Help please selecting tallest ornamental grass for zone 4

Hi everyone, I hoping someone can help me. I've had Hardy Pampas Grass before and I know it'll work for my zone 5, but if we have a hard winter and it's unprotected it will die, which has been the case - twice :((

I've researched and researched and am having a hard time finding the grass to fit my needs. I really want a clump forming grass - DEFINITELY not a spreader by stolens - that would grow really tall and wide serving as a screen and focal point that would be safe for zone 4.

Can anyone make any suggestions, please?

I happened across your post by accident, but have an answer! Miscanthus giganteus (or maybe Miscanthus floridulus, not sure they're really 2 different things). I've had some for 7 or 8 years, it gets at least 8 or 10' tall but the last 2 years with the very wet springs it's gotten about 15' tall. It has spread slowly and I must have ended up with a sterile form since I've never seen any seedlings come up. Stays up all winter even with heavy snow and I cut it back to the ground in early spring.

If you would like to try some, I'm nearby and could try to dig up a section for you, just let me know.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/1598/

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/31981/

Midwest - Thank you so much for the post and if you'd be so kind, I'd love to have a piece. It's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm looking for it to be a big screen. That's the one I thought would do well here but didn't know for sure and I've seen them around but nowhere that I could ask someone what theirs was. I had tried Hardy Pampas Grass but that died off over the winter. That one had very tough roots so if you find that yours is like that too and can't get a piece out - that's ok. I've been looking around for it but haven't had any luck so far in the garden centers.

You're welcome. I'll try to dig up a couple of sections and put them in pots for a week or two to make sure they survived, then let you know.

Not sure if you already saw this, but there are several good pictures of this grass by other locals, especially DonnaMack and pastime, on a different thread in this forum, although you have to go down a ways to see them:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/835780/

That's exactly what I need! I loved looking at the pictures in the linked forum - I just love grasses. So what do you use to cut them down in the spring? Will a hedge trimmer do the job? I'm excited and thanks again!

Well, my hedge trimmer doesn't work on it, although I think others in that thread said their's does. I use pruners and spread the job over a couple of weekends. The stems are really thick, like reeds, and I keep wishing I had a roof to thatch! I end up folding them in half and bundling them for the brush collection by the village. I think someone in that thread mentioned the leaves blow off the stems during the winter and scatter around the yard - true, but there's always stuff to clean up in the spring so I just clean them up then.

I pried up two sections yesterday and put them in plastic pots - I'll let you know if they survive. This grass has a sort of 3 or 4" long "tuber" a couple of inches below the surface, and I'm hoping that with that dug up they will resprout roots.

Wouldn't that be cool to use them for a roof - sit down under it with a Margarita or Pina Colada in hand and you'd feel just like you were in the Carribean!

Glad you were able to get some out for me. I'll be waiting to hear from you and thanks again!

medinac your grass is ready to drop off, sent you a dmail.

Greetings - just found this thread.

Just wanted to say that hedge trimmers don't work because the spent stems are actually light, but stay upright because they are strong. I use hedge trimmers on most of my other grasses (most of which are miscanthus) and found that duct taping them first works wonderfully, but I do exactly what Midwest does - hedge trimmers. I also do it over a couple of weekends, trim the finished canes and take them to the compost heap on a nearby farm. You will LOVE this grass.

But Midwest, was it difficult to cut sections out?

Donna



This message was edited Jun 2, 2010 7:56 PM

I'm reducing the size of the patch anyway this spring as I have other things I want to put in part of the space it's grown into, and have generally been using a pickax/mattock to dig it up which works fairly well. But that hacks the roots all to pieces so for medinacs sections I used a shovel to pry them up. The ground was wet so it wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't have tried it if the soil was dry. Besides the big clumps of roots this grass has my soil is heavy clay and turns into rock when dry, as I'm sure you know all about!

You read my mind. I want to reduce the size of the patch a bit. I used a mattock on another grass so that's the way to go. Mine has been incredibly healthy because my lawn slopes a bit to its location - but yes, the clay as rock thing I know.

Thank you. It's great to have such a knowledgable person who understands my issues and is so kind about sharing information.

Donna

Donna - I'm glad you mentioned the duct tape thing, that's a great idea. I probably won't have to worry about that for awhile but good to know.

Midwest - I STILL haven't gotten the grasses in yet, but the are just happy as you gave them to me. I just keep them moist and put them out in the sun for awhile and they're good! I have to pull that other stuff out first and plant them before I can get yours in.

Oh, and remember how I said I NEVER get aphids??? Well, I had my first major infestation of them this year. I noticed some white curly stuff on my boxwoods under my family room windows. I thought it was just seed dropping after their blooming. I brushed against them to turn the water on and OH MY GOSH, I was covered in them and they were just swarming! I got a squirt bottle of dish soap and warm water and just went to town. That took care of most of them but I still need to do that again. It was during that hot weather so I didn't want to go too crazy. Will hit them again today. Told my neighbor - she discovered she got black ones two days later and never had them before either. Go figure??

I laughed and cringed at the same time!

In mid April I took a rose out of the garage and since it was leafed out so early, it had THOUSANDS of aphids. The plant started to tip over and I grabbed it and I was covered with them. GROSS!

Aren't they revolting?

Donna, They ARE revolting. I've never experienced anything like that. I've had some a long time ago on veggie plants that I just hit with the garden hose but have never seen anything like that (thankfully!). Of course I've had everything else - you name it. What's currently driving me crazy is the gypsy moth caterpillars and inchworms that defoliate EVERYTHING in sight, oh, and then leave their disgusting poop all over! Those inchworms are buggars, they hide underneath the leaves so you can't find them easily.

Forgive me because I don't know any better....what is the relationship between early leaf out and aphids?

Food supply! Think about it. You're an aphid. You're hungry. There isn't much green yet. But you sneaked into a garage (nice place to curl up) and wow! There's a 3 foot tall plant covered with leaves. When very little else is covered with leaves. And it's warm, relatively speaking. So you nibble away. And reproduce like mad, because females don't need a male to reproduce.

YUM!

Okee dokee, got it... and do they ever reproduce - and wow even without a male, imagine that.... and I'll leave it right there thank you very much!

Well now that I know what to look for (at least I think) hopefully I'll be more on top of that!

Yuck about the aphid hordes!! I had a lot of aphids on my roses this spring too. Not near as bad as your little green caterpillers, medinac, I hope you've managed to get rid of most of those nasty things! And I'm sure the grass will be fine, it's a very tough plant!

You're very welcome Donna, but I laughed about the knowledgable, most of my gardening know-how came from right here on DG from others sharing, including of course you! All the info you post on the Rose Forum is much appreciated by all!

How nice of you to say! I just came from the rose forum where I was posting about Zephirine Drouhin. I figure I can save people a lot of grief. I figure that I should try to share more info, since some of my roses were installed as early as 2003, so they have some history.

Hey, I got one of the grasses planted this weekend. I amended that bed and moved the other grasses out into it so that made room for yours. I hope I allowed plenty of room for it!

I read that the green caterpillars come from the trees, mostly the oaks, which makes sense I guess - those roses are right by the oaks. I monitored them twice daily and picked them off and squished them. One evening I was out there in bare feet and ran across one. I picked it off barehanded, threw it to the ground and squished it barefooted! I muttered to myself "How do you know when you've had it with garden pests? When you can pick and squish with bare hands and feet, that's how"!!! Okay, I guess I have to add that I was watering too so at least I could quickly rinse my feet off!

The shrub roses have really been my first successful attempt at roses. I just bought Joseph's Coat to train onto a trellis. I'm not very optimistic about it blooming well though where I put it. I don't think it's going to get enough sun. It's on the east side but the trees block some of the sun. I figure if it doesn't get bloom well, I'll just have to cut it down and replant it elsewhere.

Hi, all. I also grow Miscanthus floridulus. I love it and couldn't do without it. I have two very large clumps well over 6-8 feet wide. I cut them one cane at a time with hand pruners. I use a Fiskars brand where the handle you pull with with your fingers rotates about 90 degrees and doesn't wear your hands out. I cut all my grasses with them. Except for the few you can cut with scissors. I have lots of grasses. I start sometime in December or January and cut a few every now and then and then by the end of March I am done with them.

Medinac, it sounds like you've been busy!

Killdawabbit (one of my favorite handles) you really seem to have cutting your grasses down. I start in March and there are always a couple of days in which I feel a touch overwhelmed. Starting earlier makes sense - and youe Fiskars tool sounds neat. They make the best tools, don't you think?

Yes, they do. I can't imagine doing without the revolving handled pruners. Their loppers and other stuff is great too.

killdawabbit (love that name!) - I haven't seen those fiskers, I'll have to look for those. I'd think at a nursery for them? I think here we'd have to wait until Feb. or March to get out there and start cutting down. That's smart to get working on them early. I always get overwhelmed getting them all cut down but I still love them. That's what nice about the grasses, at least the garden pests leave them alone!

med, I got mine at Home Depot. I bought two pairs. Always have to have a spare you know? I'm good at losing things.
If not in your local HD you might want to try here.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100086608&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100086608&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D28X-_-100086608&locStoreNum=3902&marketID=58

A little pricey maybe. But oh so worth it.

Ok, thanks very much! If it saves your hands, it's worth it~

Cheryl, here's a pic of part of my grass garden taken on June 4th. The Miscanthus giganteus is on the left. Mine usually gets around 10-12 feet tall with another 1-2 feet of plumes when they come out. We were on the local garden tour on June 5th and a LOT of people had questions about/loved this grass. I'm going to try and divide some of mine this fall before it spreads so much that it takes over the other grasses. I really do like it a lot.

Doug

Doug,

All I can say is OH MY GOSH!!! That is absolutely gorgeous!! That Miscanthus really sets everything off and is really a focal point in your garden. Yes, I can see where you will probably need to divide it, it looks like it's creeping up on your other grasses. Who would have thought you could create such beauty simply with grasses???? Great picture, great garden. Thanks for posting! I see visions.....hmmm....

Miscanthus floridulus does spread but relatively slowly. One factor would probably be soil quality and moisture. I have two very large clumps that I planted about 20 years ago. The most I've done is spray some Roundup where I don't want it to go. Like over and through one of my roses. And it took years before I had to do that. .
As with anything else the more water you give it the taller it will grow and bloom better. But it's not a rampant spreader by any means.
Awesome stuff!

Hello. I have a problem with a grass colled "Jose Select" I chose it because it is hardy and will stand up through out the winters here. (zone 5 ) I put six of them behind my glider as it is 4-5 feet from the fence. I tried to grow them last year but they just wouldn't grab hold and grow. This year I put another 6 plants back there and the same thing is happening. I need to either figure out what the problem is or pick another plant to put behind the glider. It sits in the corner of my yeard so there is a triangle behind it that I want to fill for a back drop. I would appreciate any thoughts you all have on this.

Mableruth,

I was researching your grass, which I assume is Elytrigia elongata "Jose Select" (Tall wheatgrass). Is that correct? It is supposed to be zone 4 hardy but I also read that it naturalizes best at high altitude (elevations over 6000 feet).

I'm taking a guess here, but I am seeing recommended in articles for places like Colorado Springs and the mountains of New Mexico at 6000 feet. Colorado Springs (I've been there - lovely place is at about 8,000 feet).While the zone may be the same, conditions are not. High Country Gardens is one of the places that carry it, and their specialty is drought tolerant plants but some of them do not work in our heavier, clayier soil. I had the same experience with penstemons. They do very well in the kind of sharply drained soil they have in certain parts of the west, but even though our soil is also alkaline, plants that thrive there tend to "DROWN" in our relatively rich soil. Digitalis Husker Red was bred in Iowa, and works well, but all the others disappeared.

Again, this is a guess, but you are experiencing exactly what I did. Drought tolerant and zone appropriate in sandy soil does not equal the same qualities in richer soil.

Donna

I think that is the problem, and you may simply not be able to grow it in your soil as it is, as I could not grow western high altitude penstemons.



This message was edited Jul 2, 2010 12:54 PM

Very good answer Donna!! I think we tend to forget that just because the "zone" may be appropriate, the "conditions" are not. Soil PH is another factor that may come into play in situations like that.

Doug

I'm having a hard time with Alkali Sacaton/Sporobolus airoides probably for the same reason. It lives but it doesn't grow.

Kyle, I'm afraid that may be the case.

And thank you Doug. I noticed that HCG is trying to add to their listings recommendations about clay soil.

Mableruth,

If you are really desperate to have that particular grass, you could try what I did to get finally get butterfly weed (asclepias tuberosa) to survive in my yard on the third try (I REALLY REALLY wanted it!) - add sand to the soil as well as peat moss, and build up a mound 2 or 3 inches high to plant it on. I used a cheap potting mix that was mostly peat moss and sand and mixed it about 50/50 with the native clay. This seemed to finally give it the excellent drainage it wanted and it's now in it's third year and doing great. No guarantee how long it will last but I'm enjoying it while it's (finally) here!

Of course, besides the soil any of those western desert loving plants could also hate our humidity, or the amount of snow in the winter (too much, too little, on the ground too long or not long enough....), or ???

Too bad the whole country doesn't have zones like Sunset magazine set up for California which take into account a lot more than just the lowest temp. But experimenting is fun too....

Actually Sunset has zones for the whole country...but outside of the West they don't get used much. Here's a link where you can look up the zones for your part of the country: http://www.sunset.com/garden/climate-zones/climate-zones-intro-us-map-00400000036421/

For things that High Country Gardens sells...one other thing you might find useful on their website is if you scroll down to the bottom of the listing for a particular plant, it'll often tell you how many inches of annual rainfall the plant can handle, as well as the type of soil it can grow in. If you're on the upper end of the rainfall a plant can tolerate, make sure you're giving it really good drainage (even if they say it can handle clay, it likely can't handle clay + the upper end of its water tolerance). Also make sure you're not giving this sort of plants a lot of supplemental water once they're established--most of you in the midwest probably get 30-40 inches of rain a year and as you go south slightly more, and I've noticed that 30-40 inches per year is the most rain that most of the HCG plants can tolerate. So if you're getting 30-40 inches from Mother Nature and then adding an extra inch a week during warmer weather if it doesn't rain, the plant is effectively getting a lot more than 30-40 inches and it won't be happy with that. (if you don't know your annual rainfall, here's a nice map of the country that shows avg rainfall amts: http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/images/pdf/precip/pageprecip_us3.pdf )

Thanks ecrane!!!

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. I think you got it nailed. I do not think I can till all that good stuff into my soil. Actually I know I cannot. My husband and I both have limitations on what we can and cannot do because of health issues. I am sending a picture of where the glider is so you know what I am talking about. I have had that same glider for at least 16 years and it has been rotting and the paint is off and the frame squeakes. Two times my husband has insisted that it was tine to get rid of it but I cannot do that. He will need to hire a carpenter to duplicate it. My daughter painted it for me this year but I know I cannot keep it forever even though I am going to try. I rocked my grand children on that glider. I believe what I will do is pick another plant that I think will survive there and just put large pots of it back there.