roybird and snakeadelic's snake thread

At the suggestion of Terry, we'll continue the discussion of snakes and such here. We came from
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1072805/

Either that or we could call this the Peter Pan thread. Think happy thoughts or you can't fly.

Yay, let the insanity continue!

Roybird still is not planning to be back on here without Betty, just in case anyone wondered.

I _really_ don't like it when admin locks threads and deletes conversations. Grrrrrrr.

News update: Despite requests by Betty and others for her reinstatement, she will not be back.

I'm outa here too. Snake, nice meeting ya! if only briefly. Good luck with the cats and the northfacing window. The heck with it, see about just growing a bunch of catnip, maybe. Sometimes if the cats get stoned enough they forget to mess up all the fun stuff we leave around in their paths of destruction.

Dave who is Dave, I thought the trick in Peter Pan was clapping your hands and b'lieving it so. Hmm. Well, it was a nice thought, one among many I am sure. So I expect to see y'all flying by any ole day now.

;-)

peace out,
Kyla

Whhoooossshhh. I can see the fairy dust trail she's leaving across the sky.

I agree Jude. Having the admin remove/censor a thread because the content is "unpleasant" (or whatever) from their perspective is not agreeable to me. Thus the Peter Pan.


Thanks for the update mulch. I figured as much.


Snakeadelic, I was thinking the same thing as Kyla. Perhaps a plant or two that was highly preferrable to the cats to distract them from the rest would help.

This message was edited Feb 27, 2010 2:50 AM

I have concluded I like the idea of calling this the Peter Pan thread. Integrity is when words, actions, and energies all match each other in correct alignment. And what has been referenced here about Peter Pan is the concept that from belief naturally arises a state of being in which actions match belief, an assertion of innocent integrity before adult manipulations enter the picture. I like that.

Fairly recently X-dave (so called to distinguish in a simple way between the former owner of this site and our esteemed RMer Dave who is Dave) anyway, X-dave publicly posted that he had banned someone for "going over his head" by communicating with the new ownership. The new ownership asserted a policy that they want direct feedback from the members without fear of retribution. This same new ownership chooses to uphold X-dave's action.

I am left wondering if in a friendly spirit we should just take up a collection and send them all copies of Peter Pan? Sometimes going back to the basics is the best thing, and this might be a joyful and upbeat way to do just that. It would be a much better solution than just deleting words, which does nothing whatsoever to create integrity.

This message was edited Feb 20, 2010 8:44 AM

Your clarity is breathtaking, Mulch. Thanks for that.

I'm not going away either. I just don't like it when someone with power arbitrarily closes and deletes our conversations. It is not conducive to the nice community feeling we have enjoyed on the rocky mountain forum and seems antithetical to the community-building purpose of this website.

I'm definitely glad this thread got moved--if it hadn't, I would have been asking about getting that done. It is a shame to lose forum members, especially ones as well-liked as roybird and friends seem to be. In the meantime, as far as the cats are concerned I am an intruder in THEIR house; if they're awake and I walk into the living room or kitchen one or both will start darting around refreshing their "markers" by doing everything except spray. I have responded by simply refusing to interact with them in the hopes they don't start actually spraying! And these cats go above & beyond the call of destructive duty. Way beyond. Like the male trying to pull the entire 4-foot Christmas tree, stand and all, down off the dining table *with his teeth*, dragging it over the edge by the dishtowel under the stand, probably hoping that once it was no longer in the "No Cats On Tables EVER" zone we'd -have- to let him tear it apart. The female's favorite hobby growing up was peeling carpet, by which I mean hooking her claws in and yanking half a square yard at a time up off the floor so she could play with the foam backing. We had to have her declawed before moving into a situation where property value is a factor, and she has proceeded to ignore ginger, black & red pepper, grapefruit seed extract at full strength, and bitter lime to CHEW an eight-inch strip of carpet loose from the brass bar separating carpet from kitchen. I've never met cats like these before in my life! I'll stick with my creepy critters, thankee much--reptiles don't mess with you nearly as much as mammalian pets! Below are the creepies as of today, Qanuk (the male, word is Inuit for 'snowflake') in front with the high-yellow throat marking and Nevluk (the female, word is Inuit for 'clinging snow' and describes her when handled--not aggressive but she do hang on!) with her paler saddle marks behind. The red spot on Qanuk, visible to the far left of the pic, is a birthmark. He's had it his whole life as far as I know, and it hasn't changed in the years he's been with me.

Hey Snake, glad you have not disappeared. I would get rid of the cats and just get more snakes. I think life would be a lot more enjoyable that way from your description of those cats!

I had a friend who bought a house in Scottsdale some years back. Two Persian cats lived there. The owners said the cats would stay with the house. My friend said, no, she was allergic to cat fur. They said the cats had refused to move when the previous owners had sold the house, and kept coming back. The only solution was to put the cats down.

My friend did not want to kill them so she took them to a groomer and said to shave them. The groomer was horrified and only did it when she understood the alternative. The cats looked awful, but they were perfectly happy anyway and my friend could live with them as long as she kept them bald. Some cats are really stubborn.

Do your snakes have to be held at the head and the tail both so they don't panic? My friend's boa had to be held that way.

I have cats too. When they behave destructively it results in their loosing privelidges. They go outside, want to or not. They come back in with a different attitude. Whether they think so or not, it is my house.

If I may step in for just a moment?

Since I'm the one who closed and then removed the last thread, I feel I should perhaps try to respond to some of your concerns.

1) As far as a member's removal - we won't share details when a member is reprimanded or removed, because we respect every member's privacy. But what I can tell you is the Acceptable Use Policy has a preface which states:

I would direct you to the third sentence - All members who have been removed from the site, have been removed due to repeated violations of these very rules.

That holds true in this case, despite what you may have deduced from Dave's post, or from what you've heard elsewhere. Removing a member is something we do only as a last resort, when we have reason to believe a member is going to deliberately and repeatedly continue to violate one or more of the rules set out in the AUP. We don't like removing members; it runs contrary to the very reason we operate a community website and - realistically, it's bad for business.

2) We do occasionally move or remove threads that we feel should be moved or removed. You may not always agree with our reasoning for moving or removing something, but we try to be as fair and consistent as we can and we don't take such actions on a whim, or arbitrarily. If we move or remove something, it's because in our administrative experience, it is the prudent thing to do for the good of the whole community. Case in point: when someone chooses to leave, we don't allow a "goodbye thread" to linger. Ruminating over why someone chooses to leave is generally not a good thing for a community to do, so we remove those threads to help those staying to move beyond that member's decision..

If you have any questions for us, you are always welcome to use the "Contact Us" link to reach the helpdesk.

Terry

piffle

Not disagreeing with #1.
Am disagreeing with #2.

As we tend to do in this particular forum, threads tend to wander and evolve. When it gets too long or someone want s anew thread, they will start one with links from the old to the new and visa versa. In reading that thread in its entirety, it's obvious that we _had_ moved on from "Ruminating over why someone chooses to leave" until you intervened, closed the thread and deleted it, thereby re-opening the wound. In this case, the closing of the thread was not a good thing for this community.

If #2 is to applied fairly and consistently, why is this goodbye thread still up? http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1074451
Or any of the others scattered about?

Dave's goodbye thread is arguably a little different. DG was his site, and there are still some members who haven't heard the news. His thread has been allowed to remain out of respect for him and what he created here.

If there are other threads we should take a look at, please let us know - we try to apply the rules fairly, but we don't pretend to see or read everything.

I agree we don't always make the correct choices on how to handle things. If I had simply removed the "goodbye" thread in question, would that have been preferable to posting a note to let you know it was going away? We have used both approaches; and while it doesn't always work well to post a note, I tend to think that most people like having some warning when something is about to be deleted. But that's not always the case.

Terry, Xdave sold the site three years ago and I think even the most inattentive members have figured that out by now. If they have not, it apparently would not matter much to them. His good bye thread is simply addressing an administrative change with the third new ownership, which is a completely different matter than when he originally sold the site.

I am sure you genuinely do not perceive a double standard in that anything Xdave does is fine and others doing the same thing have their posts deleted or are banned entirely. Whether you perceive it or not, it still has a negative impact and is likely the biggest factor in your dilemma where you agree you don't always make the correct choices on how to handle things. It is a significant issue really worth considering as you attempt to manage DG in a manner that creates rather than destroys community.

I do believe you do want to create community, but all anyone has to do is look at Rocky Mountain forum to see something has gone very badly wrong, and I am referring to the vast reduction of happy community interaction when I say that. The posts of dismay are not the problem, but simply an indicator of the nature of the problem. And the problem is not how you go about deleting a thread either. You have to look deeper than that to find the root problem.

I have no problem with the request to start a new thread, but you could have asked us if renaming the original would be agreeable (to avoid the word 'goodbye' in the thread list) rather than deleting everything that our friends old and new wrote there. It would have been much more respectful to our community.
We mountain folk are a very agreeable and friendly bunch, but we also feel strongly about the right of self expression and respect for all.

mulchmania, I don't mean this to be argumentative, please know that. Yes, Dave's Garden was sold three years ago. However, both Dave and I remained in our previous roles after that sale, so there wasn't any need to say "goodbye" at that time.

The sale to NameMedia was announced similarly to the subsequent sale of the site to Internet Brands. The difference in this event and the one in 2007 was that Dave chose to leave his position this time; hence, his farewell statement. So yes, I will defend my decision to leave his thread up for the time being. ;o)

I fully accept that we sometimes make decisions that - in retrospect - we wish we had taken another tack. Can anyone among us say we haven't wanted a do-over on something we did or said?

A key difference in this situation is that sometimes the very same action results in dramatically different outcomes - one group may accept the removal of a thread and go on, while others demand to know who removed it and why. Or vice-versa. So we feel our way through these processes and do our best, given what we have learned over the years. Are our decisions going to always be popular with the group? No. We know that, and so we make the best decision we can and will explain our thought process when we are asked. But at the end of the day, somebody ultimately has to make some really hard decisions and stick by them in order to manage a website of any size.

To both of you, I want you to know that am sorry that some members of this forum have chosen to leave - truly I am. But all I can do is address the concerns that people bring to me; I can't chase after anyone if they choose to walk away without giving us an opportunity to prove ourselves or answer their questions or concerns.

DenverJude, your point is well taken. However, a lot of that thread dealt with saying goodbye, too--not just the title. Going through and surgically editing a thread is a manual effort consisting of judgment calls at every turn. If we make a misstep, at least in someone's estimation, then we're left to defend and explain why we deleted some things but not others.

Terry, I already acknowledged that I did not think you perceive a double standard in the situation, so I am not taking your remarks as argument.

I am merely suggesting that unnoticed double standards create all manner of havoc. This results in situations that are difficult, or perhaps impossible, to solve without digging into what has not been clearly perceived or understood. This goes far deeper than anybody's good bye thread and what happened or did not happen to it.

I wouldn't want that thread to have been surgically edited. I wanted what my friends wrote to stay.

I was suggesting that you could have asked us if we would agree to a different thread title so that the word 'goodbye' was no longer in the thread list (which I assume is the bigger issue here). It would not have been difficult to do. You could have renamed it 'roybird & snakadelic' or something (and told us so and why, along with the suggestion to start a new thread) and left the rest of the thread there so that we on the RMG forum would not feel censored. We would have happily moved along on our merry way. The old thread would have had minimal additional activity and soon dropped down on our thread list and been forgotten.

I have to tell you that as a community, we feel that our freedom of expression has been violated and most are hesitant to post anything of substance (or personality) in the RMG forum anymore for fear of being edited, deleted or banned. Instead we (RMG forum members) are now walking on eggshells and it shouldn't be this way just because the site has new owners. The silliness and fun has gone out of it, not because of the sale or that dave is no longer running things (that never mattered much to most of us), but because we're afraid of expressing ourselves now.

I know your job is hard (I really do!) and I'm sure all of this is frustrating the heck out of you, but if you're going to be an effective pilot (especially during change) you've got to listen to the communities you are trying to steer. I'm not trying to be mean or vindictive. I'm trying to give input that may save our beloved RMG Forum from imploding further than it has.

I couldn't agree more with the last bit here, Terry. A nice, round dozen of the RM forum members have flown off to Never-Never Land together due to Pajarito being banned. A few are still posting here, but it's primarily about our discontent.

Banning sure doesn't look like "a last resort" in Paj's case. It looks like a fit of pique that Dave had about someone going over his head. Which is not against IB's policy. There were no policy violations in Paj's case, and she received no warnings.

What was she going over Dave's head about? That is really the crux. Some DG members were receiving hate mails from Christian extremists. Others were getting similar treatment on some of the forums. When Greenjay appealed to Dave about the hate mail, he refused to do anything about it.

So as usual, Mulch has hit the nail on the head. It's really about the double standard.

The hate mail was really, really nasty and that's where everything began.
The victims asked for help from the leaders and instead of help, or even a humane response, they were kicked while down - and the threat of administrative banning, editing, deletion and general censorship continues. It's affecting the whole community.

I'm asking you to please be considerate of the wishes of this community as we try to heal. We don't need the wounds ripped open with continued censorship and restriction of expression. We need to be allowed to mourn the loss of our friends, cherish the words they wrote to us, and believe that we can continue on with tolerance and freedom. After all, that's what a community is all about.

The pilot analogy is actually a good one. When I fly, I trust the pilot is going to make the right decisions for the flight, based on their skills, and the data available to them about the weather, traffic conditions, etc. I don't expect them to take a vote and see if everybody is okay with circling the airport for 45 minutes, or if they want to try for a different airport and then go with what the majority wants to do.

When the pilot announces that we're going to be delayed for whatever reason, the passengers don't expect to be able to override that decision--free speech has limitations. And the same holds true here. The admin team is trying to guide the entire community and that may mean some unpopular decisions from time to time. We hope you'll give us a chance, and give us the benefit of the doubt that we may be acting on more information than you are aware of, or we're making a decision that we feel is truly in the best interests of everyone, even if it doesn't sit well with everyone.

That doesn't mean you should feel like you have to walk on eggshells, though. You're free to use the site as you always have, following the same rules that have been in place for a number of years.

picante, I'm afraid your information is incorrect. Going over Dave's head might have been the final straw, but it was not the only straw. I can't and won't go into the details of what led up to her removal, out of respect for her privacy, especially when she is not here to speak for herself.

DG members who receive any sort of harassing messages should contact the helpdesk for assistance. We will always investigate the matter fully and take the necessary steps to stop the unwarranted behavior - we have a policy that prohibits offensive and harassing emails (according to commonly accepted definitions of offensive and harassing.)

But if you launch a public protest of our rules (which is what I believe occurred with that issue), especially in the midst of other controversies going on (as there were at that time), please don't be surprised if we can't respond publicly except to remove your posts and try to bring a semblance of order to things.

Terry,
When DG members receive harassing messages, contact the administration for assistance, and then do not receive it, that creates problems. This has actually happened and is not a figment of anyone's imagination. This is part of the double standard problem that so disturbs me and has left the RM forum in something of a shambles.

I understand your reluctance to discuss a former member when she is not here to speak, but do keep in mind many of us know her far better than you do. She is an extremely fair person, and I know how annoying that can be to anyone who practices a double standard, even if unwittingly.

As an example of what I mean, when you and I discussed the double standard with Xdave's good bye thread, you simply explained WHY you wanted to apply a different standard to his thread, not that you were indeed being consistent and even handed with the policy.

The fact that you even consider it defensible to ban someone for not violating the rules shows how deep this double standard goes. Not violating the rules should never ever be "the last straw" resulting in banning, no matter how annoyed you already are with that member. This capricious application of rules is precisely what has devastated the RM community. Whether you realize it or not, the members who have left already gave this administration a chance and watched it get completely bungled.

When you believe you have good reasons for applying different standards to different people among the membership, it operates as a double standard, and as such, is destructive to community. The fact that you hold the power to do so does not automatically make it work well and simply compounds the challenges you face with your job here.

And while the pilot analogy may have some strengths, this is still a gardening website, not an airplane, and I am not putting my life in your hands when I join as a member.

I think I have now said everything I have to say on this subject. If you have any follow up questions you are welcome to Dmail me. I think you mean well, but I apparently have quite failed to make the depth of the problem clear to you. I am truly sorry I cannot figure out how to do so more effectively.

This message was edited Feb 25, 2010 4:37 AM

So, does this mean we all have to remove our shoes and metal objects before we log into DG? Inquiring minds want to know...

I don't know - I'm getting hand scanned.

I vote we TRY to get things back more or less to the way they were BEFORE all this - who's with me? ...now if we could figure out how to get back all our defectors :o(.

We're upset about what has happened. It takes time to work through it. If we can't do that collectively in a discussion, then we'll have a harder time of it.

I'm not against discussing it - in fact I'm definitely in favor of working through it, IF that's what we're doing. Yes, I agree that having Admin. deleting threads is not really fair to us, we're all reasonable adults. Roybird's goodbye thread could have just been ended and left to fade away naturally (like Dave's will), with anyone who was following it still able to see it, just not keep posting on it.

I WOULD like to know if this thread will be allowed to go on, so that, as dparsons says, we can continue to "work through it". I'd like to believe we are not being censored. Terry, can we get a frank answer on that question?

It is different here now, but isn't the main reason for that simply that so many of our friends are missing? What would it take for all those who have left us to voluntarily return? I wasn't suggesting that what has happened here here doesn't matter, I just think we can get past it.

BUT...unless everything is laid out plainly on both sides, we are probably as close to reconciled as we are going to get.

You have my word that this thread remains as long as it remains constructive and respectful.

^ THANK YOU! :-)

Wow, Terry, thanks for the airline pilot metaphor, but I'm not sure that is the most accurate analogy for the sequence of events we are trying to comprehend here. As it happens, I was the recipient of the hate-DMail. And I did complain to the Helpdesk.

Your original post to Dave was inflammatory and designed to elicit a defensive response. What got lost in the shouting is that the member you complained about was approached about their behavior and is no longer a member of this community.

However, my post earlier today stands. As long as this thread remains constructive and respectful it will remain.

Hi Everyone
I clicked on this thread because I thought it was about snakes.

how to avoid them
how to recognize them
how to deal with them
how not to be afraid of them
how not to let them take a bite out of me

You must have some powerful snakes up there in the Rocky Mountains
In the Piedmont of NC - I only have two or three to worry about.

Everyone please take a nice deep breath. B-R-E-A-T-H-E. Now with clear heads we can continue this discussion and hopefully come to a conclusion.
I will write more tomorrow. It's late and I'm sleepy.