I need help for our front hill

If I didn't know you all loved me, I'd never post this. We have long ignored our front hill because it is so daunting -- nothing seems to grow on it, except ditch lilies at the bottom. Even vinca doesn't spread -- but we don't water (usually), and it is very rocky and steep. We kept trying, limply, to get the vinca to spread, and bemoaned its failure. We figured that if vinca wouldn't spread, nothing would make it.

But our neighbor recently tackled similar conditions and to my shock was able to get a bunch of perennials and ornamental grasses to grow in similar awful conditions, and swears she didn't amend the soil. She has inspired us to try a new tack. My neighbor thinks the reason the vinca isn't spreading is the sun is too much for it (it is close to full sun), and that other plants would do well.

The hill is very very steep, so we are not interested in anything short-lived, or that can't compete with weeds, or that needs TLC. The soil is awful -- impenetrable -- it would be clay if it weren't so hard. It is not pleasant to stand or weed on that bank. We don't look at it much (the driveway is on the other side), and we never ever use the front door of the house. I have lots of other garden areas that I enjoy worrying over -- not this one.

Suggestions for long-lived plants that can survive here with very little care? Truly, my gardening energies go to the back side of the house.

What is growing well on my neighbor's front bank (planted just a few years ago) are:

A few huge ornamental grasses that might be Pampas grass -- it is throwing off lots of seedlings
Fountain grass (Pennisetum alopecuroides - don't know the variety), but looks very nice "running" down the hill
Liriope at the bottom of the hill next to the street
Salvia Royal Candles (doesn't make much of a statement)
Catmint (don't know the variety, but it looks great)
Spiderwort (don't know the variety -- this is on the shadier side of the hill)
Daisies of some sort (perennial)
Geranium Rozanne
Chrysanthemum Pacificum
Echinacea of some sort
Ajuga of some sort (a blackish one)
Siberian iris of some sort
Oenothera fruticosa
Echinacea of some sort
Flower Carpet roses

The overall effect in her yard is very pretty. She claims she never waters, though I've seen her water -- but maybe it was only when she first planted this stuff about two years ago.

I'd be happy to have some short shrubs. I do need plants that will hug the hill because of erosion (though the soil so awful we no longer get much erosion). I've thought about forsythia, knockout roses, st. john's wort.

Towards the top of the hill is a bit of shade.

Deer are definitely an issue. I haven't seen bunnies.

And we get lots of chemicals sprayed around when it snows.

Do you have any ideas?

You could most likely add butterfly weed to the list, it is not the most long lived plant although it self sows readily ,takes tremendous abuse,and in few years it be well established, The grasses are many,.where your at about every color and resistance quality is available,and besides most are pretty with a summer cooling effect(even if that is only to the mind)
Maximillion sunflower could be another to try, gets a little wild if a more formal look is what is wanted though.

The way your setting looks from the photo, appears ideal for some blue , red, and variegated foliage grasses, and as said, many of those are possible.

Thanks, juhur7. I should take a photo of my neighbor's approach. It is very verdant and belies the horrible conditions. I thought butterfly weed was long lived....

Did you just want to plant things into the way it looks now or actually landspcape the whole thing with rocks and some hardscape?

The former. I want to spend as little time on this awful hill as I can. It is basically nothing but rocks as it is and because it is so steep, it is really unpleasant to work on. I thought it was hopeless until my neighbor stuck some plants in her side of the hill and they thrived. I was shocked.

I think the approach I want to use (if possible) is that developed by Wolfgang Oehme (the "new American landscape") -- I've been researching it tonight -- fairly large masses of relatively few plants.

This message was edited May 28, 2012 12:19 AM

Happy,
I've been hoping you would start a thread like this as I must admit I've thought almost daily about your slope and what I would do if faced with same situation.


Just a question or two? Do you have more than one 'slope'? You posted a pic of front slope. Can you see this from the house. or is it mostly visible to neighbors and passersby? Do you want your slope to stand out or blend in? What is the large tree? How much run off (in a normal not droughty year) does this slope have to control? Does the neighbor who is growing a mix of plants on her slope have more or less run off or erosion? More or less sad soil? Do the pines stay? How far is it from top of slope to bottom or, like roofs, how steep is it? If I am standing in the street can I see your front door? Are the existing rocks stable? Size? How possible is it to water any planting until established?

Thanks, Maybe using your slope as an example I'll come up with an 'ah ha ' insight to my problem areas! Yep, that's plural areas lol

Coleup: Here are my answers to your questions (for which a million thanks!)

The answers to your questions below pertain to the front mess (I'm much farther along on the back).

Do you have more than one 'slope'? Answer: Yes, our whole lot is on a slope (total of 1/2 acre). The slope in the back is all I care about -- it is shaded, and I've been working on it for years. The front slope we never see and don't care about -- just fret that the neighbors must hate us for ignoring it.

You posted a pic of front slope. Can you see this from the house. or is it mostly visible to neighbors and passersby? Answer: The latter.

Do you want your slope to stand out or blend in? Answer: Don't really care -- just don't want to have to work on it much. I mean, in a perfect world I'd like it to be breathtaking, but there aren't enough hours in the year for me to work on it and still keep the back yard (which I do care about) presentable. I think ferns and grasses and some long-lived perennials could look nice.

What is the large tree? Answer: I think it's a white oak -- I need to check my notes or at least look up to the top of the tree to see.

How much run off (in a normal not droughty year) does this slope have to control? Answer: A lot, I suppose, but we've never worried about it. The last few years we've worried about runoff from the back hill into the neighbor's yard, because she complained -- but our fix only sends more water down our front yard.

Does the neighbor who is growing a mix of plants on her slope have more or less run off or erosion? Answer: Same, I'd guess. The slope is fairly stable -- no recent construction. But if I were to amend the soil, the lovely soft amended soil would float away. So I don't plan to do much to it.

More or less sad soil? Answer: Same, I'd guess.

Do the pines stay? Answer: Yes, they are my neighbor's. (They would not have been my choice.)

How far is it from top of slope to bottom or, like roofs, how steep is it? Answer: Very steep -- I don't know the pitch.
Are the existing rocks stable? Answer: Yes. There are more rocks than not, though many are not visible from the surface.

Size? The whole thing -- the area I want to plant -- is about 75' wide and 25' from the top of the ditch lilies (which is the bottom of the planting area) to the bottom of the grass (which is the top of the planting area), though it curves around.

The attached photo is of my neighbor's front yard -- the photo if of the part of her front yard that abuts our front yard (our yard is to the left of her yard) and has the same rotton soil and slope, but has more sun than we do. She told me she plans to plant more trees in her front yard, which will give me more shade -- I am going to see if she will change her mind because we have so little sun in our yard as it is.

I just can't figure out why even vinca won't grow! There used to be a lot of ivy and Virginia creeper -- we've pulled that out, which is why it looks so barren. And poison ivy is happy there ....

Happy, your neighbors hill looks great, I can see why it has inspired you to try something different on your hill again. That is quite some hill you have to work with. You can also put things that you think of climbers like Clematis on a hill and let it just spread out. How about some low growing junipers?

Holly, the hill is very steep, rocky and dry -- I don't think clematis would thrive -- plus it is too delicate -- the hill is big. I think I need to turn to big plants. And my problem with ground-cover junipers, at least in my experience, is they are a little finicky -- they die out in places and look bad. I don't know what causes the die-off. Drought?

My hill is so bad that water doesn't soak in - it just runs off. So what I am thinking of is tough plants like tall ferns, ornamental grasses, Sedum Autumn Joy, forsythia, Echinacea, Rudbeckia, Aruncus, Russian sage, Nepata, Hachenochloa, Inula racemosa 'Sonnenspeer', Yucca; maybe St. John's Wort and/or Vitex and/or butterfly bush (do they need moisture?); I want to choose plants that hopefully will never die, even if they look a bit coarse. Maybe Knockout roses? I'd put the taller plants at the back. I don't know how to organize them. I don't want to do it in rows -- maybe arbitrary large clusters? I want to weed out any plants that are not tough as nails.

My neighbor's hill gets better sun than ours does, and maybe the soil is better. Ours couldn't be worse. Really, it is just awful. Rain doesn't soak in -- it just runs off. (The plants will help that if I can get then established.)

Another problem -- one of the plants my neighbor put in is Miscanthus sinensis, which is reseeding on my side. It is great to see something growing in my awful dirt -- but worrisome too -- it is invasive and supposed to be hard to remove because it gets huge and the roots are stubborn.

And then I'm worried that if I buy all the plants, it'll cost a fortune and then they'll all die, so I may start small and see what happens.

Worry, worry, worry.

Glad you posted a pic so we can havr fun fun with this
Defense use some grasses. Where they rou sed our not, good question , you don't want typ get too messy with one grass that goes everywhere. I have black moudry, tough as heck but if be afraid it would reseed too much. But it makes a clump of arching grasso .blades that would shade the ground around and not allow much weed growth in its immediate area.
Then also think contrast. Need contrast to make it sharp. And some evergreens would do well to keep it all from becoming too bare over winter. I'm a little jealous because my while yard is flat, so I'm always running into short things behind tall things.

I'd love to do everygreens -- do you have any suggestions? I don't know any that are tough enough. My neighbor has stuck in 3 evergreen trees and they seem to be doing well, but I definitely don't want to add trees.

My neighbor has Pennisetum alopecuroides (fountain grass) and it really looks lovely because it flows down the hill. I gather Black Mouldry is a cultivar of that -- http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/51698/. I don't know what cultivar she has -- I saw the plant tag, but it didn't indicate a cultivar so maybe it is just the species.

I'll see if I can find some kind of Pennisetum alopecuroides that doesn't reseed, if there is such a thing.

Happy, the pictures really help trying to visualize your project. I agree with Sally, this is going to be fun! Your neighbor's hill looks great, and yours has so much potential. I don't have much experience with sun perennials, but I love this kind of design challenge.

I think the plant list you are thinking about is a good start. I would use the knock out roses as one of the back bone plants - from all that I've seen, these are tough and give spectacular performance all season long. Pick some kind of evergreen shrub and grass(es) as the other back bone plants. Group each in clumps of 3 and 5 at various spots on the hill. Then use all kinds of different plants as fillers - whatever everyone comes up with that meet the criteria.

I have a lot of rock on my property - I find them scattered everywhere on the surface and when I dig planting holes. I also have a lot of slope where I've been putting gardens, not as steep as that hill of yours though! I started just piling the rock to get it out of my way, but then I noticed that the randomly placed informal piles actually looked nice among the plants and also provided some diversion to the straight down the hill water run off. You could do the same with the rock on that hill - just toss the ones that are on the surface into a few random piles, and then toss any that come out of the planting holes into the closest pile. The piles I've made are different sizes and very randomly spaced. You'd be amazed at how nice it looks compared to single rocks strewn all over the place - visual continuity, solves the issue of getting them out of your way when putting in plants, and easy peasy to boot!



This message was edited May 30, 2012 7:47 AM

Happy, I have a simiilar slope by the new parking area outside the garage and it is looking terrible at the moment. I want to see if I can use plants to control erosion before paying $5-$6K for a retaining wall.

I have got some irises from Ruby and John that I will plant on the slope. The picture of your neighbor's garden gave me more plant ideas :-). Thank you very much for posting the pic.

What is the large tree in middle of your front slope? In the picture, I can't see the top of the tree to ID it. Is it a pine tree? Maybe that tree has spread its roots side ways and is sucking up all the nutrients on the rest of the hill. Have you considered calling in professional landscapers even if you have to pay for their consultations and get their recommendations? That looks like it is a very dangerous slope to have to work on, so I can understand why you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time on it. Have you considered different levels with stone, rock or brickwork supporting each level? Have you considered pacsyandra on the upper part of the hill and make several terrace levels near the bottom that you could manage yourself? This is a job for a professional in my opinion. Just tell them what you want and don't want..get at least 3 consultations, then you have a variety to chose from. If you buy your plants from their company, they will be guaranteed for a certain amount of time so they'd have to replace them if they didn't survive.

Does your neighbor have a professional landscaper install her landscaping? If so, maybe you could get a consultation from same person, so he/ she can make it blend in together yet be differerent because your choices of plants would be different than hers.
I invision terraces with daylilies and knock out roses but yet roses require work and how would you get to them to prune or maintain them? When you look at Aiken House and Gardens blogspot, Carolyn has terraced a part of her property with daylilies and each terrace level they look like they can walk on it. Take a look at her blogspot. She has many pictures of their property and she is a lovely person and very generous about giving out information on what plants has worked best for them. They do not have a gardener, she and her husband maintain all their property she has told me. I like the idea of different grasses too but a limited amount in specific locations. Where do you have to worry about deer? Does your driveway go up the side of your property to back yard? What type of driveway do you have..macadam or concrete driveway.

Good Luck!

Love aspenhills rocks concept too.

Yeah that Pennisetum you linked looks like mine, I would expect that [articular one to be horribly self seeding. There's some kind of native grass I have longed for--pink bloom, real airy...? darn.
I have anothe grass that 'seems' to be a Pennisteum but has never self seeded...it looks kind of like bunny tails, very soft, very thin blades.

I helped plant the middle school garden, and considered 'self cleaning'ness ( old leaves fall down get smushed and covered by new growth)/ easy to tidy up ness of plants. Autumn Joy and daylilies both seemed smart for self or easy cleaning of old stems, grasses too. And makes them kind of better than some shrubs, in that the perennials will get to a certain size and stop, not get way overgrown eventually.

Greenthumb and ecnalg have a lot of rocks too. They have used them to outline various planting areas all though their woodland garden. It solves their problem with all the rocks in the way and looks great in that natural environment. Not sure that it could work on that steep of a hillside though - the pile concept would probably be easier, it was just another option to throw out there.

I have twice drafted a long response only to have it eaten by Internet Explorer (I know, Foxfire and Chrome work better but they don't play nice with my office software). I have to get back to work, so I'll respond later! Short answer: Thanks for all the input.

Happy, I was just up at the Aspen Hill shopping center and coming out of the shopping center exit, I noticed they have some yellow fern leaf yarrows in there. I know that variety of yarrow comes in so many colors and spreads. Would that help any? They are perennials too and easy to find locally. Freda Cameron's blog has a list of Deer Resistant plants that she uses down in Raleigh, NC area that works for her. Maybe the Md. deer like stuff NC deer don't like. LOL!

The new Paprika and Red Velvet Achillia are doing a great job in front of the wild area of the property. I think that Pippi hit the nail on the head!!

Lona Dawn who has a blog called " A Hocking Hill's garden" or something similar to that name has a pretty one that has caught my eye. It is in the rose tones..a variety that has the name Ortel rose in it. Last Spring she did a collage of pink flowers she owns as her header..was so pretty. She has all kinds of yellows perennials/annuals now, plus birds and butterflies in those colors in her collage header.

Ajuga is a care free plant which multiplies but can get crown rot in about 5 yrs. you just replace it. So many more varieties of this perennial offered now. It has a pretty purple spike flower and is a ground cover. It is usually one of the first to bloom in late winter and early spring. Perennial periwinkles is another ground cover, as is creeping yellow sedum. Now I had the variety that its foliage looks more like a succulent. OrchidFancy in College Park has a different type of yellow sedum. It is more delicate and lacy looking. Sundrops is a reliable perennial which multiplies, Lithodora "Grace Ward" is a ground cover like creeping phlox and is a deep blue color..Kiosk0025(username)grows this plant and really likes it. I'd like to look for some locally. She grows Nepeta "Walker's low on her slope. Kiosk0025 lives in Oregon where they probably have a lot of rainfall. I saw it in Bluestone perennials catalog too.

Stella D'ora will give you lots of color and is supposed to be a rebloomer.

A couple of years ago, when I'd just moved into my vintage cinderblock cottage without ANY landscaping whatsoever except badly neglected Lilacs on one side, pest shrubs growing under the foundation. etc. etc., I called a local landscaping company to come out and start some beds for me.
Working full time and then battling with the gross stuff in the yard just wore me out. No time for more, but stuff had to go into the ground to get started. I mean, there was NO foundation planting. Unreal.
They came out, took some grass machine and ripped out the weeds/grass in the beds. Then they threw about an inch of GOOD (half humus/compost, half top soil) dirt on top, then threw a deep layer of mulch on top of it all. Done!
All I had to do was plant pretty things.
I SERIOUSLY RECOMMEND that you do the same. Let someone else have at that hill! You pay 'em whatever they want - it's the right price if you like the result. Before the mulch, you should have them put some kind of plastic grid to hold stuff into the dirt. Then cover it up.
I have some Blue Rug Junipers and, after watching them "grow" for a couple of years (First year they sleep, second year they creep, third year they leap), am seeing some growth, so get the biggest ones you can if these are your choice. My landscaper hates Junipers, but they are the exception. I can see why - I'd get them again.
I'd steer away from the carefree roses (kinda deer magnets), the daylilys (real deer magnets), and tulips. Get some BIG rocks/boulders, throw them about, and plant different things around. When something dies, not everything will. Could have some reblooming iris peeking from around the boulders, and old-fashioned phlox in big patches...lovely! You could have some real fun with low-growing, oriental pines - don't forget that it could be a great Christmas light display!
Best of luck, and I hope that I helped in some way!

Oh Gracye, I wish I'd been given that advice last year. I think it would have been cheaper in the long run to get someone out here to dig up the weeds, put down compost, and mulch the whole area for me before I put any plants down in the ground. What I learned the hard (and expensive) way was that the soil is the most important part of the equation.

HM, that's quite a slope! It sounds like only somewhat invasive plants would survive there. I know this would be a controversial choice, but have you considered sweet autumn clematis?

There are a few episodes on Curb Appeal on HGTV that deal with slopes, I like the idea of creating a pocket planting area every so often with rocks and then you plant behind the rock, let me see if I can find that episode where they did that.... It's called "The House on the Hill" episode if this link doesn't go right to

http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv42/videos/index.html

Tell you what. Get onto some sale, like I did, and you'd be shocked at how inexpensive and painless paying some company to do "prep bed work." I was so surprised that I could not believe how few people go for this. A whole lot of work was lifted from my shoulders! I'd do it again if I needed that work done, honestly I would.
The main thing was, those guys came out last year and about two hours later, I was planting away! And it looked GOOD. This year, I have to put more mulch down, and I can't dig very far down without hitting that Virginia red clay, but with all the emphasis on planting in native soil these days, well...I'm not too concerned. I can always dig my own deep hole, but in the meantime, things look good.
So, factoring this pleasure in, just how $ was my professional landscape "bed prep?" Not very.

Throwing my 2 cents into the great mix of ideas, approaches and practics above.

My first focus will be slope stabilization. To me the single most important thing you have going for your slope is the large tree at the top. From your pics< if you lost that tree your entire front yard would become like the slope below it. Trees with their deep roots anchor slopes to the bedrock below. The erosion and lack of plant cover may already be compromising that tree along with the excess drainage now occurring from the back of the property slope . If you choose not to get "landscape" estimates please, please get one or two of the best arborists around to assess the current health of that tree and make any recommendations to keep that tree healthy for the long term. Said arborist should also be able to recommend type of trees and their placement on the rest of the slope.

Even though you are wanting more sun, shade is what was sheltering your slope pre development and the naturally existing plant community will have greatest chance for long term success of any selected plantings reintroduced to your slope.

Secondly. you have a drainage/runoff situation which is somewhat exacerbated by the current fix for backyard runoff/drainage solution. ( Even though water runs down hill via the path of least resistance we individual home owners are 'responsible' for our water not bothering what ever our neighbors choose to do),

You may find that creating a rain garden/ bog area at the top of front slope to the right to help with what happens when it rains. On the slope itself, to lessen erosion from upper elevation runoff, I often visualize a dry stream bed meandering across your slope and to the right. I'm convinced that addressing the run off problem prior to the slope itself will make it much more likely that anchoring the soil and plants on the slope for control of erosion from rainfall will be successful. Hope I'm making sense here. I just keep wondering how a hard or heavy rain on that slope would leave any plant or soil/ mulch cover standing!

If your property was here in the Bay Critical Areas you would have been compelled to have at minimum a silt fence at top and one of a variety of erosion control fabrics/straw etc anchored all over that bare slope and have been given a list of acceptable plants (mostly hardy tough perennial grasses for slope restoration, or not have received a building permit to begin with! lol

Not saying "bad" or anything else other than that this is a big complex gardening/yardening/ situation facing many of us and kudos to all here for taking it seriously.

Like kids on a long car ride, "Are we there yet?" underscores how much we gardeners want to get to the Planting Party sense of accomplishment phase. Maybe Happy you will hold a BYOP slope planting party next Spring shall we say?

Oops, forgot to include this drawing with my post.

I'm not ignoring all your comments -- I just need time to read and respond and I don't have it right now. I have to focus on my day job for the moment. Thanks in advance! I really appreciate all suggestions!!!

One more thing. I think I am going to veer slightly towards the Wolfgang Oehme approach -- see attached. http://allthingsplants.com/ideas/view/LarryR/221/Wolfgang-Oehme-launches-a-gardening-revolution/. He had the same goal of toughness that I am looking for.

Oh so THAT"S where we got all this Autumn Joy... lol


Panicum virgatum is the grass I was trying to name; never grown it but looks cool.

I agree with somebody that you should get a heavy layer of mulch down. Then plants can spread into the mulch without too much random weediness in the interim. Now, keeping mulch in place on a hill--?

I think that mulch would wash right down the hill! The hill is very steep.

I spent an hour this evening wandering through the gardens at the International Center in NW DC, adjacent to the Intesat Campus (bordered by Connecticut, Tilden, 34th St. and Van Ness). And I got a bunch of books. A full report will be forthcoming, but maybe not until the weekend!

I was out taking pictures this morning. This is a picture of one of the random rock piles - it has a different look than what yours would have because of the shade vs sun and white rock vs brown/grey rock, but the concept would be the same.

This message was edited Jun 1, 2012 5:15 PM

What a beautiful setting, Terri. One of our daughters has a woodland setting for property and I am so much more enchanted by it than ours. We started out with farmland property and the ONLY trees and bushes are the ones we put in. We could never make it look like that.

aspenhill- your rock piles look very natural, the stuff filtering into the gaps make them look like they are just cracked in place rock. And your setting lends itself to rocks being surfaced in spots.

Our yard had 20 yr old trees and thats one of the reasons I liked it. Thats about all it had going for it. And the only thing I haven't really changed. Sometimes I need a little more sun though.

Vinca- When I was little, my dad got some guys to carve away a small terraced part of our backyard. That left a pure clay hill which he tried to cover with vinca. It was a battle for years. It just didn't seem to take well to bare ground slope.

Someone mentioned using mulch mats around tree bases. Maybe there's a mat for areas, that you can fit around whatever you'll plant. Steep front yard slopes are really a challenge!

There are mats used for grass where you seed the lawn and lay the mat over it the grass grows up thru and then it deteriorates over time. I bet you could use them and plant tru them.

Holly and Sally, I've been very interested in coir for erosion control and slopes,,, it comes in matss, blankets, grids, and logs and you can even order it pre planted as per your design.

Just found this discussion and I too think this is a very fun project. Happy, many of the plants you are considering using, we can fix you right up with. We have many of them coming out of our ears, or could have them ready for you at a future swap if you would let us know that you wanted them.

I too was quite impressed with what your neighbor has been able to do with her steep slope. Looking good for sure.

Anyway lady, when you need some of these plants, let us know, we would love to help you get started.

Aspenhill, I love your piled rocks idea. They do look very natural and are eye pleasing too. I am amazed with the design talents in this group of gardeners. I will look forward to seeing how this issue will be addressed.

Ruby