I see expanded shale "for hydroponics" with 1" grains
http://www.expandedshale.com/Products/Shale/ExpandedShale.aspx
The Institute talks about mixing expanded rock products to make starting & potting soil, but good luck findin g details like grain size!
http://www.escsi.org/Default.aspx
http://www.escsi.org/uploadedFiles/Technical_Docs/Green_Roof_and_Horticulture/8600.0%20Introducing%20the%20Friendly%20Material.pdf
This map lists producers and maybe distributers in the US.
The pull-down c ontrol brings up more litstings per state than the map has arrows:
http://www.escsi.org/membermap.aspx
Maryland
Carolina Stalite Company
Norlite Corporation
Big River Industries, Inc.
North Carolina
Carolina Stalite Company
Big River Industries, Inc.
New York
Norlite Corporation
DiGeronimo Aggregates LLC(2)
Big River Industries, Inc.
Hydraulic Press Brick Co.
Michigan
DiGeronimo Aggregates LLC(2)
Hydraulic Press Brick Co.
Big River Industries, Inc.
TXI-Texas Industries, Inc.
Washington
Utelite Corporation
TXI-Texas Industries, Inc
Try searching on "light-weight aggregate".
Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention III
I went looking for sieve analyses of different producers of "light aggregate".
There seem to be mostly "too big" and "too fine" products.
Hydrock Medium might be interesting but I could find the size range.
Haydite Greenhouse Blend straddles the right size, but aren't ¼" too big and 1/16 too small?
Haydite Nursery Blend seems close but too coarse, primarily ⅛" to 3/8" particles sizes
Hydrocks Fines 0 - ⅛"
Medium?
Hydrocks Coarse 3/16 - 5/8
Norlite see photo -
Intermediate is 62.5% bigger than 1/4"
Fine is 60% passing 16 mesh.
Haydite Greenhouse Blend is a specialized gradation of Haydite soil conditioner specifically designed for the demands of commercial greenhouse cultivation. Greenhouse blend consist primarily of 1/4"-1/16" particles sizes with nearly all dust and the very fine particles removed.
Haydite Nursery Blend is a specialized gradation of Haydite soil conditioner specifically designed for the demands of commercial nursery cultivation. Nursery blend consist primarily of 3/8"-1/8" particles sizes with nearly all dust and the very fine particles removed.
Al, I'm guessing you've been to all those websites years ago.
I don't mind if I lose half the Turface to screening -- I can find another use for the discarded portion. Al screens using insect screen, and only loses 1/3 of the bag. From what you've determined, Rick, one could screen using an 8 mesh (that is the smallest screen I currently have set up -- 8 wires to the inch, or 1/8th inch screening), and lose half the bag.
Happy, you touched on what I was thinking about while I was reading this (and, by the way, I can't WAIT 'til I get farther along in school to finally learn as much as you guys know about soils, Sheeesh!)... What do you guys do with the "discarded portions"? Where would it be useful?
Thanks, and sorry for the intrusion. =)
I use the fines left over from screening Turface MVP in hypertufa projects, in raised beds, and to add water retention to the 5:1:1 mix for plants I know are going to grow fast & need lots of water (tomatoes,elephant ears, canna ......).
Al
i was thinkng the same thing with left overs from
screening.. :)
Al -- that gives me a great idea -- I was going to use a higher turface ratio for some plants (per you suggestion) that are water-hungry -- like 4:3:2 -- turface:bark:grit. Could I get away with using the discarded turface tiny pieces for this purpose?
One of the things that makes the gritty mix unique and so productive is the fact that it's made to specifically eliminate perched water. If you're going to reintroduce the fine particles that ensure there will be a PWT, you might just as well use something less expensive & easier to make - like the 5:1:1 mix or a peat-based bagged soil. IOW, it doesn't make any sense to go through the effort of making it unless you're going to take advantage of what it can offer. ;-)
Al
Ok, got it. Thanks for saving me! I'll figure it out eventually!
Thank you Al. And, you use this in containers, yes? (for your tomatoes, elephant ears et al).
For veggies, other short term plantings - like mixed display containers, and really fast growers that definitely appreciate a yearly repotting (as opposed to potting up), I use the 5:1:1 mix. For all my houseplants - including succulents, bonsai, and other perennial material (trees & shrubs are perennials, too), I use the gritty mix.
Al
Al: So adding the Turface "extra fines" (for want of a better term) to the 5:1:1 mix is tolerable in the case of plants that are real water guzzlers and for which we'll change out the "soil" frequently, even though doing so may result in a perched water layer, but not in the case of the 1:1:1 "gritty" mix where we want maximum root support and further because we are aiming for long-term stability for that mix. Yes?
I mix discarded "fines" of almost any sort into my outdoor raised beds. They may be fine, but they are coarser than clay particles! (I wouldn't do that with sawdust or wood fibers - they go into a compost heap.
And a bed that sits on top of something that perks at all, has less concern with perched water than a container. I learned that from Al.
Almost any coarse discard can be used as a top-dress mulch.
Cool Rick, thank you! Now all I gotta do is build some raised beds... ;)
>> Now all I gotta do is build some raised beds
If you already have decent soil, concrete paving stones have to be the fastest and easiest wall material.
You can make a 4 foot-wide bed by throwing in 5" of topsoil from a 2 foot band to the right, and a 2 foot band to the left. If you add another 5" of compost, manure, bark, grit or Turface, you have 10" of amended soil on top of whatever was there before, and an extra 5" of drainage into the sunken bands. If you broke up the surface and amended it 5" deep before adding soil from the sides, you might have a 15" root zone.
If your subsoil doesn't drain well, those side-bands ahd better slope or drain somewhere, so you can use them as walkways and still have dry feet.
I've already got very well amended soil in most of my beds, so prepping them wouldn't be necessary, just adding to them would be all I'd need to do. We sell many different sized pavers at work too, reasonably priced + my discount, so that is totally "do-able"! =)
envy envy envy!
If you have a wide range of widths of pavers, you might be able to have a level top on your wall without every digging a paver in several inch, or propping it up on rocks several inches.
The closest I have to that is a wall that's 8" tall at the top of a slope, and 12" tall at the bottom.
... Now ya got me looking at those above-posted photos again.. which one is it? Or is it any of them?
Yeah, all I'd really have to do is wiggle the tip of my flat-nosed shovel into the soil a bit all around the border, just to be able to tuck the pavers in a bit, then do a little tamping with the 3-pound hammer (for level-ness), and I'm all set! =) We've got what we call "bluestone" pavers, in sizes ranging from 12" x 12" up to 24" x 24". Then there's the bricks... ;)
Ooops, I'm derailing the conversation again. < =/
>> up to 24" x 24"
envy envy envy
If you have enough good soil to fill a bed like that: ENVY ENVY ENVY!
I used to think that a raised bed was "just a big container", but Al convinced me otherwise. Unless it sits on solid rock, concrete, or un-pierced plastic , a bed that sits on soil is totally different from a large container with a bottom.
Even raw clay does perk "some". And that changes drainage a lot. Also, I suspect, that even if your outdoor bed starts out soil-less or "sterile", soil organisms soon colonize it.
This outdoor bed would start with about a 1 foot depth of mostly compost, with composted leaves and plain ol' hardwood mulch, and a bit of perlite thrown in for fun. ... Actually, nearly all of my beds would start out that way. There's hardly any old "existing" soil left in there, nearly no clay or rocks anymore, I've worked the heck out of those areas, and my back knows it. ;) There's TONS of fat happy worms in those beds. =)
Can someone start a new thread . first post was 2010 on this page, my post will be# 300. Just asking. Fred
Certainly Fred... (though, might I suggest a Dodge? heehee)... the new thread can be found Here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1299621/ Thank you for asking, sometimes we get a little carried away with posting and don't pay attention to the numbers. =)
Thread continued with additional info here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1300177/
Thanks, everyone!
Al
BUMP
Anyone other than me disappointed to see they renamed the Container Gardening Forum "Specialty Gardening".
Al
They didn't just rename it they consolidated it with other forums. No, you aren't he only one that is disappointed. Check out the forum "DG site changes" and you will see the thread about the forum changes. That's why GG. Bumped this so people could find it.
Wow no one has posted here in a while.. Oops see there is a new one.
This message was edited Jun 28, 2016 7:36 AM
I was wondering if anyone has made Al's gritty mix in the United Kingdom
I can't find turface anywhere. Also was wondering where you got the uncomposted pine bark as I'm only finding bulk bags for industrial use. Perhaps it has a different name in the Uk
Much appreciated
In the US, pine bark might be called any of a number of things. Pine bark mulch, pine bark fines, premium landscape mulch, soil conditioner, clay soil conditioner, southern yellow pine bark, milled pine bark, ........ I'm not sure what it might be called in Europe.
There is a product called "Seramis", that would be a suitable substitute for Turface.
Al
Hello
I read your repost about making a good quality potting soil, & I have some questions if that’s ok. If I make a small batch using your instructions, is this for any type of container plant that I would keep inside? I’ve had such a problem with mixing my own soil & have killed several nice expensive plants, especially the ones that need fast drainage. I’ve lost several desert roses, others, and about to lose my Neptune pitcher plant. I have been mixing a cactus soil, sand, vermiculite, bark, & perlite. What do you think I’m doing wrong? I can’t afford to continue losing my plants, do I use the same recipe for my cacti plants as all others? I’m so confused! I just started growing my 1st cacti, have been gardening for years, I’m afraid to repot into a nice pot, just don’t know what soil mix to use. & I just bought my 1st Staghorn fern, a pot with 3 juvenile plants in it, so afraid I will kill them too, & I want to get them mounted onto cedar boards. I need help so bad!!!
Forest
Might I suggest that instead of being upset trying to mix the perfect soil, why don't you buy a premade one? They have soils premixed for just about every need, even cactus soils. I have used these soils successfully for years. As I got more experienced I did start mixing my own but that was not for years. And even then I would use a premixed 1 as a base sometimes.
https://www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Garden-Center-Landscaping-Supplies-Soils-Potting-Soil/N-5yc1vZcfcr
Thanks zilyzily, appreciate your advice. It’s just that I’ve tried using the premixed soils, especially when it comes to growing plants like desert roses, cactus, bonsai’s, anything that needs fast drainage & cannot tolerate wet roots, I haven’t had good luck & they die. That’s when I started mixing some perlite, sand, vermiculite, etc…, with those premixed soils, and I’m still getting it wrong.
But from this forum, he listed what appears to be a good diy mix, per comments by others in here. Have you tried his recipes?
I guess what I should ask is, which version of the recipe should I be using?:
Small batch:
3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
4 tbsp lime (or gypsum in some cases)
1/4 cup CRF (if preferred)
micro-nutrient powder (or other source of the minors) .
OR
1 part uncomposted pine or fir bark
1 part Turface
1 part crushed granite
1 Tbsp gypsum per gallon of soil
CRF (if desired)
The last one above was listed for indoor plants. So, does that mean any indoor or container plant would benefit from a mixture like that, or does the amount of ingredients change based upon which type of plant you’re mixing it up for?
I need something for bonsai plants, cacti, desert roses, pitcher plant Neptune, & my Staghorn ferns
Thanks
Forest
BTW, I put the majority of my plants outside during the summer, in case this makes a difference. Also, does topography and type of weather play a factor in plant soil mixes? It can get & stay extremely humid where I live, here in Knoxville TN.