roybird and snakeadelic's snake thread

I know the removal of members was complicated and no one was 100% innocent in the resulting arguments. None of it was handled diplomatically from any direction by anyone. At this point, it is what it is and those details are water under the bridge.

However, while the hate mail began all of this (and that _is_ what started the whole thing), my concern is for what is happening to our forum NOW and moving forward. Roybird's farewell wasn't mean spirited, just an expression of sadness, disappointment and frustration. It didn't deserve deletion.

The current problem we're facing is the rift caused by a lack of information (caused by the deletions) and the resulting inability for the group to process and mourn the massive changes that have happened in our forum. Dave's thread was allowed to stay. Everyone expressed their grief and that forum is now moving on to the technical details of the change in ownership as it should. It worked beautifully and was a healthy way for that group to heal. We were not given the the same opportunity and our community is suffering as a result.

This is why I am petitioning admin to re-think the policy of deleting the goodbye threads (and the aggressive editing in general). A community should be allowed to evolve and heal, warts and all, without having its history erased.

Amen, Judy - I agree 100%!

I couldn't agree with you more Judy.

At times I could not understand this whole thread. I thought that there might be side mails, (D-Mails) but apparently the postings were deleted by the administrator. That clears up a lot for me.

As a paying member of Dave's Garden, I would hope that those who administer the site would follow the same guidelines as outlined under the USC and granted by the by the Bill of Rights concerning freedom of speech. That freedom of speech is granted in it's entirety unless it is done to incite violence, discord or anarchy.

Only with freedom can knowledege and wisdom grow, leading to patience and understanding.

Sonny

I've been plainly told that the policies of deleting goodbye threads will not change and that "abusive" posts will continue to be edited. So no changes despite my best efforts (sorry gang).
I hope this thread will stay up so that our community members can look at the discussion and understand how things are to be.

-jude

As a private enterprise, we have an Acceptable Use Policy. Here's a link to it: http://davesgarden.com/aboutus/tos/

We all agreed to adhere to the AUP when we signed up for membership:

Over the past decade, these rules have provided the structure for the site you enjoy here, allowing it to grow into a fun, informative and friendly place, with almost a half-million members and millions of visitors a month. That's a pretty good track record, and it doesn't seem necessary to change it at this time, especially if the reasoning is to give members the ability to offend and attack one another in the name of free speech.

Then please ensure us that this policy will be applied equally to all.

Absolutely we will, as consistently as we possibly can, given the size of our admin team (two) and the volume of posts here every day (which is only one component of our to-do list ;o).

If you see an offensive post, please don't assume we're letting it stand - it's most likely that we simply haven't seen it and don't know about it. Let us know and we'll take care of it confidentially and discreetly.

For MissingRosie: how to avoid them -- watch for stony areas and low vegetation that provide cover. NEVER put hands or feet in places you can't see clearly (spiders can be worse and much more common than snakes!).

how to recognize them -- Not sure offhand what the best field guides are. As for venomous or not, all the toxic North American snakes I know of (rattlers, copperheads, cottonmouths, corals) either have noticeably triangular heads or follow the "Red touch black, venom lack; red touch yellow, kill a fellow" rhyme. Many species are mimics, especially among the milksnakes & kingsnakes. Corn snakes also mimic rattlers, not only with the body pattern but in the defensive habit of vibrating the end of their tail in piles of leaves or pebbles to fake a rattle--Den used to do that when agitated, and Qanuk still does. Nevluk just hangs on until everything's okay again ;)

how to deal with them -- Whenever possible, don't touch a wild snake. They can harbor parasites such as salmonella, which doesn't require a bite to transfer across species lines. If you have to remove a wild snake from your house, try to pick it up with a long stick if you can. NEVER touch a snake if you don't know whether it's poisonous--that old grab-behind-the-head trick can fail very, very easily due to snakes' ability to disjoint most of their skulls at will! If you don't have a long stick, heavy gloves can help if you're sure the snake isn't poisonous. It should be placed inside a clean, dry glass or plastic container with air holes until it can be turned over to authorities or released back into the wild. When dealing with captive snakes, always ask permission before touching one, and watch for pre-strike behavior. This is rarely species-specific--they all get tense and curvy like an uptight rattler. Never touch a snake if you've been handling small animals recently and haven't thoroughly washed your hands. Always sanitize your hands as thoroughly as possible after handling a snake, especially a wild one.

how not to be afraid of them -- Most snakes have 2 basic rules: Don't Frighten Me and Don't Get Near Me Smelling Like My Food. Some are flighty, some are aggressive, some are so stoopid their owners nickname them Short Bus (long story), but snakes are all basically a fierce predator that's usually inclined to flee from anything larger than itself on the grounds of the number of things in this world that consider them a nice stringy snack. They read vibrations in the ground with incredible sensitivity; I had to move my snows to a friend's house for 3 weeks last year during construction across the street because the vibrations from the heavy equipment were literally scaring them to death. A snake that is overloaded on adrenaline is in a fight for its life; if the stimulus causing the adrenaline spike doesn't go away, the snake can die of shock the same way mice can. Most snakes do not see well, so sudden movement is much more likely to alarm them than slower, smooth movement. My big orange Den was kind of an ambassador to the phobic, exemplified by the gal at a sci-fi convention who begged to hold him because she wanted to see if it could break the phobia, and ended up adoring him for 20 minutes to the tune of quotes like "He's just one long muscle! I never had any idea they were so strong when they're calm!" Best thing to reduce or eliminate fear of snakes is usually (results vary from person to person, of course) contact with trustworthy owners & animals. Look for people who present their snake in a 'control hold', with its head under control; this shows that they're concerned about you as well as their pet no matter how much they praise its temperament.

how not to let them take a bite out of me -- Watch for the pulled-back head and tension. If you see that, stay at least the snake's body length away and you will usually be out of range. When handling them, move with smooth, relaxed confidence as best you can. Another thing to which snakes are enormously sensitive is airborne chemicals, including pheromones like those released by a frightened mammal. Their tongues are forked to follow trails, telling them by the strength of scent and pheromone molecules the tongue picks up which direction the animal they're following turned. Snakes can flick their tongues around corners, too--you have NO idea how stunned I was the first time I saw Den do that! Wear gloves if you even think you're in snake country, preferably leather ones. Always tuck your jeans into your boots when hiking, which will keep the spiders out too. If you encounter a wild snake in threat mode, holding very still will often cause them to 'lose' you, particularly if it is NOT a rattler or other heat-pit-equipped species.

Snake - Thank you for such a long detailed and informative post.
Please don't be disgusted with me when I tell you that just reading it scared the cr_p out of me. The word "Pit" in conjunction with snake is terrifying to me. My interest in reading posts that contain the 'snake' word is to load myself up on info that helps me to avoid snakes. I am not kidding when I say that I feel anxiety just typing this.

One would question my sanity after seeing the very long and wide pondless stream running right in front of my front door...running along the complete length of the front of the house (which is surrounded on all sides by woods. ....) I wanted to hear 'frogs through the windows' ... I did not consider the frogs' siren call to the snakes.

I grew up in Brooklyn....I didn't know I was afraid of snakes. I had no idea when I bought this property that snakes can climb trees. I get under an umbrella just to walk to my car every morning. I wear boots to get the mail. I am on 'snake lookout' all the time. I got to take a stiff drink just to pull weeds. I have it in my head that snakes don't come out in the hot sunny afternoons and PLEASE don't tell me anything different.

I would like to do something to the stream to deter the snakes... Maybe make the water unattractive to the frogs. If I try to fill it in with dirt (or concrete) -- then a divorce will ensue. (Because I had to
insist on that stream...I had hear frogs') (I grew up hearing trains overhead...frogs I thought would be better...cute even.)

Standing on the rock ledge bordering the stream and looking into the faces of three little copperheads (where WAS momma???) was enough for me. I personally saw a 5 foot snake as big around as my arm leap into that water as I left the house. I saw a snake sunning itself on the flagstone (Flying Delmonte Soup Cans DID NOT deter it....) (Nor did Green Giant Creamed Corn)

Snake, I am a live and let live kinda gal ......but this is way too much for my mind to wrap itself around.

A SNAKE IN THE HOUSE!! That has NEVER crossed my mind. The bird in my house almost killed me. I chased it with a pot cover until it exhausted itself. It probably thought I wanted to pot it up and have it for dinner. Look, I am no sissy. A huge and wild-eyed saliva dripping and aggressive dog came running at us while walking my puppy ..it was looking at with bared teeth and like we were lunch... I punched that big boy right in the nose and knocked it down... really.. I am no delicate flower. I took the subway all over manhattan at all hours of the night alone... I wandered the streets of Naples (now that is scary) at night and when I was mugged in the same fair city by thugs on a motorcycle who grabbed my camera out of my hand ----I tried to pull the brat off the bike..another second and I woulda had him!

Re: warning snake poses: I brought a load of leaves to my (now abandoned) compost pile and saw many snakes in the 'tension pose' you describe and if I could have video taped me running backwards pulling a wheeled barrow.... stumbling... landing on my tush and scrambling backwards trying to get out of Dodge (pre heart attack) ...that funniest video $$$ prize would be mine and that stream would be history.

So again -- thank you for your informative answer -- I will internalize all the useful parts.

And, how does one ask permission from a snake anyway? If the signal is urine spilling into ones shoes --then I have asked permission many times. If the snake can go into overload from vibration ---then the tachycardic thumping of my heart will surely have killed many a snake... I urge you to rethink that bit of advice.

Excellent snake info!
I don't know how I feel about snakes. Indifferent I think.

I am most definitely _not_ a fan of spiders. They never bothered me until my experiences with jumping spiders in one house we rented a long time ago. They launched from the ceiling down the back of the neckline of my clothing not once, not twice, but on three separate occasions! I know they're not poisonous, but they do bite. I'm sure the neighbor got a kick out of me hopping around my living room desperately pulling my clothes off! The last straw was when one of them crawled into my ear canal to get cozy while I was asleep. It was a horrible experience and now I will kill most any spider I see (that are not pets). Fortunately, one of my cats will get to any wayward spider in our current house before I even see them.

Oh Man
Spiders

Zeesh, I like snakes, and spiders, too, but I admit I've never had any of the latter bed down in my ear. Eeeeeuw!

And we don't have poisonous critters except for rattlesnakes and possibly cottonmouths, but this would be the northern edge of their range. That probably makes a difference. One of the black snakes, I think the rat snake, will bite but it's not venomous.

People I know who live in snake territory usually wear high boots to do their chores, but I'm talking serious rattlesnake country.

Missingrosie, do you have a cat? They seem to deter them somewhat. I found ours torturing a beautiful, gentle little green snake; I had to take it away, rinse off its scratches in the river, and hide it under the kids' playhouse in hopes that it would recover.

We don't have much in the way of snakes except rattlers and they like the open areas, not the city.
Spiders of many types seem common here including brown recluse and black widows (and those not so little nasty jumping spiders).

We have both black widows and brown recluse spiders but I don't think I've ever encountered either, although someone found a black widow at the school where I worked. My GD was dying for a tarantula, but considering how she ignored the guinea pig that she talked me into buying for her and keeping at our house, no way was anyone getting her another pet! And at least guinea pigs have the advantage of being cuddly and somewhat responsive.

I found a black widow in my mailbox. The newspaper guy put the newspaper in there (that was before things got so strict) and under the plastic wrap around the newspaper was the black widow. Perfect hourglass.

Missingrosie, I'm picturing you out there throwing canned goods to the snakes lol :D! I've seen rattlers & bull snakes while bike riding. My husband rode over a bull snake once (accidentally & didn't kill it). We have garter snakes in our garden, they don't bother me.

That snake didn't budge and those cans came real close.

I am not so much worrying about the poisonous aspect -- I don't know what it is .....there is just something about the movement it just seems to me that the snake can move 1000 miles/hour. Plus there is that part of 'should I move..should I stay still...' what is going to get it to go ballistic less quickly.. Snakeadelic gave some great info.

Since this thread has changed it's theme, I'm starting a new one here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1078697/

This message was edited Feb 28, 2010 6:07 PM