Brenda, I love your flowers but are even more envious of your great clean stems and leaves. Mine always looked tattered and burned. And I do not think it is from the heat.
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 5
Hi Brenda,
I echo Sharon's comment about envying how healthy and disease free your zinnias seem to be. Have you sprayed them with something, like a fungicide of some kind. My zinnias now almost all have at least some powdery mildew by now, I did spray some with a fungicide, which kept the new growth clean, but didn't do anything about the mildew that was already on my zinnias. This has been the worst year for powdery mildew on my zinnias in the last 20 years.
Your first zinnia, the one on the left, is your best breeder in those three. It has those "true dahlia" shaped petals.
The middle one, the two-headed one, is not my cup of tea. I have zinnias like that from time to time. At first I saved seeds from one, and even crossed it with some other zinnias, because of the novelty. Sure enough, the broken-headed trait showed up in some of the progeny. To me, the two-headed, three-headed zinnias just look defective. So now I cull them.
Your third zinnia has petals somewhat like those on the first zinnia, only not quite as well formed.
Your first zinnia is my favorite, and since it has some pollen, I would use that to self any still receptive stigmas on the flower, with the idea of getting as many selfs of it as possible. I am including pictures of some current specimens. Some were used as females with crosses involving tubular toothy zinnias and Razzle Dazzle specimens.
We had a recent frost warning (turned out to be a false alarm), so I threw some remay ag-fabric over some of my low hoops to protect some of the breeders. Also a few pics of "normal" zinnias.
ZM
You guys are really observant!!! You know - the foliage is in good shape, my thinking is that because the zinnia were planted July 10th (which is probably the latest I have ever planted them there), and they were planted in an adequately moist, but now wet, area - they have thrived - persay. They have not been sprayed with fungiside, etc... I may have applied - very little - 12-12-12 fertilizer at planting time and shortly after they sprouted and came up I applied a small quantity of Preen (which I think was a good idea to help control other vegetation). I have other zinnia in 3 other gardens on higher ground, and their foilage there, is weathered - for lack of a better word. I'm sure some of the zinnia in my other gardens here, have the powdery mildew and I probably should already have taken them out, but I may leave them for the birds to winter on. My thinking is that zinnias and their foliage do great when they are young plants, but after they have some age on them, and have been deprived of rain and once the temps get in the 90's, they begin to decline. I Know that none of the zinnia that I have planted in late April or May (in any year) have ever had quality foliage late in the summer season. It is almost like you need to have two plantings.
Zen - Thanks for the info on the double headed zinnia. I trust your knowledge on them. I'll follow suit with you on those. I enjoyed seeing pictures of your zinnia (or anyone elses) growing and the protective shield you had applied. Glad you did not get the frost. If you get frost, I'm sure to get it next because I am to the E of you. I have been gathering seed from my tagged zinnia and I have a heck of a lot of seed and still more to collect. My two long rows of zinnia have recently grown together, but as soon as the rainy days stop, I'll put on my boots and work my way down between the rows and see what new beauties are there now. Enjoyed seeing pix's of your normal zinnia - I refer to those as cactus zinnia.
Keep on enjoying the zinnia!
Hey Zen, our family is rooting for the Royals.
Hi Sharon,
We are also rooting for the Royals. Since we are in a rural area we get our TV over-the-air with a directional antenna. The Royals playoff games have been blacked out here, but we listen to the games over the radio. The World Series won't be blacked out. Hope the Royals make the series, and take the series.
Hi Brenda,
Your zinnias are in amazing shape. I did make Fall plantings in mid and late July, and they are in fairly good shape, but their flowers may not have time to make seeds. Fortunately none of them have been "breeder quality" so that isn't an issue. l quit pollinating zinnias near the end of September.
I have planted several somewhat immature embryos from green seeds, and they have produced some weak plants that may or may not "make it". It's analogous to premature babies. But I have also planted some fully developed embryos from green seeds, and they seem to be developing normally in my indoor zinnia project. A green seed is reasonably well developed three weeks after successful pollination. At two weeks they are very marginal. I have lost several two-week embryos seedlings. Their roots and stems are very spindly and their roots seem barely able to absorb nutrients.
But the three-weeks-plus embryos seem to be doing fine. I am coming to believe (from reading and from observation) that green seed embryos need plenty of phosphorous to make new tissue, so I am going to switch from a normal growth formula to a blooming formula for my seedlings, because the blooming formula has more phosphorous.
One big goal of my indoor zinnia project is to develop some hybrids between the Razzle Dazzles and larger zinnias, to develop a larger version of the Razzle Dazzles. I also want to develop a strain of "needle petaled" zinnias, which are just a version of the tubular petaled zinnias with very narrow petals. In a way, they remind me of a dandelion seedhead, but without the parachutes on the seeds. I am attaching a few pictures of them. I hope to grow several examples of them indoors and do a lot of cross pollination involving them.
Keep on enjoying your zinnias. I am actually envious of your dahlia petaled specimens. I'll be on the lookout for some of those in my zinnia patch next year. In the past I have seen some similar ones in my zinnia patch, but I neglected to save seeds from them. I have so many different goals for my zinnias that I wonder if I might "have too many irons in the fire".
That last picture shows that some of my "toothy-tubular" zinnias, when they are "young", can have a similar look to the needle-petaled zinnias. The truest "needle petals" are #2 and #3. I hope to have some of those growing indoors this Winter.
ZM
like #2
Zen - I see what you are talking about with your, "needle petals" - indeed needles. Like a starburst.
I did walk among my two long rows of zinnia today (with boots of course). Still raining off and on. I gathered some colorful blooms with long stems, just opening, in hopes of drying and them keeping their color. Will see. I found a few more blooms unique to the regular zinnia. Did not have camera in hand, so no pix's.
I have no greenhouse, so when the frost stops the zinnia activity here, I'll have to wait until spring to begin again. About a 6 month break. Will give me a chance to sort various seeds and reorganize myself.
Hi Robin,
"... love those detailed close-ups."
I'm glad you appreciate my photography. Here is a photo of a "Razzle Dazzle" zinnia, followed by a close up of the same bloom, which was merely cropped from the original photo. I think over half of my zinnia blooms have some kind of flower spider in them. Sometimes they are so small you wonder what kind of "prey" it could overcome.
ZM
Hi Brenda,
I haven't emphasized them much this year, but I am also working on a strain of "toothy" petaled zinnias. Attaching a picture. Some of my previous messages have also included pictures of toothy specimens. This Winter I hope to grow some hybrids between Razzle Dazzles and the Toothy types.
I am curious what the F1 hybrids will look like, and even more optimistic about what might pop up in the F2 hybrids. Those F2 recombinations of genes between the Toothy and Razzle Dazzle grandparents will be exploring some new territory in what zinnias can become.
ZM
ZM, I would be upset if the games were blacked out. We are blacked out on San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles and Arizona baseball and football. They are all at least 4 hours away by car and it is absolutely crazy.
I love all your information and flowers everyone.
Way past my bed time. Hugs to you all, Sharon....
Thanks Z...you know too much. Yes I admit it, I like to look at the critters close-up too!
ZM,
The weather here is way better than a normal October. The next 3 days we are supposed to have temps in the low 80's. My heart skipped a beat yesterday morn when we woke to 35 degrees and ice was on the windshields of vehicles. Luckily my Wetland Garden, where my best zinnia are right now, basically survived. I notice a few of the zinnia are a little cooked (persay) on their tops, but all in all they still look great. I picked several bouquets today. Nothing like sharing and having a few in the house to enjoy all the time. I'm even trying to dry a few, as they are just beautiful this year.
Picture taken today.
Beautiful Brenda...still!
this is really some very inspiring work, ZM - i thought for a while to start hybridizing, but always feared the timescale - i only thought about peonies or passifloras (which both take years to flower), but after this I really think i should give annuals a try - I might limit myself to 2 generations per year though, keep it outside only. at least with calendula and love-in-a-mist I know 2 generations will work - they already do this on their own... and both won't be instant frost kills as the zinnias. I've already ordered the book you mentioned above.
as to your spectacular flowers: keeping to the tradition of naming flower shapes after other flowers I'd call the tubulars which open up at the end "Lantana-Flowered", especially if the center has a different color, and there was one reminding me of centaurea montana - the tubular with the wide split ends. Both very impressive!
Hi pmmGarak,
I like zinnias because they are fast to show you results. I considered calendulas but they didn't have enough color range for me. Zinnias have all colors but blue. I am guessing that your location is not favorable for hot weather plants. And Nigella damascene prefer cool weather, so they would be suitable for your climate. They don't have any yellows, oranges, or scarlets and their reds are a bit weak. But they have a similar color range to Bachelor's Buttons, which are also an annual. Do lupines grow well in your area? They have a rather complete color range.
I have second generation seedlings from my current indoor zinnia project. Many of them are hybrids between hybrids, so I may get some unusual results.
ZM
Happy New Year everyone. Sharon in cold Las Vegas. Unusual for us. I really do have a am enough coat. I think I may need to go shopping.
Hi ZM,
my climate is somewhat unpredictable - I've had first frosts between 5th of October and 19th of December, I have last frosts between end of march and the proverbial ice saints (I just realized through my online dictionary that the term does not exist in English - there is a high chance for frosty weather around the 15th of may in central Europe). 2014 I had an extremely dry spring (even lost buds on my tree peony to drought) and quite a wet summer. problem is: we can get continental type weather from the east with hot summers and severe freezing, and Atlantic weather with mild and wet winters and summers. so yes, I should go with something robust.
I see your point in Calendula, Nigella seems to have more parameters, including shape and color of the capsules, in bloom and afterwards and a wider color range, and they tend to change colors over time. Plus: they look beginner friendly by openly presenting all the male and female parts....
Lupines are more or less biannuals, if I remember correctly? I didn't get that when starting out gardening and was so disappointed when they disappeared after 2 or sometimes three years. I'd say their color range is too perfect to explore it any further? I'd personally prefer Alcea rosea as a biannual, but they are cursed with malvae-rust around here, and breeding towards disease resistance is quite a difficult criterion to select. Digitalis could be one way to go, as I have a lot of places which get a few hours of shadow a day. Their color ranges from white to deep purple through the purpurea species, and grandiflora was used to get yellow and orange to the mix. could be interesting...oh, so many ideas, so little space in the garden...
Seeing your first picture I finally see how the winter generations can work - artificial lighting is another thing I didn't consider before. Well, maybe if i do get addicted....
Have you ever tried to get stable forms of your crossings? I've read about tomatoes that they need about 7 generations of selection to get stable even though they usually pollinate themselves. I wonder how long this takes with forms that are self-sterile?
Oh, and, of course: Happy new year!
Garak/Martin
We are iris breeders, not annuals. Plenty of color there.
I love Iris (especially my I. Bucharica) but I'm not good at sowing them - I tried some I. sibirica and some dietes (ok, no iris, but close) and did not get a single plant, no matter how much refrigerating and such efforts... I'd say i start with plants who actually want get out of their seed ... the closest thing to an Iris i ever got to germinate was a Tigridia Van-houttei...and that one is yet to survive its first winter.
The Junos only last a couple years here in New England. We grow the bearded & the Siberians. I must get some zinnias here for the summer. I prefer the dwarf which is not what ZM does. ☺
Hi Garak/Martin,
Yes, lupines are biennials. That would limit you to one generation per year. Snapdragons are annuals that prefer cool weather, and I think there is room to breed them. They have a complete color range (also lacking true blue), but mutations have made several variations on their flower form available. And their plant habit varies quite a lot as well. And the individual blooms can have one color or two colors and possibly even more. Digitalis can be quite attractive, although I think it is also a biennial or possibly a short-lived perennial. Searching for a good breeding subject in the cool weather category can be a bit challenging.
" Have you ever tried to get stable forms of your crossings? "
I have and I am currently working to stabilize some forms. Theoretically you can get a zinnia stable in about 5 generations of inbreeding. And theoretically you could grow that many generations in a year if you combined indoors and outdoors culture. (My second generation seedlings of my indoors zinnias are growing now and I am on track to be planting a third generation indoors before Spring.)
The funny thing about stabilizing a particular zinnia is that, each generation, you see slightly improved versions (and sometimes more than slightly improved versions) of what you are trying to stabilize, and it is impossible for me to avoid the temptation of using those slightly or more than slightly improved forms. And that continues. Each generation of "stabilization" becomes instead a generation of incremental improvement. I don't know where that process stops, or even if it stops.
I have several ongoing zinnia projects and, this Spring, I will add yet another one -- namely simply larger zinnia flowers. Without trying, I have several zinnias in the six-inch diameter size range every year, so now I will start selecting (and intercrossing) the largest specimens as the basis for this project. I have had a couple of zinnias in excess of 7 inches across in past years, and I have seen catalog descriptions of 8 inches across, so I think that is possible. I am curious how far that project can go. Some Dahlias are over a foot across. I am hoping that a mutation will break the 8-inch barrier for zinnias. And crossing weird stuff together can induce mutations. Fortunately, I have some weird stuff in my zinnias.
ZM
>> I have several zinnias in the six-inch diameter size range
>> And crossing weird stuff together can induce mutations. Fortunately, I have some weird stuff in my zinnias.
You go, ZM!
We all keep hoping, I'm sure I'm correct, that some day you will offer some of your genetics around, probably saying things "these aren't FULLY improved" and "they aren't VERY stable" and "these colors will ONLY give you convulsions, not strike you blind". But we would be thrilled!
Hi Corey,
"We all keep hoping, I'm sure I'm correct, that some day you will offer some of your genetics around..."
I understand that some of my home-hybridized zinnia pictures could inspire a wish that I would share some seeds, because many of these do go beyond what you can buy commercially.
However, I think that the best way to make these available to other gardeners would be for some seed company to acquire my seed stock, increase their quantities in commercial fields, and offer them commercially. There is past precedent for following that path.
If a seed company were to contact me about acquiring my seed stock, they probably would want to have an exclusive on that, and they wouldn't want to hear that I had been "offering some of my genetics around".
So, much as I would like to share some of my new zinnias, I think the best way to do that would be through a commercial release by an existing seed company. And you are right, that I think my present zinnias are not "FULLY improved" or "VERY stable", but I hope to develop a seed stock that would be suitable for acquisition by a seed company. And I very much enjoy the process of working toward that goal.
But my primary goal is still to have fun breeding my own zinnias.
ZM
I never thought about that. It could be like trying to sell a software product that had already been passed around as freeware or open source.
Good point!
Hi ZM,
I remember you wrote about using green zinnia seeds to speed up generations - any idea if that could work with Ipomoea as well?
Hi Martin,
I would be very surprised if green seeds didn't work with Ipomeas. I would expect it to work nearly universally. As long as the embryo has had time to approach its ultimate size, it should be ready to develop into a plant.
If you wish, you can remove the embryos from the green seeds and grow plants from embryos instead of seeds. I have done that on several occasions with zinnias. But it is easier to just remove a "wing" from a green zinnia seed to give the embryo immediate access to water, and plant it that way. (The seed coat of a green seed is impervious to water because it is still living tissue.)
The technique for breaching the green seed coat of Ipomeas may be a bit different. I use an X-Acto knife blade on zinnia seeds. A scalpel might be better. Some people scarify dry morning glory seeds by rubbing them on sandpaper. That might work with green seeds as well.
The zinnia green seed coats will die and become water permeable in two weeks or so if you aren't in a big hurry. Ipomeas green seed coats may vary from that.
ZM
actually, I wasn't brave enough to try - now I've waited till the capsules started to become brown, and then started the seed the usual way - with watering for 2 days. After 2 more days in my sandy seed mix, the first one is breaking through - seems like fresh seed is a plus in Ipomoea. Now I'll have to wait for the first true leaf to see if it was only self-fertilization (which would be OK) or if I got my first hybrid... My 1849-book states that half-empty seed pods are a sign for interspecies hybrids - I had 2 capsules, one with 3 and one with one seed, both not reaching the full Ipomoea 4...
ZM,
Just waiting on time to plant my main garden full of saved zinnia seed. I had fun hybridizing with them last fall and prior, so I'm excited to see the outcome. Hope to be planting soon after Memorial Day weekend. I must have close to half a bushel of seed to plant. Should be an event. Here is a couple photos from last year. Always enjoy seeing your creations.
Hi Brenda,
I can't wait to see your photos this year. The petals on that last zinnia have an unusually "spooned" form. And I can't put a name to the color. It's almost tan.
The primary goal of my indoor Winter zinnia growing project was to supply me some new seeds to plant outdoors this Spring. It succeeded. Attaching some pics of my Winter zinnias.
ZM
brendak- can't wait to see the results!
Zen_Man- I love your creations. Can't wait for the new crop.
Interesting - your winter zinnias. Unique to say the least. You will have new seeds to work with. Sounds like you are all set - ZM. I have a few rows of zinnia planted, and I am happy to say they are coming up, but my main garden for zinnia is in a low lying area that can easily flood, so I don't dare plant until I'm pretty sure the seasonal rains are basically over.. I took your suggestion ZM and I bought a few packets of the scabiosa type zinnia, which was easy to find at the local farm store.
I'll be excited over my oddities, so I'll be sure and post their pictures. When it was time to gather seed last fall, I gathered and gathered. They were ALL BEAUTIFUL. I let other people come and gather, as long as they didn't gather the ones I had marked for myself. Every year with the zinnia seems to get better. Anyone not hybridizing, should. Such fun and so rewarding!
Some people would think your orange one above was a marigold. The #2 photo resembles a clover blossom.
Hi Brenda,
I planted a bed of Stokes Whirligig zinnias today. Stokes Whirligigs come from a grower in Tanzania. I suspect labor costs are significantly lower in Tanzania, which allows them to do a better job of "roguing" (removing off-type zinnias from the seed field). That is the third bed of Stokes Whirligigs that I have planted this Spring. I am attaching a picture of my South Garden, which contains the three beds of Whirligigs.
I have added 8 beds to my North Garden, which is by far the larger of my two gardens. A picture of that project is in my second photo.
My Razzle Dazzle strain is under development. I plan to grow several beds of Razzle Dazzles to select the best ones for further development, by intercrossing the best specemens and out-crossing them to large flowered conventional zinnia specimens. One of my projects this year is to start the development of a large-flowered zinnia strain. I am hoping for 7-inch and larger zinnia blooms. I plan to intercross Burpeeana Giants, Benary's Giants, and California Giants (an heirloom zinnia strain). More later.
ZM
edited to delete a duplicate post
This message was edited May 15, 2015 11:05 PM
ZM,
You have wowed me with your above BEAUTIES. I thought the scabiosa was what I wanted to try this year, now I may (too) have to blend in some of Stokes Whirligig Zinnia. Those are beautiful. I, too like to opt for larger than large zinnia.
Now I am curious as to I see you have fencing - so, tell me what bothers your zinnia? We have herds of deer (I might be exagerating) and they track through my zinnia, but I have yet to have a problem with them eating on my zinnia??? Hope that's not next. I'll knock on wood - persay.
Some of my hillside garden zinnia have popped their little heads through the earth. YEAH! I noticed them this morn in the drizzling rain. Some of what I planted early are Mexican Zinnia and some are the old tall version of Thumbelina (about an inch in diameter). Of course saved seed on both.
Hi Brenda,
The fencing in that picture is fencing that encloses the "chicken run" at the south end of the henhouse. So, basically, the fencing keeps the chickens in, and has no specific purpose for my zinnias.
We also have "herds" of deer that frequently leave footprints in my garden. Apparently they don't eat any of my zinnias or anything, although they do occasionally accidentally break one of my row marking strings. We also have coyotes that occasionally visit the gardens. They also apparently don't do any damage. Dogs running through my garden have on occasion knocked over and even broken off a zinnia. That has motivated me to protect critical breeder zinnias with "zinnia cages", which are just re-purposed tomato cages.
Your pictures have inspired me to grow some California Giants this year, as part of my Big Zinnia project. I have one bed of California Giants planted (just a day ago) and I will plant a second bed of California Giants tomorrow. I understand that California Giants are an heirloom zinnia, and for that reason they may have seriously "run out" in the 80 or 90 years of field-grown propagation. But I am hoping I will find a few good California Giant specimens in my beds. Knock on wood. I like their "spoon like" petal structure that has appeared in some of your pictures. To me, those look more like Dahlias than the so-called Dahlia Flowered strains of zinnias. I am looking forward to planting another bunch of those California Giant zinnias in the morning. I think they could make some interesting crosses with some of my existing odd-ball zinnias.
ZM
WOW! Amazing beauties ZM and Brenda. ZM, in your previous set, the first three look like Alliums...so cool.
Gee ZM - our zinnia pictures should inspire lots of people to hybridize zinnias.. I'm excited to start the season and cannot wait for those first zinnia blooms. It's been November since I saw a zinnia bloom. Missing them!!! It was difficult for me to turn loose of some of my zinnia seed a couple weeks back too help out a neighbor to plant a row in her hilltop garden. I may have to invite myself to check out her zinnia once they get growing to see if she has any prize specimens. Maybe she will get hooked on ZINNIA, too.
ZM - Heaven forbid those chickens get in your zinnia. They can do a tremendous amount of damage in a short period of time. All that scratching. I can see them now!!! We just have ducks and guineas - they are more like yard ornaments - roam free except at night.
Thanks Mipii - LOVE my zinnia and SURE enjoy pictures ZM posts of his. How about you - ZINNIAS?
ZM - I gave in and did order a quarter pound of the Stokes whirligigs recently. You made them sound awesome (their color combinations). I couldn't resist. Have not received them yet, but any day. My one main garden where I planted the two 300' rows of zinnia last year, is still too wet to work. Glad I enjoy all flowers - it sure keeps me busy this time of year, while I'm waiting on the zinnia. I need to live where I can garden 12 months out of the year instead of just April - October (most of the time).
Just keep on gardening. Good for the soul!!!
Hi Brenda,
" I gave in and did order a quarter pound of the Stokes whirligigs recently. "
The Whirligigs typically have two or three colors on each petal, but some have other interesting traits other than bicolor or tricolor. Some have mottled or streaked colorations, while others can have "tie-die" color effects. Other Whirligigs have a "quilled" petal look. Whirligigs have many "looks" that don't show up in their advertising pictures.
ZM
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ZM,
Long time no talk. I'm beginning to get a few zinnia blooms to talk about and share, and thought you could appreciate. Seems like it has been forever since I had beautiful zinnias. Guess they kind of grow on a person. I did find seed, early in the year, for the scabiosa zinnia and even though I planted two or three very small packets that I found at a local farm store, I only have few of them that actually bloom the scabiosa. See below photo #1 and #2.
As I mentioned earlier, I ordered Whirligigs seed, but they are yet to bloom.
Pictures #3, #4, and #5 are from my 2014 hybridizing, thought you could enjoy. #3 is my favorite this season, #4 is so single petaled and #5 I like the color.
Hope you are enjoying the in ground growing season for your zinnias?
Hi Brenda,
I was happily surprised by your message. You have some nice looking zinnias, and it is normal for those scabiosa flowered zinnias to have only a small fraction "on-type". Nice looking scabis, and they provide you with some interesting hybridizing opportunities. The guard petals usually have receptive stigmas, which you can use even if the bloom does not present any obvious pollen florets. In case you want to get some pollen from them, the "new" colored central florets usually have an internal anther bundle that you can remove and use as a pollen source.
Your number 3 has an unusual striped color pattern. That may prove to be a dominant genetic trait. I am not a big fan of the striped effect, although I can remember many years ago seeing a zinnia bed at Oklahoma University that was striped in many colors, and I was thrilled by it because I had never seen such zinnias.
I used some striped zinnia pollen (Peppermint Improved) a few years ago, and then quit using it, but occasionally a striped specimen appears, like in my first picture. It combined striped and scabious genes. But, except for the marbled effects I see in some Whirligigs, I am not breeding for broken colors. However, I do not consider the two-color and three-color colorations of the Whirligigs to be "broken".
I am growing several beds of commercial strains, including Burpeeana Giants from Stokes (grown in Tanzania) and California Giants from Eden Seeds (pic #2). I was inspired to grow the California Giants by one of your pictures of a California Giant with up-curled petals. My number 3 picture is one of my California Giants that I will use as a breeder, although its petals are not as up-curled as some of yours. I did get an up-curled recombinant zinnia in my indoor zinnias (the no. 4). And I am still interested in improving my Razzle Dazzle strain (pic # 5 )
More later.
ZM
