List of seed varieties to keep away from

here is just one study. there are many many more

I don't drink or smoke. I do take medicine BUT it is labeled so I am making a choice that the benefits out weigh the side effects.

How did farmers farm before GMOs? By cranking out more food each individual fruit or veggie contains less nutrients and energy, as a plant can only produce so much energy. So while people may not go hungry they aren't getting the nutrients or we have to eat twice as much to get them same nutrients.

I wonder if the farmland, where Round Up Ready crops are being grown and Round Up is being used regularly, will ever be able to grow anything else? Will it be a dead zone?

I think it's really important to realize that there is a huge difference between what is used in the Ag industry and what the home Gardner uses.

My father, now deceased, was with the department of Agriculture. He said that fields that were always used for the same thing were hard on the soil - and that Soy was particularly bad. I guess that it adds nitrogen, but sucks all the other nutrients out. This was before GM soy. So yes, I imagine that repeated plantings of Roundup resistant soy could leave a farmed-out semi-dead zone. I assume only semi-dead because I assume over time there would be Roundup-resistant invasive weeds developing along with the GM soy. I'm not saying the GM soy would cross with the weeds - but weeds could get the same result through natural selection.

Again, I avoid using anything that is a "-cide". And over-treating for a problem you ain't got is just asking for trouble. It is an invitation to get the problem - and a resistant form of it.

well said nicole

Nicole,
I had dropped out of this discussion, but i will reply to your post. Yes, it is financial suicide, and Phillip Morris is just a shadow of what it used to be. As a young man, i was almost always the only non-smoker in the group or on the job, but now that has reversed and smokers are rare. So, the product was bad and the product is failing in the market place.

But as long as people are willing to buy a product, it delays the final reckoning. Some people that use tobacco and Coca Cola live a long time and some people that never use either die young, and both groups have the right to choose whether or not they use it.

But anytime a product loses its customer base, it is no longer viable. As long as some people believe smoking is worth the risk, whether it suits you or not, that is their choice.

You chose some products that pretty well proves my statement. The financial damages from the manufacturers of Thalidomide, and Asbestos put those specific operations out of business which is financial suicide. The manufacturers in some cases had other products, but the damages they paid were many times the profits they made from those products.

I read within the last year or two, that so many people were dying from mosquito bites in other countries that they are again manufacturing and using DDT, so i am not sure just where that stands on your list.

But i repeat my earlier remark that i think you have the perfect right to choose not to use the GMO, but is it really your place to make dubious or unproven claims against a product, trying to change other people's minds and convince them to do as you say?

I do not think it is my right to try to talk you into using something you do not like.

Ernie

Now lets get with the good that Round Up & GMO's are doing.
1930's there was the dust bowl. Wheat was a very good price. So farmers plowed up the prairie grasses & cultivated it until no weeds grew. Then it got dry, wheat didn't grow, so the wind blew all the loose soil away.
Now with weed control, farmers no longer plow. Do not have to cultivate 2 or 3 times a season. So soil stays put, soil is healthy & crops thrive.
This part of the country received very little rain in June, July & August, the major growing months for corn & soybeans. Yield was about 90% of expected crop.
Corn stalks & bean straw are mixed into the top layer of the soil, not plowed under. This system is now collecting the moisture from winter rains & snow.
We are in the middle of a blizzard as I type. I gaurentee the snow will stay in the crop residude. 20 years ago the ditches would be black with soil blowing off the fields.
Now if this isn't progress for saving the earth for future generations, keep up your hounding of corperations.
By the way most family farms now days are corperations.

CG,

I agree, and we lived on the just east of the Dust Bowl in Eastern Kansas, until 1936, so i do appreciate what you are talking about.

People that buy clothes and food probably do not realize how much more expensive everything would be if farmers did not have the chemicals to help them keep their costs down.


Ernie

if i had to pay more for things that did not include carcinogens, that seems a fair trade off. hmmm cancer causing cheap things or non cancer causing more expensive things- everyone makes their own choice.
and, if the bees all die off, it wont matter anyway cause the entire food chain for the planet will be gone within 4 years of that happening, if not sooner. no bees, no food end of story

I think a lot of it has to do with choice. But if it's not labeled we can't make a choice. I don't think people realize how wide spread GMOs are in grocery stores in the grain section. All of the above may be dangerous but we can choose to drink or smoke. Regardless of what we believe to be positive or negative we can't make a choice if we don't know.....

From what I've read there are already "super" weeds that are immune to herbicides. I just wonder what years of spraying Round Up on a certain area will do to it? I have a feeling I know, but it will take years to find out and by then it will be too late.

If $4 billion a year in profits at Altria is financial suicide, a lot of companies would love to be so lucky. Granted it's not as much as they used to make, but a lot of people still got filthy rich.

I totally agree that people should have the option to choose to partake of GMOs or not and to make an informed choice. Sadly, these products are not in any way labelled and realistically cannot be completely avoided at this point. I'd be much happier of someone had merely tried to "talk me into using something I don't like" instead of removing the alternatives.

Nicole, I am sorry to see you take partial information about Altria, as with Monsanto and GMO, to form a distorted impression.

Altria dropped from # 11 on the Fortune 500 list to # 134, and has laid off thousands of employees. They are a conglomerate, and the dwindling cigarette business is not their only asset. Whether that is financial suicide, or just a slow death, it is not a good trend.

Why do you seem to feel so much resentment towards people that got filthy rich? Tobacco is not a business i would want to be in, but they were providing a product and service that their customers demanded.

The only point i have wanted to make in this discussion is the simple truth that if we are going to protect our own freedoms, we must allow other people to have the freedom, too, to do as they please. So whether we use it or like it or not, we absolutely need to let other people smoke, drink, eat GMO food, etc., and then we will have the right to do, or not do, what ever we choose.

I will let you win the rest of this discussion, as I have said all i wish to say.

Ernie

On the whole I agree with most of the above BUT I do have one little pet peeve -

Colorado was originally a mining state. Our mining industry and history are pretty well forgotten. But I would like to remind folks that asbestos, arsenic, lead, cadmium, and quite a few other poisons are NATURALLY occurring minerals or compounds in certain rock and soil formations. And natural disasters are still Disasters. Natural isn't always synonymous with good! That is why I want to know how Roundup reacts with heavy metals in water - it could be a problem here if it removes natural traces then later breaks down and releases them in larger amounts.

Also, Thalidomide was never legally prescribed in the U.S.A. - the FDA delayed approving it, Thank God. The Thalidomide babies in North America got the drug out of Canada.

I am all for Bio-Diesel, but "free choice" folks - you have to admit, planting large-scale GMO crops next to a small scale Organic Farmer just isn't neighborly! It could cost the organic farmer his organic certification and he would lose his market and income.

Organic certification. Do you know what it means ? Probably not. One rule is there must be a buffer of 30 feet between organic & non organic crops. Seed corn companies require much more than that, I think it is 300 feet. Drive down the road where they raise seed corn & check it out. Most of the time there is not another regular corn field within a ¼ mile.
If 30 feet can mean you are eating organic food, you are fooling yourself.
People rant & rave, but have no idea what they are talking about.
Go look up stuff on farming, not just some persons private opinion.

I think Admin should take a look at the direction of this discussion---

Always a hot button topic but I don't see the need to control this thread.
There is no outward hostility and both sides are being presented well.

I, for one, don't have a strong opinion and can see some of both sides. I find it most interesting.

True gardeners will always have strong opinions but also tend to practice courtesy. Very interesting.

JoParrot has a point. I am getting a pop-up ad for information GMOs & farming on this page. I think I will bow out or this thread and contact the Extension Service or State University.

I hope this link will take you to a search I did limited to .edu sites (I am skeptical of .com and .org sites):

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=GMO&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=.edu&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=



This message was edited Dec 10, 2012 10:54 AM

PG,
Please share what you find out about the effect of Roundup on heavy metals, from the sources you mention.

As an ex-farmer right on the bank of the beautiful Kootenai River, i was always concerned about the problems of chemicals reaching the water, but until you mentioned the Roundup/Heavy Metal concern, i thought the major problem was with nitrates. I am interested in what you find out from unbiased sources.

Ernie

Not many discussions going on, on DG anymore, so it's enjoyable to discuss a topic like this.
I try not to take sides, because we need many of these things, weather good or bad, or if we agree or disagree.

Here is one from the National Institute of Health that seems to say that Roundup helps bind/sequester metals except mercury - mercury uptake increased in the aquatic plant tested (So the plant is sequestering it instead of the Roundup? I'm not sure whether this is good or bad):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15878796

Here is one from Monsanto saying that in solution, negatively charged glyphosate can bond with positively charged metal ions - making both partially unavailable. They don't recommend combining them in a spray.

Oops forgot the link for Monsanto:
http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Documents/CPU_roundup_ready_crops_glyphosate_and_micronutrients.pdf

But still no info on what happens when/if the chemical bonds break down. I sent an email to the National Pesticide Information Center. They have information on Glyphosate, but it doesn't cover interaction with metals.

This message was edited Dec 10, 2012 2:24 PM

PG,
Thanks,
Ernie

If it was a simple as letting someone else grow or eat GMO foods and those that don't want to don't have to, then I'd be more accepting. Unfortunately too much research has been done proving how disastrous for the planet, animals, and humans GMO products are (Please watch Dr. Mercola's interview with Dr. Huber). The main reason GMO seeds have been banned by many other countries is the fact that GMO can contaminate other crops, causing farmers to no longer be able to save their seed, and in some cases the company sued the farmers even though it wasn't their fault that Mons. GMO crops contaminated their fields. CountryGardens and Ernie are pro-GMO but I think they just don't know enough of what has already happened to people's health, the loss of their farms, massive suicides over a ruined way of life because of GMOs. No one will ever make me believe they're okay. They're not. This country is so owned by the corporations that we can't even get labels like other countries. I am only one voice amongst millions who've done the research. I'm all for people being able to advance, to make money and even lots of money, because that's what freedom means- the ability to prosper and have a good life. This issue isn't about that at all. Some reading and watching the documentaries and videos on this subject might just change the minds of those who aren't alarmed.

Dr Mercola is far from non-biased- although I agree with him on some things, he can not be accepted as the ultimate authority on subjects he addresses. As with all things internet- you just can't believe all you see, hear, or read. Our society has become one of "be afraid- be very afraid", and at some point one has to take the reins and decide for themselves, based on common sense- yes, definitely be active in educating yourself, but do not believe all- and don't be intimidated by panic mongers.

This message was edited Dec 10, 2012 4:59 PM

I trust him more than M-onsanto, you can bet on that.

Why ?

Because when bias is based on truth, that's a good kind of bias. You should read more about him and others who are on the side of labeling and prohibiting the infiltration of dangerous foods. I don't trust forums totally either, because some of these big companies hire people skilled in social networking and propoganda on behalf of the particular company. I just don't want people to be hurt by the food they're eating, nor their livestock, nor their farm, nor their pets eating the stuff in their food. I don't know why people can't just care about others and love them. Why does there have to be all this awful stuff happening... Oh well. I've had my say. Believe it or don't, it's okay.

Man, I am convinced that there are a bunch of old hippies, tree huggers, and jeese, even geeks, on this topic, and I am very honored to live in this great country where we can all "chew the fat" in forums like this, and learn from each other! I appreciate EVERY comment.
Yep, count me in the "Old Hippie" category.

I have spent quite a bit of time researching these topics the last two days. Obviously very Controversial!! Here is the facts/trivia I have picked up: I don't want to upset anyone, but it seems like GMO cotton really has decreased pesticide use, helping the environment over-all. The GMO corn that had pollen that was toxic to Butterflies is no longer on the market - but not because of the butterflies. Other GMO corn that has Bt incorporated into the leaves but not the pollen should have seen the pesticide reduction that cotton has seen, but hasn't. So it should be doing more good than it is. I am undecided about the Roundup-ready GMOs because I am undecided about Roundup. The GMOs that have been approved by the USDA weren't approved because of pressure from corporations - the were approved because of pressure from farmer's organizations and associations, and because the FDA couldn't find anything wrong with them. Vegetable oil is the grocery store product most likely to contain GMOs, so all of us that are using it to avoid saturated fats have already consumed GMOs. All GMOs must be approved as food safe even if they are going to be used for Bio-Diesel, because they tried having separate standards and there was cross-contamination in the storage, sale, & processing after it left the farm (all field corn is handled the same, and gets mixed together, after the farmer sells it).
Roundup is considered one of the safer herbicides. That means it is safer than 2-4-D, not safer than organic or mechanical control of weeds. So if your grower is going to use a herbicide anyway, Roundup might be preferable to 2-4-D. I am concerned about over use of any pesticide - including "organic" pesticides - and I am concerned that Roundup-ready GMOs encourage overuse. I am still trying to get the facts on Roundups chemical interaction with metals - both good nutrient mineral metals and toxic heavy metals.

I got my information from mostly .edu and a few .gov sites (and from Monsantos own guidelines concerning micronutrient metals). I avoided .org and .com sites because they just weren't impartial enough with the facts to be credible with me.

PG.
Thanks for the report. I am sure that took a lot of time and effort. I will add two comments.

Biodiesel has an uncertain future until Crude oil reaches the 150 to 200 dollar a barrel range so it can compete price wise, and especially so if and when the country runs out of money for subsidies.

As to your concern about overuse of Roundup as GMO crops become more common, there will always be some careless farmers and employees, but the cost of the chemicals is an important economic factor and that is probably by far the best control against overuse on well run farms.

Ernie

Ahem.

We have historically had a no-political-discussion rule in place here; it was iron-clad in the days following 9/11 and has slowly relaxed over the years. Now we try to take a fairly hands-off approach unless a thread turns from discussion to debate. (And since that is a somewhat subjective call, we occasionally must make a choice that is undoubtedly unpopular with at least half the thread participants.)

In this case, please know that Melody and I are aware of this thread, and we both commend all the posters for remaining relatively civil and constructive in your comments. If it turns into personal attacks, we'll have to shut it down - but we really hope we don't need to do that.

Thanks, Terry.

A recent "research" test was run in France concerning cancer from GMOs. It came up with a result that GMOs caused cancer. Turns out that the strain of rats or mice were strains that were bred to develop cancer so that cancer drugs could be tried out on them!! Obviously the research was dismissed by more reliable groups, but you have to wonder how long the misinformation circulates among certain groups.

Anyway, I am not totally happy with big ag, but I don't like the control of our lives that many liberal groups are acquiring either.

The only downside I see- and I may have my subjects mixed- but the lawsuits potential for pollination of non GMO growers products needs to have limits for things out of their control, it actually has nothing to do with the benefits of the plants- I LIKE some from each side of the fence.

>> A wise old doctor told me one time that there was a little bit of poison in every prescription drug he prescribed, and it was the poison that made them effective.

It's a truism in pharmacology that "the dose makes the poison". Most things, and almost every drug, is toxic if you take too much, effective if you take just the right amount, and ineffective or worse if you take too little.

If you take too little of an antibiotic, you only slow down the bugs it should have killed, until those with a little resistance form most of the population. Then the most resistant of THOSE are selected for the next time someone takes a low dose of that antibiotic. That's how we got where we are now, with almost every infection resistant to multiple antibiotics.

I think it was Mercury that was considered the patron deity of both doctors and poisoners. Also, of merchants and thieves, diplomats and liars. He really went both ways.

I agree with a post from Nicole, way way back.. The most reasonable approach to GMOs that I know is to be dubious about transgenic organisms - those with genes received from another species. I have a harder time getting worked up about genes being moved from (say) a rare wild variety of corn into a productive commercial variety. (That kind of thing happens all the time in nature.)

I'm more suspicious of genes being moved from bacteria into higher plants. But that is very rarely done. Thanks for listing the examples, Nicole.

And, very tentatively and speculatively, just in my own mind, I'm not cliaming that anyone well-eductaed on this subject believes i9tg, IF the newer crop genetic engineering techniques make moved genes more "mobile" within a plant's genome or in the genome of anything it cross-pollinates with, THEN I might worry that we are making all varieties it can cross with, less genetic ally stable. But I don't know if the modern G.E. techniques are at all like what I'm thinking of (plasmid and cosmid transformation in bacteria). This is purely speculative. But antibiotic resistance in bacteria has "jumped on buses", and now travel from one strain to another faster than they used to, because they have accumulated in plasmids that can jump from strain to strain (and, less easilyh, from species to species and genus to genus).

But more than any of that, I'm concerned about the simple and unarguable the fact that a very high % of all corn grown is now one of just a few very highly specialized and inbred strains, instead of the entire genetic universe of multiple, traditional landrace gene populations.

But whaddaya gonna do if they are 2-3 times as productive? Or 4-5 times? If the whole world were so prosperous that everyone was willing and able to pay 2-3 times as much for food, and use 2-5 times as much land and water, there would be many solutions that would satisfy everyone's concerns. Until that daydream-day, we probably all have to make trade-offs.

And most of all, if I did understand it correctly, I resented engineered crops with a sterility gene built in that can transfer that sterility to their neighbors' crops via pollen. I would have favored that being subject to suing penalties at least, and maybe even criminal penalties. It would have been "genetic pollution", if I understand the "terminator gene" concept correctly (F2 sterility) . Since everything I've read has been heatedly partisan, I don't claim to KNOW if any or all of this is true. I see that Monsanto pledged NOT to market it, back in 1999. Now they rely instead on it being illegal to save seeds from their "designer crops".

Rick, I believe that some Roundup seeds are nearing their patent expiration....lol

BEEOLOGICS, the world's leading research firm on bee colony collapse disorder was bought by MONSANTO in Sept of 2011. A GMO Franken-Bee has now been created and will soon be released into the environment and will inevitably effect the already endangered natural population.
These bees which are immune to the insecticides implanted in GMO corn will cross pollinate into neighboring fields, and accelerate the demise of organic corn stocks. Field trials are already being conducted in the US and Hawaii. It won't be long until this Bio-technology is fast tracked thru the FDA and GMO honey is in the system.
Goto: http://www.Beeologics.info/products.asp
Please contact your legislators and share this link with everyone.

RG.
Is it possible that this super bee, which i have not heard of before, might actually solve the potentially disastrous problem we would all have without the bees of some kind to do the pollination?

If it does, we owe great thanks to Monsanto, as the overall pollination is countless times more important than any changes, harmless or otherwise, that might be caused to the organic plants.

Thanks for pointing out the info about the Super Bee. I just hope it is true.

Ernie

I read a bunch of the Beelogics site & didn't see anything related to GMO.

Bee decline -
They haven't found any link, so this is just wild speculation on my part - but wonder if the bee decline is caused by hauling them around on Semi-trailers to pollinate crops. It seems like the travel would be unnatural and stressful, which would weaken their immune systems. Then the colonies would be unnaturally large - so that would hasten the spread of any problem. And they would drive these stressed bees farther than they would travel on their own, spreading problems through stationary bee populations along the route. I had a friend tell me that she had witnessed over-heated bee hives on a truck being hosed-down at a rest-stop. I have wondered about the life of traveling bees ever since.