has anybody tried Pyrethrin spray to controll stinkbugs.

I am having a hard time getting rid of all the nasty stink bugs and also cucumber bettles in my garden, I have tried burning them with a lighter and also just grabing them and killiing them as well but it is getting a little out of controll so I am going to have to eliminate them some other way. I have read in organic gardening that there is a spray or powder that contains Pyrethrin and that this should eliminate them, have any of you tried this method and does it work? Or can you suggest any other method?

Thanks

I have. It didn't work for stink bugs. All that happened was that they fell off the plants. Then they climbed right back up. I had even used the partially synthetic version of the pyrethrins--can't remember if it is pyrethroids or what. Never again. That piece of land was just infested with those sons-o'-biscuits. I had to quit using that plot altogether.

I haven't had such a problem with cuke beetles, but one thing I noticed was that what problems I have had were on weak plants. They would chomp away at a weak squash plant and then robust plants right next to them, they would leave alone.

Maybe one of those bug vacs?

Thanks paracelsus, my DH got me some dust that has pyrethrins, silicon dioxide and piperonyl butoxide, it is called results, I am not sure if it will work but I might as well give it a try and see. I might look into one of those bug vacs if they really work good.

carminator1 - Did the results work?

Susan no they actually did not, I ended up having to buy a nonorganic spray called Bayer advance, I sprayed it only once and it did work. I have not sprayed it again since I had to get the tomato vines out since they were done producing and I have a second batch of tomatoes that need to come out in about a week or so. Lets hope the fall tomatoes don't get as damage.

Okay will look at that.

I'm having problems with the cucumber beetles also. The recommendation in the Radale organic gardening book is is kaolin clay esp to the undersides of the leaves; hand pick or vacuumn; apply parasitic nematodes to the soil weekly; and as a last resort spray with pyrethrin.

Have not used the above method but was hoping someone has. Also am headed to look for a Jerry Baker book at the local library in hopes he has something.

Which Bayer advance did you use?

Please ignore Jerry Baker's advice. He might be popular, but he is an idiot, advising things like spray with wormwood, which retards plant growth.

I would say if you have a lot of bug pressure, something is wrong on a scale that bug sprays will not sufficiently address, esp. the stronger ones, which will kill all your predator bugs as well as the bad bugs. My experience has been that when I have had many problems with bugs, it's because a) the plants are too stressed, usually from nutrient deficient soil, b) the plot has been used too hard for too long and has gotten a bug buildup, c) too much nitrogen fertilizer, which is like a blue light special to bad bugs, d) too many weeds in the garden itself, e) too many weeds and long grass around the garden. I would look to those issues first, because once you start using chemicals, you will find it more and more difficult to go back to using organics.

Interesting comment on Jerry. Never heard of him until a couple of weeks ago when I was at a garden tour. The owner of the garden is a biochemist and long time organic gardener. He used both Jerry and some old Rodale books. I wasn;t sure about spraying some of the stuff he was talking about but he was very sold on what he was using out of the books.

The beds are all new in the last two years. They are raised beds in lawn area but the grass is kept mowed. The soil for the beds were trucked in so we don't know the history of what it was used for. No weeds. We are in suburbia so even though we don't use pesticides the neighbors do. We're using a combination of veggies, herbs, and flowers in the beds to ensure we get whatever benificials we can. In addition I have large amounts of flower beds around in the yard. I put composte on some of the beds last fall. If we use a granular fertilizer then it's one that is specific for veggies.

We do have summer squash and peppers in large containers but supposedly the types we picked can be grown in containers without a problem.

In addion to having the unknown soil there has been a lot more rain the last two years. Enough to delay the harvest by three weeks or more. Both years we have had the cucumber beetles and flea beetles. Prior to that no problem.

Sounds like I need to look at doing a soil analysis and adding some compost to the top of the bed but am not sure that will take care of the issue for this year. I eas thinking this morning maybe I can take the shop vac out, shake the plants, and vac up the cucmber beetles that fly out. Any other suggestions?

Susan I also have raise beds for all my veggies, I started some beds with some free horse manure and some others with some purchased top soil amended with cow manure, I also compost and do vermicomost as well, so as soon as the compost is done I also add it to the raise beds, I am also adding lots of flowers and usually feed my plants with organic compost tea about 3 or so weeks. Also before starting some of my summer veggies I also had 2 of my raise beds with green manure which supposedly benefits the soil. At this point I am not sure if it is lack of nutrients or if we are just having a horrible year with bugs, just like me though there has been tons of people that have been gardening for years the organic way complaining about the horrible bug infestation this year. I do agree paracelsus a little bit about if the soil is healthy your plants are healthy but I also think some years are harder than others when it comes to bug infestation. I only used the non organic spray once as a last resort because the stink bugs were getting out of controll but hopefuly I will never have to use it again and I can just resort to organic methods. Whether you want to use a non organic spray is up to you, if you do try to spray when the beneficial bugs are not as present like late in the afternoon.

Thanks for the info on the late afternoon. Hadn't thought about that.

Old Rodale books can be great--I have one I really like about intensive gardening--but sometimes the remedies are problematic. I remember using one back in the eighties that was made out of dish soap (yes) and cigarette butts soaked in water. This was for spraying houseplants that had spider mites (talk about overkill--just dunk the plant in water three days in a row). This Jerry-Baker-style home remedy is no longer recommended because it is EXTREMELY poisonous. Etc.

One thing I did not mention is that I have had some success keeping bugs off with liquid kelp (the taste seems to discourage woodchucks as well), but a couple times when my plants got stressed (one plot in particular had just been used too many times, not by me, but by the previous resident), nothing helped and I just trashed the plants and planted elsewhere the following year. That was the worst year I ever had in 25 years of gardening. Stinkbugs were all over the tomato plants. Nothing worked. The following year I planted near that plot and had no stinkbugs. I did not use that plot again.

I wonder if it's the soil you got. Maybe it was not sufficiently composted and has a big bug load. It seems odd. I do know that predacious bugs are attracted to lush vegetative growth. I've had that experience when I got too heavy-handed with foliar ferts. Maybe there is too much nitrogen in the soil?

I too have noticed that there are different bugs around, and I think it has to do with the changing weather. Last year we had a very cool summer, and I had jillions of garden spiders all over in my garden. This year it's been warmer and very dry. I have few spiders but almost no bugs of any kind except a few wasps and bees and a scattering of Japanese beetles. I've got cukes coming up right now, so I will find out how bad it will be. But I don't expect it to be too bad. Those spiders cleaned things right up.

You are welcome Susan, hopefully it will work for you.

paracelsus, you might be right, I did test my soil in the begining of the season and nitrogen level was fine and also the PH.

One thing I have to coment is the weather here is so hot and humid during the summer months that we have lots and lots of bugs everywhere, you live in a colder climate and therefore might not have as many bugs as we do here down south. I was telling the other day about my problem with stinkbugs to my mother in law who also gardens and has a nice veggie patch in Michigan and she had no idea what stinkbugs looked like, I guess she does not have the same problems there as we do here in the deep south or as many bugs for that matter.

I did learn a little bit this time around and since I am a new gardener I think I made many mistakes this season, one was to plant veggies too close together to the point that the tomatoes looked more like a jungle so it was a little more difficult for me to pick bugs by hand, second I did not plant too many beneficial flowers, I only had marigolds and also basil on my tomato beds. I did have tons of ladybugs in the begining of the season on my raise beds but when the stinkbugs started the ladybugs dissapeared. This time I started more beneficial flowers that hopefully will get more beneficial insects to move into the raise beds and I will try not to pack so many things on one raise bed.

Well, you do the best you can. And if something somehow gets so out of balance that you have an infestation, you might have to do something you'd rather not. I kind of beat myself up about spraying the rotenone/pyrethrin (and who knows what else is in that stuff) for the Japanese beetles, but I really wasn't left with any other choice. Organic gardening is about being responsible and respectful of the environment, but it isn't about letting a pestilence destroy everything you've worked so hard for. The stuff I sprayed was lethal. They're gone and I might not have to use it again. And all I can do is cross my fingers and hope that the bulk of the beneficials didn't get caught in the crossfire. I still see plenty of assassin bugs and spiders and bees and wasps, so I think it will all work out.

If I have to do that sort of thing once or twice in an extended period of time, I'm still doing much better than those who are dumping chemicals on their gardens repeatedly season after season for years and years.

You did the best you could, Carmen, and zapped them back to a level that your beneficials have a better chance of controlling. Probably not much else you could've done, aside from moving out to the garden and dedicating all your waking hours to annihilating these things. Nobody has that kind of time.

dividedsky I feel the same way, I use all the organic methods that were available and known to me to be able to kill this pesky bugs but to no avail, that is why I had to resort to a more drastic spray but so far I have only used it once when things got out of controll and they did die. I have not used this spray for weeks and I do see them in my garden still but not in the huge numbers as before so unless things get out of controll again I'll try to contain them this time, maybe picking them or using other methods.

I will be starting my fall tomatoes, probably will be planting them out this weekend so hopefully I will have better luck with my fall harvest, hopefully the not so hot and humid weather will have its benefits.

Fall tomatoes! We only get one chance here. :o) I don't think I could take that kind of heat down there though.

I've been picking and drowning hornworms - there haven't been too many of them - and missed a couple. The two I found today were so big that the poop I found, I thought it was some kind of rodent poop. And the dang thing took some big bites out of one of my biggest, prettiest Opalkas. Grrr, critters!

Dividensky I had the same problem with my maters, and just like you I thought those were rodent poop and not the worms, they do get big and fast.

My maters were doing wonderful, then we had to leave for a week to go to a funeral, my neighbors had to take care of my plants and chickens and by the time I got back the worms had taken over and eaten half of the pretty tomatoes I was growing, BT did the trick for me, so if they get out of controll try BT it is completely organic and they were dead in no time.

Actually last year it was november here and we were still wearing shorts, it was very weird weather since the cold came late, but yes we can have 2 seasons of tomatoes, hopefully this time I have better luck with critters, at least I can hopefully keep up with them.

Good, you'll have another chance for a good tomato season.

Well, you can't really say you are gardening organically when you are using synthetic pesticides. Most people who use synthetic pesticides are not using them every day. For the most part, they too are using them "only when they need to."

If you are having problems with a particular insect or plant and you are an organic gardener, one option is to remove the plants for that year and see if the ground recovers. No one is going to die if they don't have any tomatoes this year, no? Especially not when it means something positive in the long-term for your plot: no poisons.

Last year I had many Japanese beetles. I had allowed some wild grape vines to grow unchecked because it is dirty and hot to pull them out, and they enjoyed eating them. This spring I pulled them all out and I have hardly any Japanese beetles as a result. So there are other ways of dealing with these things, but it requires doing things differently. Just like we might need to consider eating things only in season instead of all year round to cut back our use of petroleum products, so we might need to consider modifying how we garden in order not to use synthetics, no?

I am not someone who harangues people about using synthetics. But maybe we need to start thinking more seriously about not always having everything we want right now. Maybe we need to modify our demands from our gardens and just generally from the environment instead of insisting that we be supplied with what we want, regardless of the fallout. Something to think about.

Except in suburbia when they are getting sprayed on a regular schedule by hired companies.

I agree that using synthetics does not make you organic and I'm fairly new at organic veggie gardening. However given the frequency with which some of my neighbors spray, I would settle right now for a reduction in the use of synthetics or organic (some of these are still toxic) sprays and be happy about it.

paracelsus I guess because I sprayd a chemical pesticide once on my tomato plants that makes it non organic, I agree. However the fact is, that I don't have much space to grow my veggies, I have limited space to grow the ones that I am growing, if I have had a bigger plot I would have tried planting tomato plants in different parts of the garden to see which ones did better and would have pulled the ones where the critters were, the plants were not diseased they just had too many stinkbugs lurking around. I know I was careful when spraying and tried not to kill as many beneficials as possible, I also tried many organic methods as well and to no avail. the next morning I still saw bumble bees lurking around my tomato plants and other veggies as well. I am not saying my method was the best one but I decided to take a chance and to not let the bad bugs win this battle.

"Most people who use synthetic pesticides are not using them every day. For the most part, they too are using them "only when they need to" I disagree with this statement, people that use synthetic pesticide rely only on synthetic pesticides to kill their bugs, diseases etc... They don't rely or use organic methods. I rely on organic methods first and just sprayed once when things got out of controll and I could not controll them anymore.

Like I mentioned before the fact that we have warmer weather means we have a long growing season but it also means we get more bugs and pests as well to deal with.

This year I was also growing some yellow squash, and I had to remove the 4 plants I was growing because the cucumber bettle moved in my plants and completely destroyed them, I decided not to spray anything on them and just let mother nature take over and just disposed of the plants, so in this case I decided to get rid of the problem plants and placed some pepper plants instead.

If I had to rip off every single plant in my garden that had critters this year just because I want to keep organic I probably wouldn't have no veggies at all. My DH and family don't mind that I sprayed once on my tomatoes, because of it I was able to enjoy tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers etc... this year.

I am not a veteran gardener like you and this is really my first year growing veggies so I know I made many mistakes this year and I am learning from those mistakes and hopefully will get better. I really hope not to use any more chemicals on my plants ever again but to rip all my hard work just because of the bugs, I am sorry I will not.

I doubt that organic farmers use only and only organic methods, I am sure if their way of living is threatened by the bugs that they do too have to rely on chemical pesticides every once in a while.

Actually organic farmers do use only organic methods--that's why they can call their produce organic. If they "cheat" and use synthetic pesticides, fertilizers, etc of any sort at any time on their crops, then they are no longer organic and can't sell their produce as organic. So it is possible to grow crops completely organically.

Thank you for the clarification ecrane, I did not know that. But I have another question, what if I am an organic farmer but one year I have a plage of stinkbugs and I use a non organic spray, then I sell my produce as non organic but then next year I don't use any pesticides or chemicals of any kind whatsoever on my land then could I sell my produce as organic again or not? Just wondering.

I don't know what the specific rules on that would be. Most organic farmers though are committed to being organic so I doubt if there are very many who would switch back and forth being organic some years but not others. Keep in mind that organic doesn't mean you can't use pesticides--you just have to use organic ones when you do. There's enough variety of organic pesticides that you should be able to find one that will kill your pest.

I was reading back through the earlier discussion and noticed that the non-organic spray you used was Bayer Advanced. Did you check the label to see if it's OK to use on edibles? The Bayer Advanced that I know has imidacloprid as the active, which is a systemic insecticide that gets absorbed into the plant's tissues and stays there for an extended period of time. So I'd be surprised if it's recommended for use on things you're going to eat. If that's what you used then I wouldn't eat any more veggies from whatever plants you sprayed it on.

If an organic farmer decides to use synthetics on his/her plot, then they have to wait three years without using any other synthetics to claim they are organic again. That's how long they consider it takes for synthetics to get out of the soil or at least decrease to acceptable levels.

I have a city lot, which is small. It includes some large trees, so the areas where I can plant veggies is even smaller, mostly only some spots here and there with more or less full sun and not too many tree roots. I don't have a lot of bug pressure not because I am not down south but because I encourage plants that predator bugs like. Last year I watched as wasps patrolled the broccolis looking for caterpillars. If I had been spraying synthetics, I would not have any wasps.

Like I said, I think it is important not to insist that our gardens provide EXACTLY what we want but instead that we modify our expectations to fit reality instead of trying to force reality to fit our demands. This season up here, tomatoes are a dicey project because of the projected return of late blight, which wiped out most tomatoes in the northeast last year. I've grown tomatoes every single year I've gardened. I won't even eat the ones from the supermarket. I could have planted some resistant varieties to deal with that, like Matt's Wild Currant. Or I could have spent a fortune on copper, which is the approved organic spray for late blight and pretty darn poisonous too. Instead, I decided not to grow any tomatoes this year in order to help break the cycle of this disease. I grew some different food plants in their place. I even ended up experimenting with growing black nightshade (Solanum nigrum), which I have been learning about in the past year as a food plant (no, it is not poisonous). I'm growing three different varieties this year. I would not have done that if I had been mulish about the tomatoes this year, because I would not have had room.

My point is that modifying our behavior to go along with what's happening in our gardens means that we will not only treat our land better but we might actually learn something new. IMO, modifying one's behavior and having greater care for the land and ourselves is an aspect of organic gardening.

Paracelsus, I know a blueberry farmer in this area who is trying to raise some of his crop organically for the increasing market for such foods. As you say, he has to wait three years and use very specific sanitation methods during that period before his produce can be labelled organic. I buy the berries from those fields from him at a lower price, and I'm happy because I just don't want to eat fruit that's been sprayed. Interesting points about going with the flow re pests. I didn't grow squash for several years because I just couldn't protect it from the SVBs and squash bugs, but recently I've been having better luck.

Nice. I came on here to say that I've been thinking about your point about soil and plant health and its relationship to pest resistance. But now I don't have much of anything nice to say. You're making assumptions about us that absolutely aren't true. All for the sake of, what? Being able to lecture us about making sacrifices? I've made sacrifices. Last year I was happy to let the JBs have my pole beans. They ate them, multiplied, and gradually moved on to other things. This year, there are more of them. I could let them have the June strawberries; the strawberries would be fine and if they weren't who cares? But guess what? Next year there would be even more of the Japanese beetles. And if you know anything about JBs, they have very few natural predators. So is it smart to let them live and multiply all for the sake of keeping the Organic Badge of Honor for my hobby garden?

You want me to dig up 300 square feet of strawberries (which, incidentally, aren't even mine) and you think that the JBs that were concentrated there wouldn't fly off to the 950 square feet of my garden? I've planted a nice variety of plants there, and they would eat any and all of it without discrimination. I didn't spray the strawberry plants because I like strawberries so much and must have them. I'm not trying to "force reality to meet" my demands, as you charge, and I resent the accusation. I sprayed them because they would not produce again until next year, the person who owns them doesn't care, and they're kind of trap crop, in this instance, because they aren't part of my garden. And I chose rotenone/pyrethrin because it's supposed to break down fairly quickly, is mostly natural, and will get the job done with the least amount of spraying. And you know what? I learned something in the process. And I came here to discuss it on DG because I wanted to learn even more about it. But instead of a discussion of what the product is and what other people know about it, I'm accused by another member of trading synthetics for biocides, when I've never ever used a synthetic pesticide in the garden. Again, arrogance. It's called integrated pest management, and it's widely accepted.

Yes, I am aware that I can't call myself an organic gardener when I'm using products and materials that aren't OMRI-approved. I'm not an idiot; I'm a gardener with a problem looking for some support and information. The kind of attitude you're displaying here is exactly what turns people off to the organic movement. And we really don't need people hurting a cause that is so vitally important. If you want to educate people, that's great. But if you want to make people feel guilty for not living up to your standards, I would say that that's discourteous and unnecessary.

Dividensky I agree with you. I was under the impresion that I was beign attacked by using a non OMRI- approved spray to try to combat my problem with stinkbugs beacuse I just did not want to rip all my tomatoes out of the garden. I do as well come to Daves to ask for advice and I wish I would have gotten some regarding this problem I had, everyone that knows me well at Daves know for sure I was asking all over the place for info regarding the problem with stink bugs, I got nothing because seriously there is no cure for stinkbugs once they start taking over, except for non organic methods.

I have to also include something, the raise bed where I grew my tomatoes had the best soil of all my raise beds, I followed all the organic books to a T, place home compost, cow and horse manure, then took the time to get some green manure growing on it and tilled it down for the worms, then made scrap slushies to attract worms and even placed some of my red wigglers on the soil, by the time I was digging the soil to place all my tomatoes they soil was black and crumbly and teaming with worms, even tested it for PH and such, so the soil was really good if you ask me. Next to this raise bed however I have another one with top soil and cow manure from the store, at the time I did not have any home compost to put down, planted beans and cucumbers on this one, did not have time to grow the green compost etc... well I have to report that my beans except for a few worm damage and few cucumber bettles did not get damaged as much as my tomatoes so go figure. I definetely think good and healthy soil helps, but I still think that there is a misconception when everybody tells you that you wont have any bug damage at all if your soil is healthy, I really think bug damage can vary from year to year regardles of whether your soil is healthy or not and for watever reason this year has been one of the worst according to growers like me in this area.

Also if you want to be completely organic 100% why spray anything at all, even OMRI products can kill the beneficial insect as well, why not let mother nature take care of all your plants and you should only buy non treated organic seed as well.

I really I am not looking to label myself as organic all I really want is to enjoy my new found hobby, to try to save as much $ as possible on fresh produce and also to eat healthier in the process.

Like I said before I am completely new at gardening so I really don't have the experience but I really think I have learned a lot this year and hopefully next year I can implement what I have learned and not have so many problems with bugs and such.

Ecrane sorry I forgot to answer your question regarding the spray I used, yes it is safe to spray on vegetables, the only thing it says is that if you were to spray it on peppers which I didn't that then you would have to wait a week for you to be able to harvest the peppers, tomatoes and all other vegetables are safe to eat even the next day after spraying as long as you wash them.

This message was edited Jul 12, 2010 11:49 AM

What a nice and informative thread, Folks. I just want to interject that some of the rotenone/pyrethrin products out there are OMRI approved and considered organic; just trying to clarify this before we have the "organic" wars begin. (And I say that in a helpful tone of voice.)

As a quick addition, when PBO is added to this mixture only then does it become a non-accepted product in the organic system. (PBO being the piperonyl butoxide someone mentioned above, something to steer away from.)

Squash bugs. Ugh! They're a pain for me, too. I've gotten to where I grow a few squash plants and enjoy the harvest as long as I can before they (sq. bugs) take over. Meanwhile I tend to do my best with Safer's Soap with a bit of alcohol added to it and it holds them at bay for a while, especially zapping the nymphs plus the adults that climb to the top of the plants after I flood the plants with the water hose. (The adults come to the top to dry off in the sun then I get 'em!)

As a quick aside, "organic" vs "non-organic", there is good in both worlds when properly followed/learned, detriment in both worlds when education/information is lacking. Thank goodness we have lots of input on gardening websites from people with hands-on experience, opinions shared (as in this thread), and thoughts and questions that continue to help us to learn.

Carminator, dividedsky, I hope you keep sharing your words and choices, the whys and wherefores, and by all means, keep sharing your opinions as others on this thread have done. Paracelsus, "modifying our gardens/needs" sounds like what I've been doing by giving up a full season of squash (dagnabbit!), I just grow till I'm overwhelmed with the bugs; methinks the bugs and myself end up happy in the long run! *grin

Shoe

It IS informative, and I really appreciate the point of view of everyone here.

Carminator, I'm popping in just because I hope to encourage you. I'm not a newbie. I've been organic gardening for 19 years. That was before the "green" movement, and, actually, before too many people had heard of organic gardening. There certainly wasn't an OMRI around, and there weren't any organic veggies in the supermarkets, either. So, whatever my reason were for doing it, they weren't political or to give myself a label. And sometimes I really wish those things had never come into play.

I LOVE organic gardening. But, it was really tough going at first! We didn't know back then about beneficial nematodes and corn gluten meal and alfalfa and all the good things that are today's staples. It was a LOT of hard work--spread this, then spread this, then spray that, and if that doesn't work, try this or this... Totally hit or miss! Still, it was so worth it. I live on a suburban postage-stamp lot, and it had been bulldozed, and there were no frogs... lizards... bees... nothing left. :( The day I saw my first toad here, we celebrated. LOL. The next year there were earthworms, and lightning bugs, and geckos. Then the anoles and garden snakes. They all came back. And THAT is why I still do it.

I had squash bugs on my cushaw (cucurbit) the first time I grew it. You know, they don't really hurt the fruit; they're just disgusting. There wasn't, and still isn't, a good organic treatment for those. I didn't give up on the cushaw, though. The next year I grew them in pots. That year, we didn't have squash bugs, but we got squash vine borers. You really can't treat for those even with chemicals. So... the next year I planted the cushaw two weeks later, to break the borers' cycle. That worked well, but that year the flowers wouldn't fruit, even hand-pollinated. LOL. It's always something. And, there's always something new you can try.

I don't have too many pest problems any more. My frogs and lizards and birds take care of most pests. When I do, I have found that soapy spray or a little neem spray will take care of most things, and once every 2-3 years I have to get out the diatomaceous earth. But I don't think that you can ever solve ALL gardening problems, whether you use organics or chemicals. Plants will have pests and diseases, just like humans.

So, anyway, the reason I went through all of that is just that you said you're new to all of this, and I wanted you to know that you're not alone. ALL gardeners have some of these problems. As for organic vs synthetic--neither one will ever solve every problem you have. When you choose to skip the chemicals, you do at least have the satisfaction of knowing that you didn't harm the other organisms that are there to help.

pbtxlady, good to hear your story. We've been gardening organically since we moved here when our son was born, almost forty years ago, and we still wrestle with squash bugs and SVBs and such. In the beginning we read Rodale and Ruth Stout and tried to follow their advice. It's definitely not perfect, but at least we know that what we grow in our garden won't hurt us. I can certainly see that if the choice is between massively sprayed supermarket produce and your own veggies that have had one or two doses of a carefully chosen pesticide you might go with the latter, but everyone has to make his or her own decisions. But then, this IS the Organic Gardening forum, isn't it? So you have to expect a certain amount of conviction among people posting here. No one should take it personally.

This is the organic gardening forum. If you want to know about synthetic pesticides, go ask on the regular gardening forum. Don't come here and say, "I used some synthetic poison on my tomatoes because my family really really likes tomatoes, and that's okay, right?" Big surprise: synthetic poisons are not okay for organics. Don't get mad at that response and go on to accuse people of being mean for daring to disagree with what you are doing on an organic gardening forum. Good grief.

I was polite. I did not flame anyone here AT ALL. Perhaps I should have, so you would remember that there is a difference between being flamed and someone disagreeing with you. It's terrible but true. People disagree with you. People think synthetics are bad. OMG.

Japanese beetles? Milky spore powder. You can't just spray it on a bug and have it die. You have to put it in the soil.

What really gets me is making excuses about using synthetics in a GARDEN. We are not talking about people dying if they don't throw some Sevin around. We are talking about maybe having to get tomatoes at the farmer's market this year instead of one's own yard. This is what I mean about modifying the demands we make and being more considerate of the land.

Seems like an easy question went viral on the answers. So I'm struggling with what to say here. :-)

I think that carminator (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) and I are just looking for some solutions for how to handle what problems we are having. New to full fullscale veggie gardening. Looking to be responsible and healthy with what we are using. Not looking for a disertation on how irresponsible we are. It is an organic gardening thread. That is part of why we are posting here. I'm sure that everyone can remember back to when they started organic gardening and how much there was to learn.

I talked with someone about the cucumber beetles and one of their suggestions was to pull in more soldier beetles using hydrangea. So that will be one of the things we are looking at.

Hope everyone has a great day!

SusanKC

Seven acres of milky spore will cost well over a thousand dollars. Already priced it.

The original topic of this thread is pyrethrin, which, I'm told, is ok for organic practices if used responsibly. I used rotenone/pyrethrin, and Shoe was kind enough to help clarify when it's ok for organic practices and when it isn't.

greenhouse gal, what you're saying about the blueberry farmer seems to be typical in this area. All of our market producers will tell you where they're at as far as organic certification and why they aren't certified, if they aren't. And what they're doing to eventually get the certification. People appreciate the honesty and dedication and support them because in the end, it's good for all of us.

Thanks, Shoe, for the helpful info about dealing with squash bugs. I consider it a huge victory when I find a big cluster of nymphs and squash them before they ever have a chance to grow up. Even if I damage or remove the leaf doing it, it certainly doesn't hurt the plant overall.

Divdedsky - What's milky spore? Same here for the locals. A lot of them call themselves chemically responsible as they can't afford to quallify (or at least the last time I talked with them about it) as certified organic.

paracelsus if you look at my original posting I was asking about using pyrethrin a completely organic method so yes I do believe I posted in the right place, since my original attempt was to do it the organic way. The only reason I even comented in the spray I ended up using that was non organic was to mainly respond to SusanKC question about whether it worked or not then if you read a little further Susan was curious on the spray I had used so I just was telling her about it. Yes this is the organic site but what am I supposed to do ignore her questions because this is the organic site.

Now I do thank you for your posting, I think you were very helpful when you said that if you want to go the organic way that maybe just planting something else that year is the best, for example my peppers are doing pretty good this year maybe I should have planted more and not planted as many tomatoes, somebody in another forum suggested that the reason why they are attracted to the tomatoes is because they get attracted to the color of the tomatoes, and she suggested maybe planting some sunflowers in another part of the garden since they are attracted to sunflowers even more.

You can disagree of course but are you trying to get mad at people for using a different method or are you trying to help them understand why you are doing things different and try to educate people like me that are brand new to gardening.

pbtxlady, thank you so much for your very wonderful and informative organic method of gardening, even though I read many books about the subject it is from people like you and even paracelsus that I can learn the most.

If anything this has tought me is to be more patient and not always expect instant results the first year, books always tell you that the healthier the soil the less pests you get but I really did not know that it could take years for me to be able to achieve this, and that even people that garden organically for lots and lots of years can have problems with pests as well, that really is very conforting to know that I am not the only one with bug problems in the whole country.

I am really trying to learn and not trying to get enemies and sorry paracelsus I was mad when I wrote that coment and I appologize for that, next time I'll sleep on it before I comment on Daves.

I decided not to use the non organic spray anymore that of course is my choice because I do see the benefits of doing it the organic way, now I understand, thanks.

It's bacteria that you apply to the soil. It kills grubs over time. Seems that it's becoming quite popular to use because I see it even in the big box stores.

So does it also hit other subsurface creatures like earthworms or just go after the grubs?

dividensky so this milky spores is organic and it does kill grubs, I think I am having a problem with grubs on my front lawn, there are patches of grass that are brown looking and I have seen grubs when I had to dig the front lawn to place my fruit trees. I use my grass clipings for composting so I really want to be careful of what I can do to kill this critters even if it is organic.