Soils, Soil Mixes, and Drainage Issuesby Tapla (Al).

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

You wrote:

Quote from speediebean :
If you want to see what it looks like when someone does it, just click on the post # of that specific post... for example, on the left side of THIS post, you'll see my name, zone, area I'm from, then a blue clickable link which is the post number of this post, then beneath that is the "quote" link. You won't be able to edit others' posts that way, but you will be able to see how they typed out something. (that's how I learned how to italicize .) =)


At first I thought you meant to click on the word "Post" to the left of the message -- it appears in blue, in small print, followed by the post number. That didn't work that way for me -- I still saw the post already formatted.

But I see what you mean -- if you instead click on the word "quote" to the left of someone else's post (it also appears in small print, in blue), you can see the formatting. I never realized that -- very helpful. Thank you so much!

I am clearly stalling -- got to get back to my day job!

This message was edited Jan 30, 2013 10:29 AM

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

Ahem-----

Anyone want to continue talking to Tapla about soils? Drainage? Composts?

Lets pick his brain while he is with us on this Thread......Thanks all. Gita

annapolis, MD(Zone 7b)

Dear tapla, I was wondering about your current thinking on the use of "water crystals" in soils for annual or perennial containers?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Judy

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

Good question, Judy!

I've been thinking about this as well. I don't use them as much as some people do--
but I have some--and there they sit.
I know one thing---you cannot mix them in the soil when they are dry--or they will wick every drop of
moisture out of the soil.
You are supposed to soak them first--let them expand--and THEN mix them in the soil.
Gita

Somewhere in, MD(Zone 7b)

You are? (supposed to soak them first then mix them). I thought you mix first, then water WELL. Hmmmm. Are we thinking of the same stuff, those gel crystal things that come in a jar?
I think there are some bagged soils that have these 'crystals' mixed in with them already... I wonder about all this stuff. (maybe that's what Judy was talking about?)

Dover, PA(Zone 6b)

Holly and I have been using the crystals for years in mixes for our baskets and containers. I do mixes in a large cart (about 20-25 gallons) and add the crystals dry, but I also sprinkle the mix as I turn it. I may use 4 gallons of water with half strength Peters at this point. I usually cover and let it set a hour or more before using it, then it may still want more water depending on the contents. We usually use this mix for 2 seasons as the crystals breakdown, reusing the mix in beds or compost. Ric

Somewhere in, MD(Zone 7b)

I found an interesting-looking product while perusing the web on this subject. In the write-up on the product, it suggests that it "Supplies a constant supply of water to your pants - " I wonder if anyone is aware of this helpful addition?






Dover, PA(Zone 6b)

I think someone in MA forum used to do a co-op with this, if I'm not mistaken. I know it can be a little pricey. Ric

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

Well--Jill is taking orders for the crystals. She uses them a lot. She's talking of a 50lb bag!

Holly/Ric--what you are doing is, in essence, the same thing. Letting them absorb the water first before you plant.

I was talking more as in this scenario:
You mix the dry crystals in your potting mix and then plant the plant--and water it in.
Put your plant on a shelf and forget about it. Guess where all the water will be going?

This may result in a dry plant--but you will think it is OK--since you just watered it .

Soaking them first would alleviate this problem. G.

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

I don't use them for 3 reasons. The first is, I generally want to reduce water retention in my soils so I need to water more often. Many growers are already using soils that support too much water retention to ensure plants have at least the opportunity to grow to their genetic potential within the limiting effects of other factors. Essentially that means if everything else was perfect, excessive water retention would be a significant limiting factor. Perched water, that is the soggy layer of soil at the bottom of the pot, limits root function and affects root health, so soils that minimize or eliminate perched water, or other grower practices that help to reduce the volume of perched water in soils, offer greater opportunity for plants to grow closer to their potential.

Second, the PAC gels commonly used can hold water very tightly, which means that though they absorb lots of water when available, they also tightly hold onto water at the opposite end of the cycle that would normally be available to plants.

Third, hydrogels as polymers are environmentally friendly, but depolymerization occurs very quickly. Nutrient salts (fertilizers)increase the rate of degradation, and it doesn't matter if the salts are derived from synthetic or organic sources. All nutrients plants normally take up through the roots are taken up as salts whether from organic or synthetic sources. When the acrylamide units break down, potassium acrylate and acrylamide are two by-products. Acrylamide is known to be a lethal neurotoxin and a carcinogen that is easily inhaled or absorbed through skin, and eventually the compound makes its way into the water supply. I think the risk is greater at repotting time than at potting time, so at a minimum you should wear rubber gloves and a mask when repotting plants in soils that contain PAC hydrogels.

Al

This message was edited Jan 30, 2013 7:05 PM

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

Thanks Al. Based on your advice I've steered clear of them in recent years -- I really appreciate your sensitivity to environmental concerns.

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Lol - I'm also sensitive to protecting my own butt. ;-) ..... and the way I approach growing in containers leaves little room for them to be useful to me. I have a jar that someone sent me years ago, but I don't think I've ever even used it.

Al

Somewhere in, MD(Zone 7b)

Thank you Al, that answers that for me: When I see them at work, do I want to buy them? NO.

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

Al--reading your comments above--a question went through my mind.

I work at a Home Depot--almost 15 years now. Started out in garden (5 years) but due to
both knees being replaced, and then going part time, I have been a Phone Operator now for about 9 years.
Still, during the growing season--Mid. April-end of June-- I am in garden on weekends. I hold clinics
and try to promote good habits and using the right things in their gardening.
I sort of am--the "resident gardening expert" in my store.

Many people ask me this and that--but seems a lot of them have this idea that putting rocks in the bottom
of a pot (that has no drain hole) ensures that all will be well. NOT!
I always tell them that--water can fill up the inch or so of the rocks, and then your plant will STILL be sitting in water.

This is what my question is about. You talk about parched water. What if there were enough rocks at the bottom
of a pot and the person was watering carefully, having the water always sit under the rocks , would that take care of this
parched water and the plant's roots sitting in it??? Or--would the roots seek out the water and end up rotting anyway?

Me asking this does not mean I have ever approved of doing this. But--I have to educate people WHY NOT.

Another question---
So many soils sold now "boast" about having "Moisture Control" soils. These, supposedly, have small amounts of the
water Crystals in their soils. Both MG and Scotts have it.
Soils with "moisture control" seem to be mushrooming! People just fall for everything....

I know you do not use regular soils or mixes, but the average person buys bagged soil mixes. Me too.
What are your thoughts on this trend given what you just said about this product?

Thanks, Gita

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

When I approach the question from the perspective of what is best for the plant, I can say that soils like regular Miracle-Gro, comprised of primarily small particles (peat, compost, coir, composted forest products ....), already hold too much water to be the best choice for our plants. Adding additional water retention to soils that already hold more water than desirable (for best plant performance) only amplifies the issue. Having to water more frequently is an inconvenience to the grower, but a benefaction for the plant.

Drainage layers don't work unless the size of the particles in the drainage layer are less than about 2.1X the size of the particles in the soil that sits atop the drainage layer. I'll offer some illustrations to explain. If a soil supports perched water, that is a layer of saturated soil at the bottom of the pot from which the water won't drain by the force of gravity alone, the height of the perched water table (PWT) will be the same in any pot - no matter what it's size or shape. Fresh Miracle-Gro soil usually supports from 4-6" of perched water, so let's say it supports 4" for the illustration/. In a pot that is 4" deep, after a thorough watering, the soil will be 100% saturated from bottom to top. In a 12" deep container, the PWT height will still be 4" tall, so about 67% of the soil will be free from perched water, so that set-up would be easier to grow in, though far from ideal. Now, let's imagine a 4" layer of peastone on the pots bottom as a "drainage layer". What will happen is this: There will be 4" of well-aerated peastone at the bottom of the pot, then 4" of soil that contains perched water, then 4" of soil with no perched water. Instead of the layer of soggy soil being at the bottom of the pot, the excess water "perches", just like a bird, in the soil immediately above the drainage layer, so in effect, you've simply reduced the volume of soil in the pot that provides a healthy root environment.

Best is to use a coarse mixture that supports little or no perched water and forget the drainage layer. If you think you have more water retention than you should have, use a wick or other technique that will reduce water retention immediately after watering. Even tipping the pot at a 45* angle after you water can eliminate a LOT of excess water - see the illustration below to see how pot shape impacts how much perched water a planting can hold.

Al

Thumbnail by tapla
Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

The height of the PWT in each drawing is the same, but you can easily see that the VOLUME of PW is different in each example. You can easily put these pictures to work for you with a little thought, to reduce the volume of PW you have to deal with, no matter how heavy your soils are.

Al

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

That is such a helpful illustration -- thanks!

Anne Arundel,, MD(Zone 7b)

My burning question- do seedlings have to start in a very fine soil, which seems from this discussion to be too retentive?

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

The bane of seedlings is soggy soil. I don't start many plants from seed any more, but when I do, I use a coarse soil and cover the seeds with a layer of fine material - usually peat or fines I've screened from the Turface I use in soils. I either use a Fogg-It hose nozzle to mist with or a hand spritzer. The roots really appreciate the aeration in coarse soils. Finer soils will work fine, but you have to work toward keeping the soil damp - never wet or soggy. As far as the root requirements go, that is a key factor. Then you have temperature, light, type of light, and air movement thrown into the mix, just for fun. ;-)

Al

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

Al--

Good explanation....It is slowly "sinking in" what you are talking about.

Just for the sake of argument-----IF a plant is watered carefully, NOT soaked to the bottom,
Is it possible to avoid having this parched water area?

A knowledgeable plant person would not pour a quart of water into a 10" pot, as this would "drown"
the plant. If watering carefully, and only when needed, water should not collect in the amounts
you are talking about to create this PWL. Is this a logical expectation?

Also--if using clay pots--this (the parched water layer) should not ever happen. Right?
Gita

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Just for the sake of argument-----IF a plant is watered carefully, NOT soaked to the bottom, is it possible to avoid having this parched perched water area? Yes, it's possible, and many people use this strategy hoping to minimize the negative effects associated with perched water columns. However, inherent in the strategy are two problems. One is that it's difficult to wet the entire soil mass w/o creating a perched water table in soils that support perched water. This often means dry spots in the soil/root mass that cause localized death of fine roots. Even if it doesn't kill the plant, regenerating new roots to replace those killed by dessication steals energy from the plant, energy that would otherwise have been devoted to new growth, more blooms, fruit ..... Secondly, watering in small sips ensures that all the residual dissolved solids in your tap water and fertilizer solutions remain in the soil. This accumulation of salts makes it increasingly difficult for plants to absorb water and the nutrients dissolved in water, and is substantially to blame for those burned leaf tips and margins that tend to be most noticeable around this time of year when central heating systems are working hard and humidity levels are low. Continually watering in sips will eventually result in sickly plants and cause 'fertilizer burn' even if you never fertilized, or are using only organic sources of nutrients, so it's a practice that should be avoided.

The ideal way to water is to moisten the soil to the point where water is almost ready to exit the drain (takes an educated guess). Let the plant rest for a few minutes, then water again so 15-20% of the total volume of water applied in both waterings exits the drain hole. Your pot should always be lifted above the effluent that drains into the saucer so the salts being flushed from the soil have no way of getting back into it.

A knowledgeable plant person would not pour a quart of water into a 10" pot, as this would "drown"
the plant.
Sure they would. Why not? ;-) In the summer time, I regularly apply at least a half gallon of water to my 10" pots, and in the winter time, I'm sure it's always more than a quart. The reason is ..... I can. The soils I make hold little or no perched water, so I can run a gallon of water through a 4" pot every day if I like, and no harm will come to the plant from over-watering. My succulents and cacti can stay outdoors on the growing benched in rain for a week straight w/o me being concerned for root health or root function ...... because my soils are very coarse and well-aerated. If watering carefully, and only when needed, water should not collect in the amounts you are talking about to create this PWL. Is this a logical expectation? We have seen why this approach is less than ideal - perhaps the lesser of two evils, but the lesser of 2 evils is still an evil. ;-) If you gain an understanding of how to put together a soil that will work FOR you, instead of against you, you can A) avoid watering in sips and water copiously every time you water, B) stop worrying about the effects of perched water, and C) remove accumulating salts from your list of things to worry about because you'll be flushing the soil every time you water.

Also--if using clay pots--this (the parched perched water layer) should not ever happen. Right? Not so. The material a pot is made from has no bearing on how much water the soil can/will hold. Using the same soil, the PWT in a plastic pot will be as tall as the PWT in a clay pot. The PWT won't persist as long in the clay pot (vs a plastic or ceramic pot) because the pot walls are gas-permeable and will allow air through from the outside and water vapor out of the soil from the inside. That is the primary reason clay pots are healthier for plants than pots made of materials that are not gas-permeable. Air exchange in the rhizosphere (root zone) is a good thing, as it helps rid sulfurous gases, methane, and CO2 that tend to accumulate in soils - especially poorly aerated soils.

Al

Thumbnail by tapla
Somewhere in, MD(Zone 7b)

Other than collecting rain water in rain barrels, are there any other reasonably cost-effective ways to avoid these salt deposit problems coming from our watering? (granted, the residual dissolved solids from fertilizers will still need to be flushed out, but still...)

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

Yes - the easiest way is to make a soil that allows you to flush the soil at will. I think this is the minimum standard by which a soil might be judged as appropriate or less than appropriate. If you can't water to adequately flush the soil without risking that the soil remains saturated so long you risk impaired root function or worse, root rot, it's a sure bet that you're leaving a lot of potential lying on the table and a more appropriate soil would help you regain some of that lost potential. Getting to the point where you don't need to fight your soil for every drop of vitality your plants enjoy is probably the biggest single step forward a container gardener can make at any one time. Over and over I see growers that were having lackluster or poor results who changed to a more suitable soil suddenly turn a corner when they find ways to deal with the excess water retention and byproducts of that factor which, in combination, was their primary limitation. My email is full of testimony to how valid this point actually is, and there are literally thousands of posts (especially at GW) that illustrate that what I'm putting forth is valid not only in concept, but in thousands of practical applications as well. I'll share some of my emails that have arrived in the last short while if it helps to convince. ;-)

Al

Somewhere in, MD(Zone 7b)

Seeing that soils are to be my main focus in school (followed very closely by agriculture), I will be THRILLED to read ANYTHING you have to say on the matter. If it's more convenient (or thread-friendly), you can D-mail me ANY time something might pop into your head that you think I may benefit from or enjoy. (yes, I think of reading like this as enjoyable and entertaining... then again, I read books like "Botanical Latin" for enjoyment as well, so go figure). ;)

What I find really fascinating is taking in what you have to say about soils in containers, and then converting it in my head to a larger 'in the ground' application. ...Or at least trying to. ;) I'm not nearly that far in school yet, but I'm really looking forward to getting there.

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

Al: I am totally converted. And I have stashed big bags of pine fines, grit and Turface in my garage, and I have made the necessary soil sifters. But I've procrastinated, in part just because I'm a procrastinator, but in part because I'm really worried that although I'll have healthier plants they may soon be dead plants. I'm not good about watering frequently (that's why I shy away from house plants) and we go away every so often -- it always seems we go away in a drought. I understand plants in the "gritty mix" need to be watered very very frequently. So I think mine may die of thirst. I suppose I could rig up an irrigation system - it is on my long to-do list -- but in the meantime, fear of being a benevolent murderer is what is holding me back. (I'm a little worried about installing an irrigation system because the last time we tried that, one of the hoses split and so we watered the neighborhood for a long time, but that is another story....)

You are clearly very meticulous. Not so much me....

Silver Spring, MD(Zone 7a)

Al, all of my houseplants are now in either 5:1:1 or the gritty.

Until about 2 years ago, I had killed literally every single houseplant I had ever owned. Since switching to your recipes, I have not killed any.

Happy, I do find the gritty mix to be somewhat unforgiving when I get lazy with the watering. But like Al said, the cacti and citrus really love it, and I can even leave them outside in the pouring summer rain without worrying about them rotting.

Al, I do modify the recipes for outdoor annuals. For elephant ears, I used 2 parts leaf mold instead of the peat moss, so it was 5:2:1. This formula worked really well for the EE, which hardly needed any supplemental watering at all during our harsh summer.

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

Sgardener -- do citrus plants not require a lot of water? What citrus do you grow? I like plants that don't require too much TLC.... I just have a needy household -- 4 kids (mostly grown but needy), 2 dogs (needy), 1 cat (needy), husband (what can I say?) and house (OMG). And then the infernal job.

Silver Spring, MD(Zone 7a)

Happy, as I understand it, citrus roots are prone to fungal infections and root rot if there is too much perched water, and they like to dry out between waterings. They apparently do well in both 511 and gritty. I do use Foliage Pro which has all the micronutrients and minerals that citrus likes. I wanted to go organic, but I couldn't get the right balance of the minerals with organic ferts.

I only have one citrus now, a dwarf Meyers lemon, and it's setting fruit! Whee! It was terribly neglected this summer and I hardly watered or fertilized it, only letting the occasional summer storm water it. It sulked for awhile but recovered pretty easily once I started caring for it, which only involves regular watering with a weak Foliago Pro solution about every 4-5 days or so. You may need to water less if it's in the 511.

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

Maybe I'll try a Meyer's. We are going back to Florida for the umpteenth time next weekend to continue clearing out my FIL's house (we fly in and out of Tampa this trip - he is (was) midway between Tampa and Orlando); maybe I could pick one up on the cheap.

Bay City, MI(Zone 6a)

I have no stake in what other growers use as a soil, but there are some things to consider. Uptake of water and nutrients isn't a passive or energy-free process; it's energy driven and adequate aeration is a key ingredient without which the root system cannot carry on transpiration, which is the energy-driven process on which the uptake of water/nutrients depends. From this we can clearly see that it makes good sense to try to maximize water retention while minimizing the negative impact that goal almost always has on aeration. We want the best of both worlds, but some combinations of soil ingredients simply make it impossible to have both. From the plant's perspective, a perfect soil would be one made of particles large enough ensure there is no inter-particulate water (water held in between the soil particles) to inhibit root function or degrade root health - it and would hold all of it's water inside the particles that make up the soil and in the interface area where the particles contact each other. That's exactly the model the gritty mix is based on. That type of soil ensures virtually no potential to be limiting where drainage and aeration are concerned, and is the model the gritty mix is designed after.

For those concerned that the gritty mix might not have enough water retention, it's good to remember that the soil is easily adjusted to suit your wishes by simply altering the ratio of ingredients, and this can be done without having to rely on a significant increase in perched water volumes for the additional water retention. Most of my plants in small containers are watered on a 4-day rotation. I have a few (6, or so) in VERY small pots (remember I have >200 bonsai) that I water every 2 days, and I have a few succulents in larger pots that get watered every 8 days.

Yes, I water on a schedule because it's easier for me to remember who gets watered when. The reason it is so often repeated that you should 'never' water on a schedule is because of the increased likelihood of root-related issues that that occur if you water again while there is still a significant volume of perched water in the soil. That I use soils that support little or no perched water relieves me of that concern. I would have to actually work hard at over-watering to notice any ill effects arising from my zeal.

The intervals described above are normal for me using a 1:1:1 ratio (lets, call it a 3:3:3 ratio for this illustration - same thing) of screened fir bark, screened Turface MVP, and #2 cherrystone or grower grit. Since Turface holds the most water of the 3 ingredients, I can increase water retention by increasing the amount of Turface in the mix and decreasing the amount of grower grit or cherrystone, so my soil with more water retention would look like:

4 parts of screened Turface MVP
3 parts of screened pine or fir bark
2 parts of grower grit or cherrystone

There are still 9 parts of material in the soil, and the organic fraction is still 1/3 of the mix o/a, but I've increased the water retention inside Turface particles by increasing the number of particles; this, w/o having to suffer any ill effects from perched water.

For a soil so simple, there is an amazing amount of consideration that went into implementing the concept described in the OP about water movement & retention: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1073399/

Al

Chevy Chase, MD(Zone 7a)

Ok, I'll try that. I've got a good local source of Turface, so I'm in good shape!

Anne Arundel,, MD(Zone 7b)

Using the FANTASTIC sifter that Ric made, I sifted some Kambark. A bucket of Kambark yielded 3/4 bucket of fine stuff that passed the screen, and 1/3 bucket of coarse stuff ( more air space in coarse so I can justify my proportions not adding up.
Also some portion of the screened stuff was VERY fine that Al might want us to sift out with even finer screen.

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