Spray for succulants

Does anyone have a recomendation for an insecticide that is relatively safe for succulants? It has been a horrific year for any and all types of insects here and I am worried I will bring them in with the plants. Also, how about adeniums? I have tried one or two insecticides on them and always see leaf damage. I am especially worried about spider mites.
Cheryl

Insecticidal soap is safe and effective. Just be sure to keep plants out of direct sunlight until it drys. Someone on this forum uses Windex, it works but needs several applications. You can make your own insecticidal soap, there are lots of recipes online. I use Dr. Bronners soap for that. A lot of leaf damage is the result of sunlight hitting the chemicals, no matter how "safe".

I have used different kinds of IS in the past and it had less than great bug killing abilities. I might have to spray them twice and then bring them inside for the winter.
C

The thing about insecticidal soap is that it only kills what it hits-- so if there is a bug you miss-- it carries on--likewise-- any creepy crawling by after the spray dries has free access. So multiple applications and consistant monitoring are necessary. I have (hesitantly) been treating a lot of my things with a systemic, concentrating on those that seem to me the "tastiest" to mealies and scale and spraying the rest.

I remember a thread on here that recommended bayer systemic at half strength for cacti, what do you use? Honestly I have never had so many insect problems as this year and I would be willing to try something a little more intense if it works.
C

I use Bayer Advanced Tree & Shrub (BATS) at 1 teaspoon per gallon as a systemic for all of my C&S, and it works very well. BATS is great because it's a 12-month systemic so I only have to apply it once a year.

I use various kinds of insecticides (depends on what's cheapest/on sale) for contact kills and have had no problems at all with any of them damaging my plants.

I have followed faeden's advice. My plants too have more than the usual number of bugs this year, lots of mealies and for the first time I am seeing lots of scale. I am using Fertilome Tree & Shrub Systemic Insect Drench. Same ingredients as the Bayer-- smaller package, half the price. The nursery where I bought it didn't carry the BATS--and it has been hard to find elsewhere this time of year-- but this seems to be working. I drenched my Amaryllis papillio-- it had scale with ants farming it-- the ants are gone and the scale is flaking off.

What does "drench" mean? Is it like other systemics that you apply to the soil or something else?
C

Yep-- you drench the soil. I water thorougly with the systemic and let them soak it in for about 10 minutes or so.

Seeing some scale here too on a Euphorbia. Have not before. :-( Bah, humbug. I use I S quite often and have had no damage but do try to keep the things I've sprayed out of the sun or shade them if they are in the ground. I use other things too including faeden's suggested BATS now. :-)

Gran hit it right on the head about the problem with insecticidal soap. I still use soap always as a first-line attack. BATS seems to be more effective for prevention than cure. It's also better against mealy bugs than scale in my experience. Be aware that systemics also kill "beneficial" insects. Soap does not.

But scale can be vanquished with a toothbrush if the plant is not too spiny. I bring a jar of soapy water out there. Dip the brush in it periodically to rinse off the bugs, and any bugs that remain on a scrubbed plant have been so traumatized that they won't reattach. If you're thorough, you'll earn yourself enough time to improve the cultural conditions of the plant so it doesn't get sick again.

As long as you monitor your plants carefully, you can completely stop a mealy bug infestation with 3 serial applications of soap water, usually less. Some plants have nooks and crevices that can't be monitored or sprayed clean, of course. And some serious flowers also cause problems.

The ones that can't be cured with soap I usually throw out because (a) they're probably sick in general or will soon be sick because of the bugs; and (b) they're a bug repository in the garden.

I just bring out the big guns. I have too many plants and the mealies end up driving me crazy. I like the idea of the Bayer. I have that and think I may put that in now. Good idea.

I usually toss all plants that are repeatidly attacked too but this year I have plants under attack that I have had for years without any bugs present. Still I think I may have to throw away all the spineless prickly pears, they all look sick this summer. I will try the systemic and see how it works.
C

Some plants are just magnets for certain pests. I read an article a while back on "indicator plants", the author grows certain plants as an indicator of the presence of pests-- for example hoyas for mealies since they like them best. She knew if she had mealies on the hoyas that an invasion was imminent, the same with spider mites, but forget what she used for that. I wish I had bookmarked it. I will try to find it again.

I used the BATS on the in ground plants that I had to dig up and bring inside for the winter. I didn't want any critters getting in the house.
Wasn't there a mention of using Windex in an earlier thread. I think I used it a couple times with no damage to the plant. I now use the insecticidal soap.
Gary

Mealies are like aphids in my garden. They never really go away. They just pop up where they want, when they want, until I stamp them out or toss the plant. So I don't think there's any point in ever declaring victory. But I do believe that good hygiene reduces the odds of things going wrong.

Windex is quite toxic to bugs in general and quite nontoxic to plants (and their roots) in general, if they're rinsed carefully after exposure. I've never tried or needed anything else for bare-root cleanup.

I don't have the intense sun here that some of you do so I have had no problem with the insecticidal soaps. I've not tried the Windex but looks like maybe I should.

Baja is right about the hygiene. If you look at pots belonging to plants with a healthy mealy population you often find mealy egg cases--a lot of times under the rim where they are visible from above. One really needs to pick the pot up if possible and look at it from all angles. No point in spraying and leaving the new recruits behind. I have no idea how long those cases are viable, but try to wash all my used pots and rinse in bleach water before re-use.

If you are using the Bayer products that only contain immidacloprid, which is an excellent insecticidal, remember that spider mites are NOT insects, and it will have no effect upon them.

Thanks, PB.

Hi guys, I just stumbled onto this thread and have a few comments. First to Baja Costero, if you have a recuring and persistent aphid problem, you really have an ant problem. Get rid of your ants and then when you knock off the aphids they will stay gone. Ants farm aphids like we raise cattle, aphids cannot move around much on their own.

Anything you use to treat for mealy bugs except a systemic or a drench will not effect the root mealies. To me a drench is a bucket or big tub of liquid insecticide in which you place the entire plant, pot and all and leave it there until everything is throughly soaked.

I have used Bayer Rose Systemic on a number of my plants and it seems to be doing a good preventive job and no bad side effects noted so far. I expect the BATS mentioned above would be fine, but I cannot comment because I have not used it.

I do keep several spray bottles of windex situated strategically around my various cactus/succulent locations. At first sight of scale, mealies, spider mites or anything that just looks suspicious, I soak the plant completely. I have never noticed any damage to a plant from this treatment and I have been told that the runoff windex breaksdown into useable plant food. I often repeat the windex treatment for several days if I don't get complete satisfaction with the first treatment. And like the guy who told me about the windex likes to say "and that works for me". Bet a lot of you will know who it was just from those five words. Don

Just an added note to what Don said, ants also farm mealies and scale as well as aphids. Windex doesn't seem to kill ants however, neither does homemade insecticidal soap. I have had better luck with commercial insectical soap products, but like everything else, it only kills the ones it hits.

There's no getting rid of the ants, Don. They're everywhere and they move in very fast.

This message was edited Oct 24, 2010 7:52 PM

Are those the tiny Argentine ants? They are a problem and I've used a commercial bait product for them.

BajaCostero, Track them back to their ant hole(s) and use a good ant bait. Andro comes to mind but there are others that work just fine. Killing individual ants is a waste of time. You need to get the queen and only a bait that the workers will take down into the colony and feed to her will work. Ants live only a matter of days and once the queen stops laying eggs the colony will die off soon enough. Tracking ants requires waiting until the temperature is right for them to be very active and then just spending a little time being observant. If you have fears about other animals getting into the ant bait, there is one on the market that works, I believe, by sterilizing the queen. In any event it is safe around all other critters. Don

There are many anthills all around, too much activity to even think about controlling. I have to be realistic here.

We discussed the Bayer Rose Systemic someplace else and there was caution about the fertilizer part of it, but I keep that on hand and use that for my roses so I am happy to hear it will work just fine on the succulents too. As well as the BATS??

I've never had a problem with spraying any kind of insecticidal soap either. And nice to hear that the Windex may break down and provide plant food. Are we talking about only Windex brand here?

I use 1-2 tablespoons of Palmolive liquid dish soap per gallon of water and submerge my infected plants. Wait for all the bubbles to stop and then leave in in the bath for several minutes, say about 5 minutes max. Lift it out, let it drain and give it a rinse. I have cleared up some suborn chronic infestations (mealies on a curly leaved hoya) using this method.
I use a tall bucket and of course one of the problems with this method is getting some bigger plants fully submerged. I have done the process with two steps for tall plants by first submerging the lower part of the plant including the pot its in and then holding the top of the plant in the water. I find it a very effective way to get rid of mealies.
Helen

Palmolive works well for a lot of things. Glad to hear about this one.

Original windex with ammonia is what I use. I like it because it is easy and convenient to use. I am sure you could mix up a batch of soap and ammonia that would be as effective or maybe more so. And probably less expensive. I just like the ease and convenience of placing bottles of windex around in various locations where they are right at hand when I spot a problem.

I am going to go right out to my potting shed where I store things and double check, but I thought the rose systemic I have used was without a fertilizer. I did see one on the store shelf called complete rose care with a fertilizer.

Baja Costero, controlling your ants is worth a little extra effort. When we first bought this place I went on ant and gopher patrol every morning for months on end. I thought I might never get those pests under control. Now, ten years later,
I only have to do it once in awhile.

If you have the fire ants, I understand they are different in that they are not loyal to just one queen like all other ants. They will readily move from colony to colony and be accepted wherever they go. This makes control more difficult but it is basically the same. Shake some bait pellets out of the container around the ant hills. If you are persistent you will win the fight and it is worth winning. Keep thinking......no more aphids. Don

Yes, I believe there may be a Bayer Systemic Rose Care without the fertilizer component. On the other thread we were discussing one with fertilizer. Is that what you are talking about?

On second thought I think they both have the fertilizer component, one has only the insect control and fertilizer and the other has insect control, fertilizer, and fungicide.

If anyone's really interested, here's the Bayer site which shows all of the different products they have. You can easily look at the specific ingredients listed on each container.

http://www.bayeradvanced.com/insects-pests/products

Thanks. I think we're all probably really interested but I, for one, am on dial-up and it sometimes takes forever to see those sites. It's always helpful if we know the exact name of our product though because there are almost always several different kinds. It's definitely easier to discuss it that way. ;-)

That's why you should try to load that page. It's not that huge and it's more informative than any of us. Thanks for the link, faeden.

You're very welcome. When in doubt, go to the source! LOL

Or I can just read what it says on my bottle of Bayer Rose Systemic. Just so we're all on the same page when discussing. Much easier than a download like that when you're on dial up. But it's great for those who can and wonderful resource. ;-) Kinda like killing ants in some respects. LOL.

This message was edited Oct 25, 2010 5:28 PM

For mites, I go right for the big guns. I used to use Ortho Isotox to control mites; it was replaced by Ortho Systemic Insect Control which has also been removed from the market. I liked these because they were both contact killer and systemic absorbed through the leaves. Now I use Malathion but have read where it is also being taken off the market, so I contacted Ortho to see what they recommended for controlling mites. They suggested EcoSense Outdoor Insect Control
which is a new "natural" insecticide.

48, I have been using their EcoSense Outdoor Insect Control and it works well. Killed the Japanese Bettles this year and a lot of other things ... although that has nothing to do with c & s. It just illustrates the point. JBs aren't always the easiest to kill and we had hundreds of them this year. I have sprayed the EcoSense on the soil around c & s and directly on some c & s. It is pyrethrin-based (sp) and a direct spray product (although they may have another that is systemic??). I don't know about that. At least that's what my current bottle says. I believe it works well and I am going to use it on my c & s that are inside also but I have not yet tried it on any of those.

Geoff's (Palm Bob's) comment is most appropriate, others have mentioned BATS, whose active ingredient is imidacloprid. It is also the active ingredient in the flea treatment that I use on our dogs. Edited to include Geoff's ID

I asked a friend, PHD biochemist about the safeness of Imidicloprid in his greenhouses. At the time my wife was in the conversation and was drinking a high caffeine drink. He looked at her smiled..then said
"Imidicloprid is safer than caffeine." What a relief. We treated all our gardens, fruit trees, and greenhouses with it from our fertilizer spray tanks the last two years.

It will control argentine ants on succulents. Any sucking insect is effectively erased from existence when it touches Imidicloprid. Argentine Ants will not hang around any plant that has been treated with it. So it renders them ineffective as a farmer of destructive insects..They disappear from the plants. We douse the roots by flooding the pots with the imidacloprid at the recommended dosages on the instructions. It also rids roots of sucking in and chewing insects.

It has no discernible effect on Aloe mite...other than it may, by effectively controlling ants, remove one of the vectors of the Aloe Mite. Aloe mite has not spread from plant to plant as much since we started the Imidicloprid regimen. The wind will still move Aloe mite. from plant to plant.. But within the Greenhouse away from fans..the Aloe mite doesn't seem to migrate...We have had less than 5 infections in the thousands of aloes in our greenhouses.

There is a spider mite control..sold on eBay and I have been told that it is effective against Aloe mite..It is a new experimental Bayer product..I am unable to find any details on it..but friends who apparently employ it say it is effective. I won't use it till I get information on the potential hazards it might induce. The product name is 'Forbid'.

Because we use so much of it we get a much more concentrated Imidacloprid-only formula from an online wholesale pest control supplier. Edited the concentration statement

We have seen Argentine ants in large patio pots ..I suspect they are after the water because we don't see them on the leaves or roots. I still use Sevin granules for such situations..I don't like any ants around the place. We had major problems and spent ten hours a week killing ant nests with borax based bait till we started using imidacloprid.

Some are concerned about the effect of Imidacloprid on bees and birds. I have observed bee activities carefully. The will not come around flowers on plants with active imidacloprid in our gardens or greenhouses. Amazingly, whenever we start seeing aphids as the effectivity of the Imidacloprid wears off bees will start visiting the flowers again.

Any Bayer product...including termite treatment..that lists Imidacloprid as its active ingredient used in the recommended dosage has been effective and has done no discernible harm to anything. Humming birds working the flowers have returned day after day during the flowering seasons...and seem to be happy and healthy...If we find a mite treatment, it should help them..I hope...that is one reason I am reluctant to try any miticide till I know the birds are okay with it.

Cheers! Please note...the key is that Ants won't bother your plants if the plant is treated with Imidacloprid...It doesn't kill the ants..it just renders them harmless as long as the chemical remains active.

Cheers
Bob Weeks


This message was edited Nov 1, 2010 7:49 AM