A rather small planting:
Al
Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention III
Seen here with its dad:
Al
A few cacti in a dish. Shallow containers are harder to grow in:
Al
Aeonium in terra cotta pot:
Al
Cool.
I'm sorry - I had several windows open & thought I was posting the above pics to another thread - they really have nothing to do with container soils, other than the fact that anything in a container is in the gritty mix.
Al
Oh you pulled a Dawn, that is something I would do. I love them none the less.
Here's the thread, in case any one's interested:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1126494/
It's mostly about soils.
Al
Hi Al, I have almost wore out a pair of reading glasses following your posts (:0), "BUT I SURE HAVE LEARNT A LOT"
I have lots of pine trees in my yard, and was wondering if I crushed up the bark that is loose and some that the squirrels tear of while climbing
up and down the trees, wil that be ok to use in EB container mix?
Regards Tinki
Mass is an important consideration in determining how fast something breaks down. We want something that has enough large pieces that it will not break down before roots have almost completely filled the container/soil mass. If the pieces fit the bill based on size, they might work, but the outer layers of pine bark have already been partially broken down. The bark we buy is usually a byproduct of some phase of the lumbering industry and includes the inner bark that has never been exposed to weather & sunlight, so it's much more stable than the outer flakes.
Still, I've never been asked this question, so I'm answering based on my own reasoning. There's nothing to stop you from experimenting, if you have a sufficient volume, and reporting back to us. ;o)
Al
Thanks Tapla, I think after checking my bark I will buy some(:o)
My problem is, I can only find pine bark mulch that does not say fines at lowes.
I guess I will call h/d and see if they have fines.
Regards Tinki
'Fines' is an adjective, so if you only look for something with 'fines' on the bag, you might by-pass a lot of good material before you find what you need. I use the word 'fines' so you don't get big nuggets. If you know what Sugar-Pops cereal is, I'd say you want bark that has particles from dust size to not much larger than Sugar Pops for the 5:1:1 mix. For the gritty mix, use screened bark from 1/8-3/8 or so in size.
The bark at 3,6,9 o'clock are good for the 5:1:1 mix .... or for the gritty mix if you screen it. What I use for the gritty mix is the pre-screened white fir bark at 12.
Al
Thanks Tapla, so you recomend your 5.1.1. mix for the EB system?
I have read so many posts, I am slightly confused, as I can't retain all I have read (:o(
I would like to thank you for all the time and effort you put into these forums. You should be made an honory member.
Regards Tinki
It's too well-aerated to be used in SWCs @ the 5:1:1 ratio because it won't wick well enough. You'll need to use something like 5:3:1, bark:peat:perlite .... maybe even 5:4:1 if the bark is large.
Thank you for the kindness, but I think I'm probably a little too straight forward to be trusted with such an honor. ;o)
Take care, Tinki.
Al
Thanks again Al,i thought you used the SWC s.
I doubt anyone in these forums would not trust you with that honor(:o).
Regards Tinki
Yes you are Al but quite helpful.
I'm still lagging along in Houston, trying to find pine bark fines...
Has anyone located a source in Houston?
Linda/GG...
It's sold as "soil conditioner" at Lowe's, and there are five stores in the Houston area. I hope this helps, cus I LOVE those pine fines!
http://www.lowes.com/pd_97675-66882-97675_0__?newSearch=true&catalogId=10051&productId=3048087&Ntt=soil+conditioner&N=0&langId=-1&y=0&x=0&storeId=10151&ddkey=http:SearchCatalog
Shoe
Please DO check, Linda, but product varies widely by region. Because of shipping costs, the TX market will likely be served by a different and nearer supplier. I still have my fingers crossed for you, but it's unlikely you'll find the same product @ a TX Lowe's as in NC. :-(
Al
Thanks, Shoe.
I'm zeroing in by describing it as being no larger than about the size of Sugar Corn Pops cereal. Once I say that, everyone owns up to whether they have it or not. So far the one consensus I'm getting from the local soil companies is that it's very hard to come by, because of how much is lost during grinding it down to that sIze. Seems 5-7 cu ft. grinds down to only 2 cu ft. They lose a lot of product.
Al, I remain hopeful of finding something close!
Linda
Lol (not @ you) - they don't lose it, they just get to sell you less air because the particles are finer. ;o)
Al
I am having good luck with moisture staying in this mix, here in the desert and not having to worry about the wicking, though I have a few wicks in some pots with the mix. I don't remember why though.
"the TX market will likely be served by a different and nearer supplier. I still have my fingers crossed for you, but it's unlikely you'll find the same product @ a TX Lowe's as in NC. "
Yep, that's exactly what I thought, too, Al. I did a search for Texas Lowe's, hoping I could find a local source. The link I gave came from a Lowe's in Baytown, Tex (outside Houston). I sure hope they really have in the store what they showed on their website. It seems like very few pine products are available in parts of the west and mid-west, doesn't it?
Linda, if you click the link I gave then click on "check quantity" it'll give you an inventory on that product for several Lowe's stores around Houston. Hopefully you'll find what you are looking for.
Shoe.
My experience with shopping the Lowe's website -- it showed an inventory of Evergreen soil conditioner so I made the trip only to be told at the store that they had not had that product in quite awhile and were offering a "landscape mix" in place of, which turned out to be too much other stuff with the pine bark. Landscapers Pride makes a soil conditioner that's the best I've found so far, but I've not had great success in locating, other than just happening upon it as I've shopped various smaller plant places.
sheesh...wish I could send ya'll Texans a pallet-load of pine fines. Once you try it you'll be hooked on it. (Al, you should've bought stock in it, all the folks you've gotten addicted to using it you might be rich! *grin)
Shoe
Shoe,
Al IS rich! With all the friends he's made here in Dave's garden, and the associations and affiliations, and the empassioned and heated soil debates, and being king of the compost heap, and....
Shoot... Who am I trying to kid?
He'd rather have the MONEY! ^^_^^
Tx_gardener,
Southwest Fertilizer here on Bissonet carries Landscaper's Pride. LOTS of it! All the time!
But, I took this picture of some of it when I went on a "Fines" and destroy mission. On the TPF rating scale (Tapla Pine Fines), I believe it got maybe 2 outta 5 stars because it has a high sapwood content and not enough bark...
Here's another view, same pile.
This has become a mission it seems.
Hey Shoe, when I lived in the Carolinas I had no idea how much I would appreciate having a source for Nature's Helper and/or other pine products, which I recall being better than what I'm finding now...
Gymgirl, that looks nothing like the Landscapers Pride Soil Conditioner I bought. Yours looks more like the LP bark mulch I use around flower beds.
Living Earth (www.livingearth.net) has a place near the LA state line that sells "fresh pine regrind" which sounds perfect, but it's bulk only, delivered only (if I recall correctly). I plan to call them for details and also to see if they sell to customers who resell. Anyway, it keeps me busy trying to track down all this stuff!!!
Tx_g,
I think you're right about it being the pine mulch. I'll check again to see if they carry the Soil Conditioner, and then post pics for the TPF rating.
Soon as you find some REAL, Sugar Corn Pop-size pine bark fines close to me, HOLLER!
Thanks!
This message was edited Sep 15, 2010 8:17 AM
>> , but product varies widely by region.
I agree. None of what I found looked piney. When I bulled past the young clerks who knew nothing, and got the gray-haired clerk who was knowledgable, the immediate answer was "Probably not. Not much pine around here, mostly fir."
I guess non-Balsam fir might be OK, but there's no way to know.
I was surprised to find so much sapwood, and such big chunks and fine dust in the same bag. Oh, well, if it were graded to size, it would be three times as expensive.
By the way - have many of you gotten pitying looks and "To GROW things in?!? You know you need SOIL to grow things!"
I tried several repetitions of things like "almost hydroponics" and "kind of a soil-less mix" ... then they either got it or decided to humor me. One lady, after scorning the idea, admitted that NURSERIES sometimesw did it because it was lighter to ship, BUT!" (I never found out what the "but" was.
I guess anything different is suspect. Mulch should only be used to mulch, only soil should be used for growing. Kind of binary logic.
But I really scored big in a local Home Depot: many free 3.5" square pots and lots of 5" round pots, and a STACK of web trays! (chortling with glee)
Corey
I was promised Evergreen Soil Conditioner at Lowe's and was presented with Happi Gardener pine bark mulch. Again, chunky and some slices but doesn't look like sapwood. The dime-size slices would need to be sifted out and I don't know how much would be lost. But, the larger pieces could be run through a wood chipper? for less loss.
Here's what I found in the Happi bag...
Here's the whole handful I pulled out.
Gymgirl, I finally found my bag of Hapi-Gro called 'landscaper mix' (also from Lowe's) -- "100% organic, bark from hardwood trees" -- brags on moisture retention and mulching usage. I took a small sample from the top of the bag (has some perlite in it). Out of two full 8.5 oz. cups, I got just less than one cup that didn't sift thru 1/4 and 1/8 and the other cup + sifted thru the 1/8 and aluminum insect screen. Everything I sifted went thru 1/2. Granted, I didn't go very deep in the bag, but I didn't encounter any of the large pieces like in your second pic.
FWIW - hardwood bark isn't appropriate as a significant fraction of container media.
Al
Tapla and Tx_gardener,
Bottom line it for me. If I sift the Happi-Gro through a 1/2" mesh, everything that falls through can be used in the 5:1:1 recipe, or do I need a small mesh sifter?
I'm just about at the end of my quest for pine bark fines in Houston, and need to move forward...
These guys sell it. I'm sure shipping would cost more than the fines themselves, but....
http://www.mortonproducts.com/page.cfm/1481
And, my apologies if this has already been asked, but: at the feed stores they sell pine shavings. I use bales and bales of them for my chickens. Any ideas about how to make them work in the mix?
Susan
This message was edited Oct 6, 2010 7:51 AM
Thanks Land...
Sorry, Linda. I know you've really worked hard at finding the bark, so I spent some time on the phone, calling around on your behalf, and discovered that Timber Solutions on Highway 242 near 45 in Conroe has double grind pine bark in bulk for $24/yd. They said it's on sale right now; and I think I remember you mentioning the availability of a trailer, so this sounds like it could be the ticket.
Al