Al, further up in this thread I believe you said you use higher mineral content soils (griity mix?) for longer term plantings including houseplants. Am I correct? And if so, would the gritty mix be OK even for begonias for example?
I am also planning to do a grapefruit the same as the ficus we were discussing above.
I guess I'm asking is there anything the gritty mix isn't good for?
Trees in Containers - a Discussion
I grow everything I expect to be in the same soil for more than 1 growth cycle in the gritty mix. I've grown geraniums, hostas, Impatiens, begonias, snapdragons, and dozens of other perennials, + all my houseplants - including cacti & succulents, in the gritty mix with excellent results. I've never tried growing a plant that didn't respond very favorably to it.
Al
Al,
Awhile ago you asked me to post a picture of my fir bark. Here it is, finally. The idea was to suggest a mix that would avoid use of perlite.
I also want to clarify, when you say "gritty mix" do you mean specifically your 1:1:1 woody mix, or do you mean the 5:1:1 mix, or does that term encompass both your mixes?
Thanks
Actually, the people who started using these mixes named them - I didn't have any say in the matter. ;o) They just started calling the 1:1:1 mix of bark:Turface:grit the gritty mix because ...... well, because it's very gritty. Someone started calling the mix with pine bark:peat:perlite the 5:1:1 mix, and it stuck.
The bark looks very good for mixes like the gritty mix - too coarse to be ideal for the 5:1:1 mix. For the 5:1:1 mix, you want something that looks like this (@ 3,6,or 9).
Al
Ok, thanks. I'm thinking I'll just use the gritty mix for everything that will be in pots for the long haul. Easier than fussing with separate mixes.
Alas, every time I think I understand, something else pops up.
Ok, the bark fines in the gritty mix need to be larger than the fines in the 5-1-1 mix?
What size? What is one "step" up from the 1/4-1/16th inch size you use for the 5-1-1?
Ideal for the gritty mix is bark screened 1/8-1/4". I buy fir bark, prescreened, in 3 cu ft bags for $17, or $15 if I buy 20 bags at a time. See a picture at the top of the photo above.
For the 5:1:1 mix, I use bark that is dust to 3/8" - no screening. See picture at 3,6,9 - the 5:1:1 mix (dry) is in the middle of the picture.
Al
Al, I will have to use the same pine bark fines in both mixes. Success or failure?
I know you must get tired of my relentless questions. Sorry.
I don't know - what you're using. For the gritty mix, they should be screened, or there is little reason to use it. Use whatever passes through 1/2" screen in the 5:1:1 mix, and use what passes through 1/4" mesh but doesn't go through 1/8" in the gritty mix.
Al
Just finely chopped pine bark. Ok, I'll get the screens.
Al, I've been iffy about trying Episcia in the 5:1:1 mix, but I'm potting up some extra stolons in it this morning. They like evenly moist, but not soggy soil, normally I grow them in Pro Mix and wick the pots. Is there any point in wicking this mix? I am on the fence about whether wicking plants works because it provides drainage, or more constant moisture. The picture of the African violet growing so well was well-timed, growing conditions for Episcias and AV's are similar.
FWIW, I have killed several tropical hibiscus in the past, and I now have two doing very well in the 5:1:1 mix, even though it's been colder here than they'd prefer.
Celene, how is the cold affecting the hibiscus. Do you bring them outside early? or what?
They don't grow as quickly as they would in warmth...
Celene - are you wicking to supply water or to drain water from an otherwise soggy soil? The 5:1:1 mix does hold some perched water, but no where near as much as peat/compost-based soils. Wicking (to drain the soil of excess water) would be helpful when plantings are immature and the roots haven't fully colonized the soil mass, but it also promotes a build-up on salts in the soil, so I avoid using it for extended periods to SUPPLY water to my plants.
For me, the key to tropical hibiscus in containers has been A) be sure they don't get too root-bound. They usually need potting-up or better yet - a root-pruning when you bring them home, or before they get going in the spring B) Never use a high P fertilizer - they do not like P. I use 24-8-16 or 9-3-6 at doses just high enough to keep foliage green, and supplement the K with Pro-TeKt 0-0-3. You could also just include a little potash in the soil when you pot them. I have 4 or 5 right now that are doing very well.
Al
Normally, episcias and other gesneriads are wicked to maintain even soil moisture, without sogginess.
For purposes of my 5:1:1 vs. Promix comparison, should I just water normally, and not wick the pots? I will be wicking the Promix pots.
The hibiscus came to me superduperincredibly root bound. They were about 24" high and in a quart pot, and I trimmed most of the matted root mass when I repotted them into glazed ceramic in May. I think you mentioned to me in another discussion about the P in fertilizer, and I got the Stokes hibiscus fertilizer, which a lot of local hibiscus folks love.
I usually just water from the top. I have a very fine tip on my watering can, so I can avoid wetting the crown.
The Stokes is pretty much what I described - very close to a 3:1:3 ratio, which is what the 3:1:2 ratio with the extra K would essentially have been (prolly for less $). ;o)
Al
I bottom water, because I have six plants in a tray, but they don't stand in water. I will water from the top on the Al's mix plants. :) I'll report in on how they grow.
Ok, good. Now I'll gently steer the conversation/thread back to trees in containers. ;o)
Al
Al, got a question. Can't a tree be 'bonsaied' in a regular pot and not a shallow bonsai type pot? Or when you repot trees do you use standard bonsai methods on the roots anyway?
I hope you get what I'm asking. This is probably answered somewhere in these threads. Could you save me some hours or days in research?
I regularly root prune every tree I own, whether or not it will ever be a bonsai. It's required if you want your trees to grow at as close to their genetic potential within other culturally limiting factors as possible; and it's important to the tree's vitality level. Once your plants get to the point the root/soil mass can be lifted from the container intact, both growth and vitality are affected by the stress.
Bonsai is a form of living art. In bonsai, our hand joins with nature's to manipulate trees in the visual areas of shape, harmony, proportion, and scale to make something pleasing to the eye and emotionally evocative. What you don't see is the ongoing care it takes to keep trees healthy in small, shallow containers, which are much less forgiving than large containers, but more esthetically pleasing, because smaller containers make the tree seem larger and older. I have dozens of trees in various stages of development I've been working on for a number of years that are still in 'training containers'. Some of these are very beautiful, and could be moved to bonsai pots and make much more impact, but most are still in training pots because I'm working on correcting flaws that require growth in certain areas or energy management.
For instance - I might have a maple with a low branch (on the trunk) that is critical to the design, but because the tree is apically dominant (focuses it's energy at the top) the branch is weak. I may cut the top of the tree back severely, the middle not so severely, and allow the lower branches to grow wild until they have regained vitality and have fattened so they are the thickest branches on the tree - just as they would be in nature. Once that is achieved, I might then put the tree in a bonsai pot to begin the fine ramification (branch work) that will set the tree apart from the coarser trees still in large pots. Large pots = coarse trees with big leaves & long internodes. Small pots = fine ramification and smaller leaves.
There are many other tricks and techniques that help us manipulate trees to get them to bend to our will; I just thought I'd mention a couple.
Al
Awesome! Thanks.
An actual tree question (sorry for my OT blithering earlier). I want a weeping larch for a container for my patio, and the vendor assures me that they do NOT survive living in pots. Thoughts on this?? It's a Larix decidua "pendula". I've seen larch used as bonsai...
I have several larch bonsai. They are genetically vigorous and quite forgiving, and will do very well in pots/containers, but you do have to attend to root pruning regularly - at least every 2-3 years. That's just a fact of life if you want to maintain woody material for the long pull in containers. The upside of that is root work isn't as daunting a task as you might think, and larch are among the easiest trees to work on. I would encourage you to try one. They can make a striking container specimen.
Al
Some of you might be interested in how we manipulate a tree into a striking bonsai. Below, you'll see a Larix decidua before any prepwork.
The tree is about 4" tall and has about a 1" trunk. I found it on sale at Menard's for $10. Here you can see I stripped some low branches off to give the VERY low branches some sun. These are the branches that made me buy the tree. I have no use for the top of the tree unless it's to utilize as a source of dormant cuttings.
In this picture, you can see that I've wired a branch up and to the left to serve as the new top of the tree. Next spring. I will chop the trunk off just above the branches where the wire crosses the trunk. After that, the branch on the left will be allowed to fatten. We call these sacrifice branches because we let them grow long and large, never intending that they will be a part of the composition. We use them to fatten the part we're going to use, and when their job is done, we 'sacrifice' them - the same way I'll sacrifice nearly the entire trunk of the tree. This is how we build rapid taper into our trees to make them look ancient.
If you look carefully, you can see another very small branch wired back to the right coming off that branch. I'll only be using a couple of inches of the branch coming off the trunk on the left. After it gets to be 1/2-5/8" thick, I'll chop it off where the little branch comes off of it and comes back toward the right, and I'll start developing that little branch, utilizing yet another sacrifice branch.
Within 3 years, I'll have another nice fat tapering trunk I can start building branches on to make a beautiful bonsai. In 5 years I'll have it in a pot and in 6-7 years it should be nice enough to show.
Al
This message was edited Jun 19, 2010 10:22 PM
That's really fascinating...I kinda want to try my hand at cloud-pruning, my patio plants have an Asian/tropical look. I don't think the Larix decidua "pendula" is the right tree at all for that, but there will be other trees...I've gotten a couple of good-looking smaller conifers from the bargain bin at the local nursery; the stem will be nice, but the branches have gotten stepped on or fork-lifted, so I grow them out and prune them up, though not as bonsai, just attractive pot plants.
I can root prune with no trouble, but pruning foliage to that degree makes me almost weep with apprehension.
Al,
Very interesting pictures and commentary, thank you!
I have a question about your 1:1:1 mix. You may recall my fir bark is a bit on the large side (picture above in this tread on June 11) and you recommended I use it for the gritty mix, not the 5:1:1 mix. Which I did, and I have now (inspired in part by your picture of an African violet in the mix) put a chamaecyparis (outdoor pot) and a ming aralia (houseplant) into it. But I'm finding it very hard to tell when it needs water. I can stick my finger in an inch and it doesn't feel damp, but that occurs a day after I water, so I'm not sure my finger is telling me anything useful. How do you decide water needs in the gritty mix? Thanks
Celene - you could cloud-prune the larch if you want to. The only difference between that tree & the upright varieties is the clouds would be pendulous. I've started (in my gardens) a J procumbens nana and a J horizontalis, both prostrate plants, that I'm training (the trunks) to sinuous vertical growth. They'll be very interesting after a few years. I've seen these plants grafted to other J understock, and I've seen them ungrafted and staked straight, but I've not seen them with sinewy trunks, so we'll see. You didn't mention whether your plant is on its own roots or if it's grafted to something vertical?
GG - Your comment is pretty common. When you first pot a plant, you need to give some consideration to where the roots are. If they're in the top 3" of soil, you need to water a little more often, but if they run deeper into the pot, you'll be surprised to see how much water the soil holds and how long it holds it.
You'll get used to the soil over the summer. You could use a sharpened dowel rod stuck deep into the soil to test for moisture, too. You could also stick a wick in new plantings until they are established. You can use the wick as a tell - don't water until the wick is completely dry right where it comes out of the soil. If you have a plant that wilts, try withholding water until you see it begin to wilt (for the information - not as a regular practice). This will give you an idea how long your plants can go between waterings. Remember though, that established plantings have roots all through the container, but young plantings might not.
Al
Hey Al, Thanks for all this great info! I had to wrap my head with duct tape to keep it from exploding from all the stuff I'm learning!
I have a question about watering with tap water witch is "hard". I don't recall the exact value, but will it be ok to use until I can "McGuyver" a rain water barrel. How does water hardness affect potted trees, especially JM's?
Also, If you please, I got a new acer at the nursery today (wasn't planning on it, but they got some new trees and an 'Orangeola' stole my heart). I would like to re-pot it using the gritty mix. Can I re-pot now, or is it too warm (90's), or should I wait until the cooler temps?
I can't express how thankful I am that you would take so much time to do this!
Mark
You're welcome, Mark. Alkalinity and hardness can have a significant affect or a minor one, depending on just how alkaline/hard you're talking about, and on your watering habits. If you're using a urea-based fertilizer, like 24-8-16, and watering properly (so you saturate the soil and at least 10-15% of the total volume of water applied exits the drain hole every time you water), it shouldn't be anything to worry about. My tap water has about 100 mg/L alkalinity, which is on the high side (100 mg/L is at the upper limit of what's considered ok) - especially because hardness is usually greater than alkalinity. About the only ill effects I notice is that my plants sometimes have a little difficulty with Fe. I've found that minute amounts of Sprint 138, an Fe chelate specifically for high pH applications, fixes that issue very quickly. In the winter, I simply add enough vinegar to bring irrigation water down to a pH of around 6.0, and that frees up the Fe and prevents the upward creep in pH that makes the other minors hard to take up.
If your acer is really root-bound, I would break off a little of the root mass from the bottom and score the sides of the root mass deeply with a utility knife, pot up one size and wait until spring. I have been repotting my maples before bud movement in the spring, but I've had 2 bonsai masters tell me that it's better to wait until leaves are appearing but still indistinct as leaves before repotting. I also just read the same thing in a recent issue of one of my bonsai magazines - also written by a master. I'll be changing my repotting timing to coincide with their observations, so it would probably be best to wait until spring and you see buds moving before you repot. There are probably instructions somewhere upthread - if not, come back (if you need guidance) and we'll work through it.
Al
Al, I second Mark's comments. This is invaluable information that I've never seen before and know I will use in the future.
Vinegar?
I thought I saw on a DIY show where the host used vinegar and water in s spray bottle as a weed killer.
Walter Reeves from Garden Sense on DIY Network I think (?)
Hmm, found somethings on the web as well.
Vinegar is distilled through a fermentation process from grain, apples, or grapes. Common household vinegar has an active ingredient called acetic acid, usually diluted to a 5% concentration. This may be labeled as 5% acidity.
Acetic acid, like most strong acids, is a desiccant. That means it removes moisture. When sprayed on plant foliage, the water in the leaves is drawn out, and the top growth of the plant is killed. Whether or not the root is killed depends on the type of plant and its maturity.
The strength of the solution of acetic acid determines how fast and how completely it will kill weeds. Full strength vinegar, not diluted with water, will be strongest. Vinegar with higher acidity is available, though it is not commonly found everywhere. A serious caution on using stronger vinegar in a home made weed killer formula, or for any household usage, will be presented later.
Vinegar is not selective when it is sprayed on plants. It has the potential to kill any and all foliage. This means that if you spray weeds in your lawn, your grass will die as easily as the weed. If you spray weeds in your flower bed or vegetable garden, the good can die as well as the bad. As a home made weed killer, vinegar will have limited application, and will require that valuable plants be protected.
Some plants may be more resistant to absorbing it. Leaves with a waxy or hairy covering may absorb less of the solution and suffer less damage. Some plants may die above ground, but send up new growth from the root. This means that you will not get 100% control using vinegar as a home made weed killer.
How And Where Do You Use Them?
This is another ambiguous area. Consider these comments about the effects of these home made weed killers on your soil, and how long they have this impact:
(Note, these are not truths, they are opinions)
* try to avoid spraying it directly on the soil. Vinegar breaks down the soil structure and kills beneficial microorganisms. In areas where this is applied, the vinegar can render the soil sterile for several years.
* don’t spray it on the soil. It is non-selective in what it kills meaning it will kill any plant life it comes in contact with and it will sterilize the soil for up to two years depending on how much you get on the soil.
* You will not be able to plant where you spray it for several months.
* The nice thing about using a bio-degradable homemade weed killer is that you are not harming the micro-organisms that live in the soil.
* Vinegar will indeed kill micro-organisms in the soil. It is a known germ killer as well. The good part about it is that it won't harm you or your pets, but don't spray it where you need the soil to be healthy with micro-organisms!
* The great thing about using this solution is that it is natural. Natural solutions are essential for a cleaner environment.
* Bear in mind it's a broad spectrum killer. Homemade products aren't necessarily better or safer than commercial ones.
* It is non-selective in what it kills meaning it will kill any plant life it comes in contact with and it will sterilize the soil for up to two years
I repeat, these are only other people’s opinions, found on the internet. Which one can you believe? Who would like to experiment and find out?
One thing that must be clarified is the mistaken belief that because something is called “natural”, it must be safe and helpful. An item that is derived from natural sources may be without harm in some settings, but could be poisonous in others. It could be helpful in one setting, but worthless in another.
Please use common sense if you attempt to make and use your own products, like home made weed killers, based on hearsay. But realize that you are embarking on a trial and error procedure. As they say, your results may vary!
What is certain is that vinegar and other home remedy products are effective at killing many plants, or defoliating most plants. You can use it where desirable plants would not be in danger. The long term effects for growing other plants or starting seeds are unclear, so take that into account with your future plants. (Acetic acid would lower the pH of the soil, which could be good or bad for your next plant.)
I am not opposed to using vinegar as a weed killer, only the cavalier promotion of the idea. I have used it myself with success in some areas. Read more about the vinegar recipe trials and several recipes that have been used at Vinegar, The Weed Killer. I don’t try to use it exclusively. Use it if you wish, with discretion. (That would be “taking it with a grain of salt” … but don’t add the salt???)
I'm certainly not an expert on this, I copied and pasted from:
http://www.garden-counselor-lawn-care.com/home-made-weed-killer.html
Mark
Mmhmm - it can be phytotoxic, but so can fertilizer, and I'm not suggesting you use it full strength to kill your plants. The poison is in the dosage. I've used it for years to acidify irrigation water for the plants I winter over indoors, and have been helping others to resolve micronutrient issues (deficiencies) by advising they add it to their irrigation water when I think it's warranted.
Other acids very commonly used to acidify water for plants are nitric acid, sulfuric acid, citric acid, phosphoric acid ......, others - all acting as both fertilizers and acidifiers, but potentially potent killers of plant tissue at higher doses - again, the poison is in the dosage.
BTW - household vinegar is very ineffective as a weed killer, even at full strength, because it generally acts primarily as a local herbicide - killing only those tissues it contacts directly & little more. Even horticultural strength vinegar doesn't work well on anything other than easy-to-kill species with shallow fibrous roots.
Al
This message was edited Jun 22, 2010 3:21 PM
From reading the above on vinegar it seems more harmful environmentally than Roundup. You can grow anything in a Roundup-treated area almost immediately. Plus, you can spray some areas and, depending on the seed load in the soil, have brand new weeds in about a week in the same area.
Al's right. The poison is in the dosage.
I recon so.
Now that I've had time to think about it, plain water, be it of the proper ph or not, can kill a tree (I almost proved that!). Fertilizer can kill a tree if too much is used.
It reminds me of a lesson learned from my father about over watering. He always said "WITHOUT water, you could live for a week, maybe 10 days. UNDER WATER, you only have about 3-5 minutes". It goes by the old addage that if a little is good, a lot must be better. We all know this is not true.
You also advocate the usage of minute amounts of Epsom salts, either up-post or in another treatise (although I don't recall the exact purpose) which is another "weed killer method" listed in the article.
So I'll concede that in small quantities vinegar can be beneficial, or at least tolerable. That being said, I think I'll stick to the urea based nitrogen process you described previously (again, up-post, or in a different discussion) and MacGuyver a rain barrel, and leave the vinegar out.
Thanks Al,
Wisdom is born of knowledge, experience and patience, and your wisdom is a boon to us all!
Mark
Thank you very much, Mark. That was kind of you. Take care.
Al
I have a question. I have a Globe or Navajo Willow in a huge tire, filled with composted wood, horse manure on top of Caleche soil. I figured the tree would go toward the caleche and the composted material would hold some moisture and fertilize it. It was fine at the end of last summer and it was great until a month ago or less. It lost it's leaves and now the branches are breaking off when I flex them. I don't know if it is Borers, as they come with them.(I have treated it with systemic, twice and fertilized with Fish Emulsion, but nothing. The mix is very damp down there I think and maybe it is too damp for the desert tree, however it is a mix that tends to not hold much moisture in containers that I have in the yard so I have been keeping it damp, when I push down about 3 inches.
What should I do? Take it out and plant it in the ground or what?
Dawn
Did you notice any oozing coming out of the tree anywhere?
Excess moisture because of the underlying caliche could be an issue, but there is no way to tell from here. Soils with underlying caliche are often very high in soluble salts, another possible issue. Is the caliche bed solid? how deep beneath the soil? High soil pH is also often a problem, causing micronutrients to be insoluble and unavailable - particularly iron and often manganese, which would also be made worse by soggy soils as the lack of O2 in these soils causes additional precipitation/unavailability of these elements.
I don't know what to tell you, other than to say (not in a mean way) that what you're facing fortifies the idea that selecting the right plant for the right place will go a long way toward alleviating frustrations with your landscape.
Al