only lived half as long then as they do now when everything, according to some people, seems to be mostly deadly poisonous chemicals, that just looks on the outside like a vegetable.

And having swallowed and absorbed through my eyes and nose, more Roundup than 99.9% of the people worrying about it ever will, i am living proof it does not harm people.

Ernie

I would buy BT-enhanced sweet corn seed if I could. I'm almost certain that I am already eating BT sweet corn when I buy corn at the grocery store. It hasn't killed me so far.... It would be nice to not have to fight the worms quite so hard and get the freshness of home grown.

Here's a rational, well written article about BT corn.

http://soursaltybittersweet.com/content/organic-lies-about-bt-sweet-corn

Ernie, I am about as old as you. Back in the thirties and up into the fifties. Colorado potato beetles were fought with lead arsenate and Mexican bean beetles and about everything else with derrus root ( Rotenone). In those day many regulated poisons like Paris Green, nicotine sulfate,strychnine etc were readily available. When the Colorado potato beetle first arrived in Virginia in the teens, my grandfathers generation used Paris green to try to combat them. One of the disadavantages of a developing transportation system was the spread of pest species into new areas. Most of the plant diseases and many of the insects were not present then or were recently introduced. When something threatened, they fought back with whatever they could lay thier hands on.

This message was edited May 19, 2013 7:21 AM

It is interesting that Monsanto gets bashed for this as Syngenta (Swiss based company) has marketed Bt Sweet corn for years. Monsanto's claim to fame is Round -Up. Most GMO research takes place at tax supported institutions of higher learning. Most in the area of high volume field crops. No one has to buy GMO seed. Sales are driven by the market place. Farmers try to cut production costs and with the advent of no till farming rely on herbicides. It is expensive to apply insecticides so costs can be reduced by using Bt varieties. Piracy is a major problem in modern society as there are those who try to get the advantage of GMO's with out paying the cost. Farmers complain about the law suits, but that in part is dictated by govermental controls. There are specific methods of production and waste product disposal that are dictated and included in all growers licenses, but there are always those few who try to get around the rules and violate those licenses. Many of the pests we have today came from folks violating quarantine laws and importing plants, fruits , or produce that carried those pests. Even if you invent the proverbial better mouse trap, some one will violate your patent rights with a cheaper knock -off.

Farmer Dill,

I appreciate the common sense you and Country Gardens and a couple of others add to this discussion.

I remember hearing of those poisons back then, but during the thirties, we could not afford any of them. All i can remember being used was soaking cigarette butts in water, to get the nicotine for spraying.
But the real scary one for me, was when i went to work in Asphalt paving after the war, and we had to use pure Arsenic under driveways and parking lots to keep grass and weeds from coming through. It was vile, green stuff, and we had to mix it and apply it, no protective gear, just told to be careful as it was poison

So, instead of being upset with Monsanto for developing Roundup, every person on this forum should be eternally grateful for them giving us Roundup for weed control, so we no longer have to use Arsenic.

The two things that keep me returning to this thread are the efforts by some to stop progress by interfering with companies that are trying to create improvements that will help everyone, and the people that want everything they can think of, including labels, but want to be sure someone else pays for it.

Labels are fine with me, so if they would just shut up and pay for the labels they want, there would be no objection.

Ernie

I am willing to pay any extra that might be incurred to have GMO's labeled, as I already do to have organic food so labeled.

I HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT I AM PUTTING IN MY BODY!

Honeybee, there you go trying to stop progress again. Don't you appreciate all those improvements that the kind pesticide companies are making to your food?

This message was edited May 19, 2013 7:22 AM

GG.
If you do not believe Roundup is a big improvement over arsenic for killing weeds, you are not as smart as i thought you were.

Ernie

I'm personally happy to have Roundup, fertilizers, and pesticides. I can't imagine how we could possibly feed ourselves, much less the rest of the world. Corporations develop new products to satisfy market demand and to provide profit for their shareholders. They also provide the technology, equipment, and methods that make everything work. I'm not convinced that the big corporations, even Monsanto, are the embodiment of evil that some seem to thing that they are.

David

David,

I have no personal like or dislike for Monsanto, but i am glad to see that I am not the only one that appreciates the good that big corporations do.

The only thing i would add to your list, is they are the only ones, besides the Government, that can afford to take the risk of testing and trying new products or new solutions to old problems.

Thanks,
Ernie

Yáll might like to read the 30-year farming systems trial report from the Rodale Institute in which they have shown that growing food organically can, indeed, feed the worlds people.

http://rodaleinstitute.org/our-work/farming-systems-trial/farming-systems-trial-30-year-report/

Ernie, you're using ad hominem tactics again. If you're sure of your position, please use facts rather than attacking people's intelligence. That doesn't convince anyone and just lowers the level of discourse, which was actually fairly good here for awhile.

Honey,

Long before Rodale became known, Louis Bromfield was going to feed the world with his composting methods, but the problem was, the process cost more than it was worth. He did have some success composting tea leaf waste in India, i assume because of cheap labor, but when he tried it in the USA at Malabar Farm, he soon went bankrupt.

And whatever method you choose to feed the world, it has to be economically feasible.

I liked the work Rodale Sr. did, but there is a reason why Organic Food is so expensive.

Ernie

G G,

I was speaking from personal experience. Where did you get your information?

Ernie

Ernie, of course organic food is more expensive! It may cost a little more than conventionally grown food, but it's superior taste, and the fact that it is free of pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides makes it worth the extra investment for myself and my family.

If you would kindly read the above link I provided, you would see that feeding the world's people can be economically feasible.

Rodale's 30 year trial has taken place in Pennsylvania. Please take the time to read the link, all references have been listed. They can't all be wrong in their conclusions.

I'm not saying that everyone should purchase organic food, just that labels should be provided with the information as to what is in the food. Healthy food keeps us healthy.

Have you ever noticed in your vegetable garden that it's always the unhealthy plants that get eaten by pests? Perhaps that's why I have such success with my own endeavors, my soil is healthy, which, in turn produces healthy plants that resist pests.

Honey,
I am very lucky here. My yard has not been planted or watered for 20 years until i started 2 years 2 years ago, so i have not had the disease or bug problems that i will probably have later. I also have a lot of birds here. I believe healthy soil makes healthy plants, but I am more in the middle of the road.

When i get sick, it take medicine for it, and when my plants do get sick, i give them medicine. I had a snail problem and immediately stopped the damage with some snail poison. So i do not qualify as an Organic Grower.

We both understand that Organic produce costs more, and i think it is fine that you buy it and enjoy and appreciate it. But like Malabar Farms, the extra cost of doing it that way eliminates too many potential customers, and so the operation fails.

To change that statement just a little bit, "IF all the people in the World could afford the extra cost, It would be possible to raise enough food organically to feed them." And with that change of wording, you and i are in agreement.

But we can also be sure that if it is truly both better, and economically feasible, it will win out on its own merits. Those two factors generally win the battle at the end.

Ernie

Honeybee,

I'm not arguing that organics might be more desirable IF they were affordable. But, there is a reason that the Rodale Institute is a charitable entity. If they could make money with organic farming, then it wouldn't be necessary for them to solicit donations.

That was a great report, Honeybee. Thank you.

Yes, thanks, Honeybee. I've seen similar reports
(for example this one: http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4060)
that also stress the negative impact that conventional agriculture has on our water and soil and discuss how unsustainable these practices are in the long term as well as in the face of climate change.

I'm very late in finding this thread. I agree totally that we need to now what's in our foods, and then make our choices.

However much I prefer organics, I have to truthfully say that taste is not a factor nor implicit in organic foods. They do not automatically taste better. I choose organic foods first because I have a damaged immune system that reacts badly with chemicals.

For me, the optimum foods are both organic AND high in brix. Only a high brix increases the nutritional value, which also happens to improve the taste. (How many tasteless cantaloupes have you bought in the last 20 years?) I now carry my refractometer with me to the farmer's markets; there's no point in buying tasteless organic foods that are low in brix just because they are grown without chemicals.

It takes several years to get garden soil to become really good soil. It's all about microbes. I've been working on mine for 5 years now, and I'm making progress.

I don't know that taste per se is better in organic products, but after years of eating nothing but organic apples I've noticed that if I do try a non-organic apple because I'm dying for a Winesap at a farm market, my lips burn! I had no expectations at all when I bit into it, and was very surprised to find that reaction. It's happened a couple of times.

I've certainly bought (and raised) lots of tasteless cantaloupes. You'd think our garden soil would be loaded with microbes by now!

This message was edited May 19, 2013 7:23 AM

Leslie, maybe your lips burn from the petroleum-based stuff sprayed on the apples to make them shiny and healthy-looking? Just a thought.

My work to increase the microbial population includes adding inoculated biochar (charred wood saved from my wood stove so I know the origin). I inoculate it with fresh urine, which is sterile and has about 4% urea. I also add fresh urine weekly around the plants, close enough to feed the microbes at the roots, but not close enough to burn the plants (but not right now since I'm taking some meds). Really good compost can feed the microbes throughout the year but I never seem to have enough.

I also work diligently every year to balance the micronutrients, a real battle because runoff from the hill above the house tends to carry soil into the creek just below the house.

Here's an electron microscope photo of some biochar. (Think of the cells as housing for microbes!)

darius - I read your blog almost everyday and am thankful that there are people such as yourself, and others, that are mindful of the fact that we have to pass this planet onto future generations in (hopefully) a better state than that which we found it!

http://2footalligator.blogspot.com/

CountryGardens

As I arose from my bed this morning, I couldn't help thinking how lucky I am. I will be 69 in a couple of months, and can truthfully say that I have no aches or pains. I take no medications of any kind.

I walk two miles several times a week with my daughter and our dogs. I could probably walk the five miles I used to do, but I can't persuade daughter to do so. I have more energy than some persons half my age!

Perhaps my good health can be attributed to a simple, healthy lifestyle and diet. Perhaps it's genetic. My mother will be 95 in August!

All this leads up to my anguish over current corporations taking liberties with our food system for the sake of the almighty dollar! Personally, I wish to avoid the plants they have tinkered with, especially since such tinkering has only been tested in their own labs. Let them use test-farms, such as Rodale has done. And in the span of 30 years let them prove that these altered food crops are safe for us, our children, and, indeed, all future generations!

Honeybee, Thanks. I'm always glad for anyone who sees something useful from my blog! BTW, I have to ask if you have ever read the very first post on my blog, some years and almost a thousand posts back? It doesn't relate to much of anything, but still tickles me when I think about it, LOL.

I see a growing movement/awareness to improve the conditions we have heaped on this lovely blue planet in the last 250 years (The Industrial Age). Not enough yet, but hopeful in spite of Monsanto et al, the USDA and the EPA! When gasoline hits $10+ a gallon, and a head of plain ole iceberg lettuce is $7 or more, maybe more people and things will change.

Darius, could be that spray; that would make sense.

We use the ashes from our wood stove on our garden, too. Hopefully it will make a difference eventually! We don't inoculate it, though.

Unfortunately, darius, when gasoline becomes $10 per gallon, and lettuce $7 per head, wages will have risen proportionately!

I will check out your first post.

CountryGardens,

Organic farmers have to conform to strict guidelines. I have not read this link (it's too long), but it will give you an idea of what they have to go through.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=ORGANIC_CERTIFICATIO

I therefore think this statement of yours, is unfair to organic farmers:

Honeybee, already wages have NOT kept up, nor has COLA in Social Security. What makes you think that will change, except maybe for CEO's?

Leslie, wood ashes on the garden increase the alkaline content, but don't do much else. I sift through my ashes for bits of charred wood for biochar, but seldom apply the ashes. I try to keep the pH of my garden neutral, and even a bit acidic around some plants. Blueberries and rhubarb love acid soils.