Tapla: What size screen do you use for turface? Do you use 3/8" or 1/2", and toss the particles that fall through (i.e, just keep the larger pieces)?
Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention III
I screen Turface over aluminum insect screen & use what doesn't pass. I save the fines to use in raised beds, the 5:1:1 mix for added water retention, or hypertufa projects.
The grower grit or #2 cherrystone comes prescreened, so I screen that over insect screen to remove the dust, and do the same with my bark, which I'm also able to purchase in 1/8-1/4" which is ideal. If you're using pine bark, you can use what passes through a 3/8 or 1/4" screen and what doesn't pass a 1/8" screen.
Al
This message was edited Jul 3, 2012 7:19 PM
Hmm, I try to get rid of anything that passes through a 1/4" screen. But that's only about one year's experience, and last year I did add some commerical mix that added fines, and probably did not do a totally through cut with the 1/4" screen.
I would defer to Al's greater experience and analysis!
But I WISH I had some 3/8" screen, or 3-per-inch mesh.
Using the 1" chicken wire is rare for me, but I was chopping green juniper boughs with a lawn mower before adding them to the compost heap, and did a quick cut to pull out what needed the most extra chopping.
Al,
I'm thrilled to tell you that your advice has really paid off! I harvested my shallots yesterday, and I can't believe the results!
Last April I planted 6 cloves each in 4 pots in the 5 : 1 : 1 mix in 14 " diameter clay pots. I set them on a narrow strip of garden that happened to be the exact width as the bottom of the pots, which turned out to be the perfect spot.
The 24 cloves (about 10 oz.) of shallots yielded 139 cloves and 3.75 pounds of shallots!
Here are some pictures! Most of the bulbs were a good size...much bigger than what I planted.
Between the better potting medium and now understanding perched water, I have finally had success with shallots!
Thank you, Al!
This message was edited Jul 25, 2012 7:11 AM
Those are some fine looking shallots - WAY TO GO!
What I get for the time I spend here is the thrill that comes from learning that I might have made a difference in someone's growing experience. That's really the only reason I'm here. In a way, it's a selfish thing because I get so much satisfaction from knowing you advanced your skillset and managed to squeeze some additional reward from your growing experience; so thank YOU for letting us know of your success - and another big thing, for sharing your enthusiasm.
Al
Well you should see my tomatoes!
I did do a lot of things differently this year, including using the 5 : 1 : 1 mix. I also used mycorrihzae at several points, and Azomite for the micro-nutrients, plus the Foliage-Pro and some seaweed. They have also been treated regularly with Daconil and Actinovate, and I even have used aspirin to boost their immunity.
They are just now getting ripe, but each plant has more than 20 tomatoes on it. I've never had such productivity before. Of course, the good weather in June helped a lot. Oh, and I'm using an electric toothbrush to help pollination.
One last thing I noticed... I can see all kinds of roots even at the surface of the pots. Not sure if that is from the medium or the mycorrihzae? Probably both!
Electric toothbrush???
Oh, yes, the electric toothbrush! I learned about that on the Tomatoville forum. Touch the back of the open blossom with the back of the running toothbrush. Occasionally you will see the blossom expel pollen, but it's not necessary to work.
I think it has increased fruit set a lot!
This message was edited Jul 25, 2012 3:48 PM
I admit I'm a little late here, but I just had to say, Koshi, WOW, those pictures of your shallots sure has made me hungry! Congratulations on your success!! < =D
Tapla, i just joined DG and started with these three threads of yours. Thank you for all the time and information that is available. Just one problem though, could you write one post for those who live in the jungle with only the materials provided by nature. Some of your ingredients are just not available here and as to fertilisers we only have commercial grade Urea, Ammonium Nitrate, DAP diammonium phosphate, NPK, etc. Now, how to play around with these?
Regards.
KAMasud, welcome, how nice to see you!! Al's knowledge of soil is unsurpassed, and not only does he "know" (everything), but he also knows how to "teach" really well, too. He's a rare breed! =)
Anyway, just wanted to welcome you, and look forward to seeing you around more.
I'll stop interrupting the flow of the thread now... We now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcasting... ;)
Scheesch, after a lead-in like that, I have to say that I don't know what I can do to help with soils unless Kamasud tells me what he has available that might fit the bill as replacements for what we take for granted in the states. I think what's most important, is gaining an understanding of how soils work and the concept of making well-aerated, fast draining soils work for you, instead of having to fight them tooth and nail every step of the way. The concept is so much more important than any recipe I might provide.
Best luck.
Al
Al, the basics of the how and the why/how things work, and work together, are the crucial foundation to figuring out what one can use the its fullest potential... or, so I believe. You seem to have the most in-depth understanding and knowledge of all this of any person I have ever 'spoken with' about this, and I talk to everyone I can get my hands on about soils. But, while (as the saying goes) some people 'know' and some people 'teach', you have a very rare gift of both; you explain things in such a comprehensive fashion that even a Pollack like me can understand it clearly, and the fact that you generously come in here to the forums and share your knowledge in such a gentlemanly manner is more appreciated than you will ever know. God bless you. =)
While I don't post much in this area, it is in my "top 3" favourite threads to read in here, to just read and learn, and walk away feeling smarter! =) And yes, sometimes my BDH will come along and see me reading about "dirt" and tell me I'm slightly odd. ;) LOL!
Well, that was an exceptionally kind compliment. Thank you!
You don't become an accomplished container gardener by luck or accident. Someone brand new to container culture can become accomplished in a VERY short time if someone is willing to provide the basic framework. Once growers acquire the knowledge, it's time to let it bear fruit through its practical application, and it doesn't take long.
I'm limited in what I can say without it sounding boastful; at least I think I am. I'm not good at determining how I come off to others in my day to day posting. 10 years ago, I wouldn't have allowed myself to be as direct about how important soils are in determining a grower's ability to consistently produce attractive and productive plants. Light is important, but a grower can change the light by moving the pot, leaving your soil as undoubtedly the single most important consideration for your conventional container plantings. Yet, outside of those who belong to a forum site or MAYBE a garden-related club, soils are rarely the topic of conversation. That's something akin to your doctors ignoring anything to do with your heart.
This is the part that sounds boastful, but I think it's something that should be said, no matter if someone does happen to think it a boast. I've taken hundreds, maybe thousands, of new and struggling growers under my wing, and taught them exactly what I'm sharing here, + some information about nutritional supplementation. Never, has anyone regretted it, that I know of. Every person was very excited about their new found ability to grow plants very notably better than they were formerly able, and better than a high % of other growers with years and years more experience than the fledglings. Growers that have no knowledge of the concept outlined in the OP are at a distinct disadvantage - there is little question about that. I'm not saying that because I wrote it, I'm saying it because the thousands of growers I've had intercourse with prove it to be true beyond any question.
For the most part, though, they did all the work. I would primarily forward links to various threads I wrote that explained things. All I did on those threads was assemble some knowledge from various sources, including my own experience, that I thought important - trying to put it in a form that could be understood by everyone. I'll take credit for that small part, but essentially they did all the work, their enthusiasm and open minds being their greatest assets when it came to learning and ensuring their progress.
I've been around long enough to have learned that the value of experience varies from less than worthless to critically important. You might ask, "How can the value of experience ever be less than worthless?" It can, when it's an impediment to progress. As an example, I'm certified as a CCW (carry concealed weapon) instructor, as well as being certified to teach several other disciplines. In many cases, students arrive thinking they know much more than they do (most often the young men), and with a lot of baggage - translated, that means bad habits they acquired as a result of their 'experience'. People are often reluctant to change anything they're doing when someone suggests there might be a better way. That stubbornness comes from an inability to admit to themselves that anything about their habits could possibly inferior. Stubbornness doesn't get you any farther in your growing abilities than it does in a firearms discipline class, the difference being clinging to old, less than desirable habits in a firearms class isn't an option. Here, it's completely optional & no one cares if you do or don't avail yourself of the information, but that doesn't change the potential effect it could have on the growing experience. Those that understand the concept will always be able to use it to enrich the growing experience. Those that aren't aware of the concept, don't understand it, or ignore it altogether, might not see any change in their growing experience (which in itself is a bad thing), but the hit comes in the form of lost potential - what could have been if the concept was put to work for the grower, instead of it being ignored so it works against the grower.
OK - end of the line for my musings. Thanks again, Speedie.
Al
What we know can be measured what we don't know can"t be measured which way does the scale tip
before I read this awesome post I did not know that there are 6 teaspoons per ounce
treatment at 2 teaspoons per ounce of 3% H peroxide or 16 ounces treats 48 gal of rain water helps eliminates the misquito population and helps our plants
I read the MRI study on plant roots what we know is obivious
why we grow a plant to this point beautiful foliage strong root system so we tear it apart and repot as usual well try this dont tear it up take a larger pot put pearlite or beanbag beans (Walmart has a 100 Litre bag for 11.95) in the bottom to bring the plant to proper height fill in around the sides to 1 inch below the lip dirt on top to keep the beans from floating away the plant has not been disturbed just relocated in its former healthy and vibrant state drainage is good more oxygen is accessable to the roots. I have implemented this with a few plants and will take pictures 1 day 1week each month there after It makes sense to me may be you would also try it.
Relief to know I will never know how much I don't know
Bill
This message was edited Aug 6, 2012 11:17 AM
Sorry tapla, a bit tardy in responding. Got some health issues and some times life does get to much, at that point i leave the forums alone. You never know what you may write and what it turns out in the end. That is what i was eluding to at the welcome mat.
I read everything you wrote about soils and i am impressed. Emphatic attitude is required when dealing with plants and that ingredient you have in abundance in order to get down to the micro level to find out what's ailing plants.
What ingredients are available:- Well if you go back in time about 100 yrs and the ingredients available to you then, are what we have now. I am a bit confused, organic manure (any type), sharp river sand, these kind of things which a gardener always has in his repertory.
Chemical fertilisers. HuuuM! I am afraid commercial grade only. Urea, in abundance. NPK 17/17/17. DAP 3/1/0. Ammonium Nitrate (hate it for its raw fuel oil smell, reminds me when i was quarrying for marble, cheap explosive ). GROW MORE is available at garden centres. Peat and Coir, abundant.
Any way what you wrote and what i have read (found) so far illustrates so well what is going on at the micro level in the soil, i get a picture and knowledge of what to do.
Regards.
Hi Al,
Just wanted to let you know that I'm still picking tomatoes (a couple dozen today), and while the plants are starting to look a bit stressed, they have lasted far longer than I've ever been able to grow them. Usually by late July or early August they would succumb to some form of blight. Today they look fabulous, and are still blooming!
I threw a lot at them this year. Your 5:1:1 mix, mycho, Actinovate, Daconil, seaweed extract and even aspirin. I'm really interested in looking at the roots once these guys are done, which may be a while. In each tomato container, I have got so many fine roots at the surface that I can't really stick my finger in to see if they need water. It's like a thick mat of fine roots! I usually water daily...sometimes they get droopy before I get out there.
My only problem I really had was that the plants overgrew the 6' cages and then became unstable in wind. In past years my DH would bungee them together, but that led to poor air circulation and disease. This year we didn't connect them so closely. He used one of his 65# bar bells to bungee the lead plants to and then we interconnected them, while still keeping as much space between them as possible.
Anyway, this led him to ask, "would you like to use this strip of grass next to the patio for a raised bed instead?"
So that got me to thinking about what medium I should put in it. It will be on the ground. But I have been so happy with the 5:1:1 results, I was thinking about using it in there.
What do you think?
I'd go with something heavier than the 5:1:1 mix, so you can keep up with the water demands. Remember, the earth is going to act like a wick and remove all the perched water, so a soil as porous as the 5:1:1 mix will dry quite quickly. 50-60% topsoil, then some pine bark fines and MI peat (reed/sedge peat) should make a good soil. I helped Gymgirl figure out a raised bed soil, but I don't remember what we came up with or how she did - haven't talked to her since spring. Maybe she'll see this and add her thoughts and observations to the conversation - I'm curious myself.
This is what's in my raised beds (see picture). It's a combination of PBFs, reed/sedge peat, sand, and Turface. At first, there was a lot of shrinkage, due to the high % of OM, but as I added the used soil from my bonsai pots, a larger mineral fraction and less shrinkage was the result. If I was building a raised bed today, I think I'd use just what I suggested to you, + some Micromax or other source of insoluble micronutrients.
Al
I wish I would have seen this site before I repotted my two peace lillies. I definitely did not use the right soil and my older PL is looking pitiful. Hopefully I can get it to last through the winter before I buy the items for your basic mix.
Tapla, I've been mulling about grit. The Gran-i-Grit "developer" grit is awfully small -- just 3/16" - 5/16" (see http://www.ncgranite.com/uploadimages/listings/gritmailer.pdf). I wonder if I'd do better with turkey grit, which is 5/16" -7/16".
You wrote earlier: "I use #2 cherrystone, which tends to run a little larger than grower size in the Gran-I-Grit. I'd say it's about 3/32 - 3/16. [So he really means the larger size.] You can use larger, but here's the deal. When you use disparate sizes in your material, it has more of a tendency to separate, and the soil takes on the characteristics of the two ingredients that are closest in size. IOW you can use large grit, but if you bark is also large, the soil takes on (primarily) the characteristics of the bark and grit."
I am sifting the pine bark through 1/8" and 1/3" sifters (just keeping the stuff that goes through the 1/3" sifter and doesn't go through the 1/8" sifter) but the developer size grit pours through our 1/8" hardware cloth.
Thoughts?
This message was edited Feb 12, 2013 2:44 PM
One other question. I read: "You'll need to be mindful of rain, because if you leave your gritty mixed plants out, you can have a washout problem." I was planning on using the gritty mix for outdoor containers. What should I do to avoid erosion?
Actually, you want grower size - which comes prescreened 3/32-3/16". The idea is to keep the particles JUST above the threshold where perched water starts to accumulate, which is at .090 -.100. The decimal equivalent of 3/32 is .094. We like the bark a little larger (1/8-1/4) to allow for some breakdown over the life of the soil.
Developer grit is 3/16-5/16. With the holes in 1/8" mesh being about 2/16", it's not possible for it to pass through 1/8" mesh in any volume. Are you sure you don't mean 'starter grit'? I use that occasionally, but not often at all. 1 bag of the starter grit lasts several years, and I go through about 10-12 bags of #2 cherrystone or starter grit each year.
I'm not sure who posted the warning about erosion, but it's not a concern. If you turn a narrow hose spray under high pressure on the soil, you can wash it away, but I'd say it's pretty near impossible for even the hardest rain to wash away the soil, unless it's heaped up higher than the sides of the pot. If you keep the soil line at least 1/4" below the pot rim, it will be perfectly fine - you won't lose any soil. Use a water break (this is the BEST - http://www.californiabonsai.com/product-category/watering-tools/ ) when you water & it will never be an issue.
Al
Do I have the numbers right? (see image)
Perching starts when the grains get down to around 0.090 - 0.100 inches (2.286 mm to 2.54 mm) diameter.
3/32" is 0.094" is 2.4 mm.
Is it true that, if the mix has even 10-15% by volume smaller grains, perching can be expected even if 85% of the mix (by volume) is larger than 3 mm (0.118")?
I'm picturing 1 small grain lodging between many or most of the big grains, making the pore size linear dimension much less than half what it was, hence being very prone to perch water.
Would a rule of thumb be something like "if you have any small grains, the large grains should outnumber them by 2-3 to 1 if you want to decrease the amount of perched water significantly "?
In other words, I should KEEP 1/2 or 2/3 of all voids FREE of smaller grains.
Don't hesitate to say "it doesn't work like that at all". You won't hurt my feelings.
I'm starting to think that I can EITHER avoid perched water, OR have any upward wicking of water, but not both with the same mix.
I might change my goal to "maintain enough open air channels all the way to the bottom of a cell, and avoid excessive water retention near the top of a cell (to prevent damping-off).
I've been convinced of the value of bottom-watering seed-starting cells like inserts and propagation trays. But that requires some wicking. I was trying to provide enough wicking and sufficiently little perched water that roots would thrive all the way to the bottom of a 2" deep c ell.
Someone said:
>> "You'll need to be mindful of rain, because if you leave your gritty mixed plants out,
>> you can have a washout problem."
Speculating, maybe this person was concerned that some finer component in his mix, if any, would wash right out and away from the coarse phase.
Tapla: Ah - I misunderstood -- I thought the point was to have all the components the same size. That is very helpful. We have both starter and developer grit -- I'll check tomorrow. Maybe the screen isn't 1/8" as I had thought.
What size should the Turface be screened to?
Re erosion, I'm wondering if I need to make the holes in the bottom of the pots smaller than I might otherwise. (In the past I would cover the holes with a layer of newspaper which seemed to work ok to hold the dirt in until the soil stabilized, but I'm sure that is not appropriate in the new world of Tapla.)
I screen the Turface over an aluminum insect screen & use what doesn't pass. I cover the holes in my pots/containers with a piece of fiberglass window screen or a piece of plastic canvas (hobby shops) made for needlepoint projects.
Al
Al -- so the same treatment for the turface and starter-size grit? Both should be screened over insect screen only?
I've heard the turface can be irregular in size -- the pieces in one batch larger than in another batch. Is it ok not to worry about that, and just screen to get the dust out?
And I just focused on the fact that insect screening is finer that 1/8 hardware cloth -- Wikipedia says "The fineness of a screen mesh is measured in wires per inch on the warp (length) and the weft or filler (width). An 18×14 mesh has become standard [for insect screening]; 16×16 was formerly common and other common sizes are 18×18 and 20×20."
I would have thought that insect screening is too flexible to use to sift turface or grit -- that it would sag under the weight?
From a technical perspective, Turface MVP is just a little too small to be perfect in the gritty mix, but it's as close to perfect as I've found. If you screen the fines out through insect screen, the remainder isn't small enough that it clogs the air pores between the larger ingredients, which make up 2/3 of the mix. Basically, we make a little compromise in using Turface a little smaller than perfect so we get more usable product from a bag.
Here's how I screen:
Al
Ok, that's excellent. I've made up screens like yours (actually, my dad used to screen compost so I have some 60-year old screens!). I was worried that insect screen wouldn't be sturdy enough, but I'll try to find some metal insect screening instead of the soft fiberglass stuff that is sometimes used.
I found the sieve analysis of Turface on their website.
(I've rounded some tenths of %s).
Typical sieve analysis of Turface MVP
http://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/Turface%20mvp%20sheet%205_7_12.pdf
6 mesh - - 15 %
8 mesh - - 32 %
12 mesh - - 19 %
20 mesh - - 31 %
30 mesh - - 3 %
40 mesh - - 0.5 %
pan - - - - - - 0.1%
The second column must be "% retained by that screen" - I guess by weight, not volume or grain count.
If the "sieve size link" is relevant, the third, 4th and 5th columns below might be typical particle diameters, or minimum dimensions.
Rick: So the turface folks must realize how much we gardeners like their stuff, because I can't believe that sports-field-maintainers would give a hoot!
What does 40 mesh, 30 mesh, etc. mean? 40 to the inch? That's fascinating and tantalizing information, but obscure!
>> What does 40 mesh, 30 mesh, etc. mean? 40 to the inch?
That's how I've always seen it in hardware catalogs. The link that I got those "nominal sizes" for called the sieves "#30" and "#40", but that MUST mean the same thing.
Yet the nominal openings depend a lot on the thickness of the wire and how you weave it and weld or glavanize it! Or maybe these "standard sieves" are holes drilled in sheet metal.
>> I can't believe that sports-field-maintainers would give a hoot!
I don't know, the fact sheet went into chemical composition , pH, and lots more. I think THIS company focuses on baseball fields and sports turf, but other companies selling expanded shale/clay target shopping mall flower planters and "green roofs".
Rick: Is there such a thing as screen with 40 wires to the inch? I don't see how there'd be any room for anything to fall through under those circumstances, even if the wires are really tiny! Maybe for straining consomme?
>> Is there such a thing as screen with 40 wires to the inch?
Oh, yeah! Che4ck out "bolting cloth", which I think they use for flour.
>> I don't see how there'd be any room for anything to fall through under those circumstances, even if the wires are really tiny!
That is also what I THOUGHT when I bought some 30 mesh and 60 mesh. But OMG, there was some seed, I think poppy or maybe petunia that went THROUGH 60 mesh!.
Usually, 8 or 10 mesh will pull out pods and twigs, and 16-24 mesh will pass most seeds.
But small seeds do need 30 mesh or finer! The nice thing is that not much chaff passes a 30 mesh sc reen!
wire cloth
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMCTLG=00&PMPAGE=1737
That link lists MANY kinds of wire cloth, different meshes, different wire thinkn ess, materials, weave, you name it. Most listings also mention the opening size.
MSC sells an 80 mesh bolting cloth with openings of 0.0088"
Also a 200 mesh product with wire diam of 0.0021, and openings of 0.0029 " (2.9 mills).
We shouldn't be TOO surprised. Biologists have Millipore filters to remove bacteria (around 1 micron = 1/1,000 mm = 0.00004 inch or 0.04 mils). Not using wire mesh!
Katlien has a great method for making seed sieves:
http://davesgarden.com/community/blogs/t/Katlian/10997/
Makes sense. I was just envisioning the rolls of hardware cloth at our local hardware store, and that doesn't get very fine at all. I don't think of Turface as including such fine stuff.
I think it analyzed at 3.6% passing through 20 mesh.
So 3.6 % smaller than 1/32" or 0.84 mm.
I think. It depends on whether the %s are "% retained by" or "% passing through".
And it matters a lot whether that is by weight or by # of grains. It almost has to be by weight, because counting grains would be expensive, even with electronics !
The dust & small stuff might even come from bigger grains rubbing against each other during bagging and transport. They are supposed to be durable, but they're also porous and must have bits near the surface that c an break off.
It must be by weight.
Since "pan" is an option, I assume these are what doesn't pass through:
6 mesh - - 15 %
8 mesh - - 32 %
12 mesh - - 19 %
20 mesh - - 31 %
30 mesh - - 3 %
40 mesh - - 0.5 %
pan - - - - - - 0.1%
So 0.1% is what passes through 40 mesh
0.5% is caught by 40 mesh, but not by 30 mesh
3% is caught by 30 mesh, but not by 20 mesh.
And so on.
Only 15% is bigger than 6 mesh -- so it is all pretty small. I thought we'd have been hoping for 4 mesh or so.
From what Al says:
>> The idea is to keep the particles JUST above the threshold where perched water starts to accumulate, which is at .090 -.100. The decimal equivalent of 3/32 is .094.
Conveniently, 8 mesh or "#8 sieve" is supposed to translate into nominal openings of 0.094" = 3/16" = 2.38 mm.
So 32% + 15% = 47% are larger than that. I agree with you, it sounds like 53% of the bag is somewhat smaller than ideal, if the only purpose of the Turface is to be bigger than "perch size".
If window screening is 16 mesh, and that will pass much of what the #20 sieve held back, perhaps window screening can remove the smallest 10-20% of the bag.
Assuming all that, perhaps "window-screened Turface" contains only 33% to 43% stuff that smaller than 0.094". However, I think now I'm confuddling what is what percent of WHAT.
I'll say may accurately: "de-dusting the bag with 12 or 16 mesh will get rid of some of the fines".
It looks like "MVP" is Turface's largest grain size. Buying the bag is easier than making our own!