Moles/voles eat Lily bulbs??

Thanks everyone! I have been so busy bulb planting, that I am dizzy. I am getting older...need to keep reminding myself, as I order bulbs like when I was a youngster!!! Need to pace myself...BUGGYCRAZY is just the most amazing Lily supplier ever. Just discovered her this year and I am hooked. Hallsons also sends beautiful huge clean, fresh lily bulbs. They are a good source, too.
I just hope I am not contributing to mole obesity! hehehe

I do the same with almost every product. I presume that fertilizer makers, for example, overstate the amount I should use, so I use half the amount they suggest and halve the frequency.

I think the only time this will get you into real trouble is with herbicides. Follow the directions exactly. To little won't do the job, too much will burn the plants without them taking in the poison. The only thing you might add is a surfactant - something that helps the herbicide stick to the foliage better ( sometimes called spreader sticker).

Also, realize that using half the amount recommended at half the frequency is a one-fourth application. Not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm sure you are correct about herbicides, but I never use them. I hand pull all weeds. And certainly I realize that half the amount at half the strength is a one quarter application. But I'm a big fan of observation. I have noticed that plants from garden centers are sometimes what I call nitrogen junkies. They have been pumped up with high nitrogen fertilizers to get them ready for early season sales. Once they go into the yard or pot they decline, unless they are kept on high levels of nitrogen. I grow a lot of my own stuff, but I also get plants from a fab nursery in Racine Wisconsin, and then I give them compost, fish emulsion, sea kelp, or a liquid 10-15-10 fertilizer I use at half strength. I might rotate the last three. If I want a greater response I increase frequency of application, but not strength. Part of my reasoning is that there are a lot of plants we grow as annuals that are tender perennials. I bring them in at the end of the season and put them in my windows. My tidal wave silver petunias in my hanging pots are in fact three years old. If I use large amounts of nitrogen fertilizers the soil becomes loaded with salts, and that's unhealthy for the plants. If I use things like sea kelp I can also rotate the soil in my pots to new beds. I do like to use Osmocote, because I really like the time released feature, but my plants need a bit more help because, as I know you know, it doesn't kick in until the temperatire reaches 70 degrees. It doesn't take as long to get there in Minnesota, I'll bet, but it takes a while.

Surfactants I use. I have a product that mimics the Cornell formula that I use to control blackspot and powdery mildew. It has a sticking agent in it.

The real point I was trying to make is that I like to remember that producers make money selling me things, which perhaps encourages them to suggest unnecessary use.

And Diann, I have come to the conclusion that NOTHING works on deer and squirrels. They are completely relentless creatures!

Donna

You are completely right on all your points, Donna.

I might add that:
Who uses that much toothpaste with each brushing?
And who washes their hair with so much shampoo so as to make their entire head completely white with soap foam?
etc., etc.

LOL!!!!!!

Leftwood, your friend's comment about the Frittilaria grown in Permatil is interesting. On the common Snakeshead type, I didn't notice anything different. But on the taller, thinner stemmed ones, they performed miserably in the Permatil. The stems were weak and many withered without fully opening.

I thought that Allium would not be attractive to voles like Daffodils. Before the Vole population explosion, I had planted 50 Globemaster directly in the soil. They did fine for three years. Last year, they produced a lot of babies, which I dug up and planted in Permatil, just to be safe. Last fall I also added 50 Mont Blanc's. This spring all of the Mont Blanc's emerged and also the baby Globemasters. All of the original Globemasters fell victim to the voles. The Allium did fine in the Permatil.

Donna, Your gardening practises sound a lot like mine. I use everything you mentioned as well as Alfalfa and Milorganite. I also use tons of leaf mold, compost, Mushroom Soil and scoops of minerals. The only higher conscentration commercial fertilizers I use are Hollytone & Osmocote for shrubs.

I am particularly fond of the Dr. Earth and Organica products. Many of the Dr. Earth products contain Mycorrhizza, and their Bat Guano is great. Organica has great buys on Kelp and Bacillus. Arbico Organics and also Snow Pond Farms have much better prices on the Fish & Kelp, Milky Spore and the Beneficial bugs. With using the bugs, I never had to spray the roses at all this year.

http://www.drearth.com/

http://organicatechnologies.com/

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1046645/

http://www.snow-pond.com/

Squirrels will not dig when super phosphate is spread over the surface of the soil. Never. I have been doing this for many years and it works.

Wow, Stormy, what great websites. I'm always looking for bargains. And yes, our garden practices are very similar. I'm a big Milorganite fan too, and I'm lucky because my local Ace carries 36 pound bags for $6.00. I was just outside putting in last season's daffs and throwing milorganite on top. But you are definitely ahead of me in some ways: bat guano and beneficial bugs, for instance.

What beneficial bugs did you use? I was doing lots of research into beneficial nematodes but was overwhelmed by the information. And, as I alluded to above, sometimes I don't have full confidence in the vendors. I really like government sites. Just a lots of fact - pretty dry - but good info. I used Milky Spore last year for the first time and the reduction in Japanese beetles was dramatic - the year before they had really gotten completely out of control. My grass is intact. Last year at this time I was digging up dead grass and doing major reseeding. Beneficial nematodes were the next step.

I use Magic Mills Mix on all my roses, plus Osmocote. MMM has some of those good things you mentioned, like alfalfa. A company comes out for us in fall and root fertilizes all our trees and shrubs with mycorrhizza. That stuff is really magic. I have a serious organic gardening friend who makes his own leaf mulch, and he lets me have some every year. And we have an organic farm nearby that provides us with good compost in exchange for our yard clippings.

You know, as I read all this I realize how overwhelming it must seem to new gardeners. I grew up in condos so I never had a garden until 11 years ago. The developers scraped off all the top soil so I had clay (you could actually see that it was yellow). They threw down grass seed they charged us $534 for because we didn't want sod and it got snow mold. They planted seven viburnums so deeply they rotted. They put in an allegheny serviceberry with canker and a Green Mountain Sugar maple so deeply it drowned. At first I threw up my hands, but I couldn't bear to see such ugliness outside my window. Then I got with the program. Step one was to have the yard slit seeded (for less than half their cost) and the second was to throw compost everywhere each spring and fall. Then, like you and obviously Leftwood, I started doing the research and using some trial and error to figure out what was effective and sustainable. But wow, once you get it down and see the results it's just so gratifying.

Thanks you guys.

Donna

There aren't many japanese beetles up here yet. Pretty much just around the golf courses so far. But I hear from several friends in the Chicago area that this has been a down year for JBs. That would make sense, because milky spore usually takes a year or two to take hold and do its stuff. I am guessing, Donna, that that is why your JB populations are down this year, and not due to milky spore. Or maybe it's some of both.

Mycorrhiza are so good for so many plants, even for those that don't need it. Donna, you've come a heck of a long way in just eleven years!

Thanks for the great links, stormyla.

This is really becoming a most excellent thread!

Sandnsea, for some reason, there haven't been many squirrels here this year. Normally they are driving me nuts (no pun intended) digging up bulbs and making a mess chewing and planting my Black Walnuts everywhere. But this year there really have been very few. I just recently bought some triple super phosphate to treat my Hydrangea and when I start on the tulips and daffs, if they come digging, I'll be sure to apply some of the phosphate. Thanks for the tip.

Being that this is a lily thread, guess I'll post a lily photo. This may possibly be the last lily blooming in Pennsylvania. It's blooms are actually outlasting the mums behind it. It is Rio Negro. I forgot that it was a short lilly when I planted them towards the back of the bed. I'll have to move them next year. But what a lily it is, the blossums are almost 10" across. I've never seen such hugh blooms on so short a lily. It is just under 24" tall.

Beautiful and amazing that it is blooming now. When was it planted? I shall look for that lily come spring. The other use for top dressing with the super phosphate is to mark where I have planted so I dont slice one. Do moles tunnel underground or dig from the top down? Maybe in the hole, they would not like the super phos either, just as the squirrels dont.

Ok, I wonder if any of you have used my favorite liquid fertilizer--- Algoflash? I order the flowering plant type and get 5 bottles every year. I use it every time I water my pot and planter plants---oh, they love it and thrive. I have tried just about everything else out there and this is far superior. When I start from seed in the garden, after germination, I give them a douse and they take off. Algoflash started in Germany and is quite popular in the UK and can be ordered at their website. I have nothing to do with the company, just trying to pass on a tip.

Donna, We too had very little Japanese Beetles here this year. I saw maybe a dozen. Most of my friends had significant reductions in the beetles too, but not as good as mine. Normally i use 4 beetle bags and have to refill them about 3 times. However, I treated the entire property last year with Milky Spore and 2 applications of Beneficial Nematodes at the proper times, mid July and late September. I repeated those steps with the nematodes again this year, but also used a spring dose as well.

There was not one June Bug here this year and only a hand full of Cicadas. Last year the June Bugs were so bad, there were times of the day when you wouldn't want to go out at all. We did however have an unbelievable number of Locusts this year. People who use Milky Spore swear that it works on Cicadas and June Bugs, but the Milky Spore company does not make that claim. I will say that I have found virtually no grubs this year when digging. Normally I find 3 or 4 in every shovel of dirt, both the large ones and the small ones, despite multiple applications of GrubX over several years. I will also add that I have not seen any evidence of moles this year, which was my goal.

To cover the entire property (1 acre) it took 4 of the 40 oz cans and one of the small cans. i purchased and used the tube applicator that MS sells for $9. It made dispensing the product very easy as you would just walk a long and shake the tube with the holes end of the tube at ground level. This kept a lot of the product from getting airborne. The MS instructions said to shake it at every foot. Snow Pond's directions said to shake it at every 3 feet. I compromised and shook it at every 18". Yes, it's just like how we amend every recipe that we read! The cost from Snow Pond Farms with tube was $350.

Sandnsea, I have never heard of that product, but will look it up. I never use anything higher than 5-5-5 except for on shrubs and trees. If a plant, or group of plants needs something more , I will add specific ingredients.

Donna, relative to the Beneficial bugs, this year I used Ladybugs and Lacewing flies. Oh those ladybugs just love to eat the thrips and aphids off of the rosebuds. So many of them would be clustered around the rosebuds that I would have to pick them off and drop them onto other plants. After a while I noticed that I didn't seem to be seeing very many of them around. So I did some further reading.

It seems that I needed something to keep them here once the thrip and aphid population started dwindling. So I bought another set of LB and also bought some LB houses with lures. When the bad bugs would get scarce, I'd place some lure in the houses, which would keep the LB's happy until some more Bad Bug's eggs hatched and produced a new food source.

The lacewing flies have to be applied no less frequently than every 2 weeks. Arbico has a nice program where you express interest in buying the season's worth of bugs. They then ship you the bugs every 2 weeks, but I adjusted it to every 3 weeks. They don't charge you until they ship, but they give you the quantity price break as if you were buying them all at once. I also use their 20% discount coupons, which they will also use in the already discounted program.

In addition, I used three applications this year of Diatomacous Earth. The Milky Spore applicator tube came in real handy for applying the DE as you could keep the product at ground level away from your respiratory system. My real nemisis this year was earwigs, so I'm hoping that all of these bugs and the DE will really reduce next year's population.

Sandnsea, Moles tunnel underground. Voles dig all different ways. I have read that if you have voles and grow lilies, you should cut your lily stems flush with the ground. It said that if you leave a couple of inches of the stem above ground, the voles will start eating the stem and will follow it right down to the bulb and then eat the bulb. In other words, the stems become bulb locators for the voles. That lily was planted in September.

Another O/T question. I had to spray some Herbicide on some of my neighbor's Creeping Charlie that was invading my bed. I have a few lilies that I want to plant in that area. I did the spraying last Wednesday. Does anyone know how long I should wait before planting the lily bulbs?

Stormy,

Whoa, thanks for the tips on the lily stems. I left them as markers. I'll take care of them tomorrow.

I have this wonderful mental pictures of your making love nests for the LBs. I can just see them calling to each other - no love, don't leave, it's cozy here! Good to know about Arbico. There are so many sites that sell beneficial insects that I got totally confused last year.

Out LB population has been low the last couple of years. Before that they were all over us - hair, face, grabbing onto the neck. I understand that those were Asian beetles. But whatever they are, they show up in October, after the JB's have departed.

Most herbicides have a pretty short active life, especially the kind that I imagine you use, which may be a form of Roundup (which my conservation community uses) because it has to touch a specific plant and, once it dries, is ineffective. You are probably quite safe the very next day, but I'm no expert.

Isn't it interesting keeping an eye on the neighbors' weeds? I have lots of nepeta, but it is primarily pink and white. So when creeping Charlie tries to show up (it has a fascinating way of trying to hide amongst the other with its purple flowers) I rip it out.

A really great plant company shipped me a burdock plant instead of a primrose. I let it alone until the second year (it's a biennial) was able to identify it, and offed it. My favorite is still a common mullein that popped up. I recognized it, looked it up, and found that thr plant, when it blooms (another biennial) produces 100,000 seeds. Bye! Then there was th adenaphora that appeared. I am completely anal and routinely walk around the yard after my morning run looking for problems. It must be difficult for people with really large properties to keep an eye on the goodies that pop in.

Thanks Stormy. and Donnamack. Thankfully the neighbors cats are constantly guarding the yard and she says they bring home beheaded voles. I feed one turkey and tuna so he protects the yard as his own.

Stormeyla, did you use a Round up type formulation (glyphosate) or something like Weed -b-gon (2,4-D)?

Leftwood, Weed-b-gone.

Angiosperms (flowering plants) are divided into two major categories:
Monocots and Dicots
Internal workings are different at some very basic levels.

Weed-b-gon type products kill dicots, but have no effect on monocots (unless you overdo it). That's why it kills dandelions (a dicot), but not grass (a monocot). Lilies (lilium) are monocots. So even though the weed-b-gon is still there in the soil, it won't hurt your lilies. However, if you are interplanting with other flowers, they might be dicots and therefore still susceptible, probably until next fall, depending on which product you used.

So go ahead and plant away . . .

It's great to know WHY something is true, as opposed to simply knowing that it is true. If I know why then I can extend the knowledge to other areas.

Thanks Leftwood.

D

Thanks, Leftwood. Do you know if there is somewhere a list of which plants are dicots and which are monocots? For some reason Roundup is ineffective on Creeping Charlie. I hate having to keep plant specific treatments around, like Sedgehammer for the Nutsedge. I just spied another Burdock yesterday, in a totally new area than the others. That and thistle are my nemises, the wild grape, roses and raspberries having gotten under control.

Sandnsea, I wish my neighbors had cats. One of them feeds all of the local groundhogs!

Donna, I don't really use any professional services. Mycorrhizza (endo & ecto mixes of many different varieties) gets applied in 2 ways. I use a granular form and put a pinch in every new planting hole. For the established plants and trees, I use a conscentrated powder form diluted in water as a root drench.

Usually, I mix beneficial micro-organisms (Organica Plant Growth Activator, Espoma Bio-tone has some in it too) into the drench and apply both at once. I bought a 20oz commercial soup ladle on Ebay and carry a 5 gallon bucket around the beds to apply the drench. I have a third of an acre of beds. It usually takes a week of doing it 2 to 3 hours a day to cover all of the plants. I do this spring and fall. I don't spray or broadcast these products as I don't want to be stimulating the weeds.

Alfalfa meal, I buy a 50 lb bag for $8 and mix about 5 cups into every wheelbarrow of planting soil. My established plants get regular root drenches of various brews throughout the growing season. Usually I brew some very simple forms of compost tea to which I add liquid kelp, Fish emulsion, Bat Guano, (or other manure), Black Strap Molasses, Alfalfa Meal and in very rainy seasons, some liquid iron. If I am low on compost, I use a commercially prepared compost tea bag, from Arbico. This is dispensed the same as the Mycorrhiza drench.

The only difference with these drenches is that it's Ok, even beneficial to let the liquid sit over night. When it's going to rain, I line all of my wheelbarrows, carts, tubs and buckets up and fill them with these ingredients and let the rain fill them. The ground is supposed to be wet for optimal efficiency of the application of nematodes, Milky Spore, Mycorrhiza and compost tea. If it rains for several days, that will give the beneficial organisms time to multiply while they feed on the Molasses. Occasionally I stir the mix. If I don't have any beneficial organisms, I just add some native soil. Then I can dispense the brew over the course of a week. I do this 3 or 4 times over the course of a season. Again, I don't spray these teas as I did that one year and grew 24" tall dandelions everywhere. Use root drench application only.

I'm not familiar with that Magic Mills Mix, but will look into it. It is OK to use the Asian Lady Bugs. They are here to stay, so why not put them to work. I have not found that pulling the Creeping Charlie will eradicate it. Only spraying it controls it for me. Both of my neighbors cut down and dig up plantings in large sections without seeding the exposed ground. Every weed known to mankind moves in and flourishes there. One doesn't cut the Garlic Mustard, because she thinks the flowers are pretty. There is also an uncut field across the street on which I have to call the township to get the owner to mow it. Don't scream, I grow Mulleins.

If I had to attribute the increased performance in plant growth to one ingredient this year, I would say hands down, it is the alfalfa. I used evrything else last year and only added the Alfalfa this year. It has made a substantial difference. Be sure to thoroughly soak new planting when using it. I've just started adding the Bat Guano to my teas, towards the end of the season.

There may possibly be some more lilies in Pennsylvania this fall as I came across these yesterday. There are too many leaves on the ground to find their name.

Round Up is one of the best herbicide for Creeping Charlie! I suspect it is either old, or not being applied correctly. Remember:

Round Up does not work in cool temperatures. It must be at least 60F.

Mixing at higher concentrations does not help, and usually hinders its effectiveness.

The product is taken in best by newer foliage. It is ONLY take in through the green parts of the plant, mostly leaves. There are always customers where I work that come back and complain Round Up doesn't work. Come to find out, they pulled or roto-tilled most it before application. Wrong!

The reason why the active ingredient (glyphosate)is inactive in the soil is NOT because it immediately decomposes. Glyphosate adheres to soil particles, dust, etc. so tightly that plant roots cannot imbibe them. Glyphosate is still there for a year or so, but rendered unavailable to plants, so there is no activity. Excessively dirty, dusty foliage will also bind the product in the dust before it can get into the plant.

The aforementioned information applies to "contaminated" water too. If you use "clean" water from a well especially, it has lots of minerals that act the same way. If it's dirty with junk that settles out, that's even worse. Keep the dust aand dirt out of your solution. Make sure your application container is spic and span before you put the round up in it. Depending on these variables, and the susceptibility of a particular plant to the product, holding a mixed solution of Round Up for one day may work. While I wouldn't just toss anything held longer than that, I would expect what the label claims. Using distilled water is the only way us regular people can get around this, but even that solution wouldn't last forever. The premixed solutions are exempt from this problem of water contamination.

I don't know of any lists, or even a data base that you could look up particular plants to see if they are moncots or dicots.

Seedlings that come up with two leaves (cotyledons) before they produce their true leaves are dicots. But some dicot seeds keep their cotyledons below ground. So this is a good test to know if they are dicots, but it can't tell you if they are not.

If a seedling comes up with just one leaf to start out, and that leaf is a true leaf, meaning it is the same a subsequent ones, you are probably about 80% sure it is a monocot.

Thank you, Leftwood. I should have said that I don't use Roundup on the Creeping Charlie as it will kill every plant life in the area and leave exposed ground for more weeds and more Charlie to move in. I only use Roundup in a very targeted fashion, directly onto a plant and usually brush or wipe it on, not spray it. I try to put in onto the bottom of the leaves.

Last spring,when the voles started moving from bed to bed, they made trails all through my lawn. That left many long tunnels where the Creeping Charlie moved in. By the middle of last summer, the Charlie was pretty much growing in over half of my lawn. Repeated applications of Weed-b-gone did kill it. I reseeded and filled in all of the vole runs. Those buggers did dig right into the beds and I have to be vigilant that the Charlie doesn't take hold in the areas of the beds where they like to enter and exit the beds. Using Roundup in these areas only proliferates the problem.

Someone just told me that you get some Juicy Fruit gum, chew it a bit, then push it down into the moles/vole holes. Supposedly it gums up their digestive tract when they try to eat it and they die.

Sandnsea, That may be effective if there are just a few voles. My gardens have a large infestation. They are capable of reproducing every two weeks and usually have 7 to 13 young per litter. I have tried every known method of populatation reduction with only limited success.
I've recently heard of studies being conducted to use sterilization for population control. The methods being studied involve the use of Neem Oil as the sterilization mechanism.

Stormy,

Oh, heck, you don't need Magic Mills Mix. You are obviously an extremely sophisticated gardener and you don't buy what you can mix. MMM is fish meal, steamed bone meal, cottonseed meal, blood meal, activated sludge, and an organic compost activator. NPK analysis is 6-5-1. I only use it on roses. They suggest using it 2-3 times a season in conjuction with their time release product, but I use it twice with one helping of Osmocote, 2 doses of epsom salts, and then after that kelp and fish emulsion. I understand that you have a major property so it makes much more sense to blend your own, and you sound like you have the space to do it.

Please don't think I am anti-mullein. I understand that verbascums are in the mullein family and I think they are gorgeous. I was referring to common mullein, which is everywhere here, especially along train tracks. It spreads very aggressively here, and I am a cool color person. Of course, there are exceptions. I was given a digitalis grandiflora by a lovely person from Dave's Garden and I love it. Such a soft color.

One spring as I was cutting back my ornamental grasses with my husband's help I came across a bunch of voles. It was April! I had rarely seen one - only their damage. I am embarassed to say that I told my husband to get a shovel while I watched them and he watched in horror as I started whacking them. Not being a lily grower, he couldn't understand that the loss of at least 50 lilies (including Longidragon from B&D, which no ones seems to have anymore) would engender such fury.

Donna, Thanks for the MMM info. LOL, I'm not a sophisticated gardener, just an interested one. And my mix/work spot is a large eyesore off of my lower patio. But I love it. I could never afford to buy all of the commercially prepared products that it would take to feed these beds and amend this amount of soil.
I get about 20 pickups of free composted leaf mold from the township every year and about 4 truckfuls of free manure from a friends' equestrian center. I have 2 landscapers that drop off Landscaper's truckloads of leaves for me every fall. I grind these and mulch with them. I pick up free loads of rockdust from a local quarry every spring. Just now I've found a free source for mushroom soil. That's another thing I won't have to buy!!

Relative to the Mulleins, I have noticed that one or two look like they may be reverting to species!!

LOL Donna, Now I've never done that!!

That's funny Donna! Tell your CGB he shouldn't be too horrified by your behavior ~ you've heard of Whack-A-Mole? How about Vhack-A Vole? http://www.lorenzgames.com/game/vhack-a-vole-2

Moby, you had that site built just for this thread, didn't you!

Personally, I like this one:
http://n.ethz.ch/student/mkos/pinguin.swf
click on the yetti, then click again
less page loading time too.

Donnamack, I love the picture in my mind of your fury, defending your lilies! LOL!

LOL, you guys, I couldn't even whack a vole that way!!

Seriously, I do think that population sterilization may be the only way to ultimately control the damage caused by voles. Fortunately, it's not just we ornamental gardeners that are seeking a solution to this pest.

There has been extensive crop loss throughout the US in the last few years as there has been an unexplained population explosion among all of the different vole species across the country. So now the agricultural community is focusing their efforts on the most effective solution.

It used to be primarily the orchard owners who suffered severe crop loss to the voles. But in the last few years, growers of all kinds of crops have been severely affected. Most articles that I have read attribute the crop attacks to loss of woodland habitat due to land development.

When I was looking for spots to plant some new bulbs today, it occurred to me that I did not remember seeing any Drumstick Allium this past spring. I went back and checked my bed photos from the spring, and sure enough not one photo contained any. Those were planted 4 years ago, before I started using the grit. Another meal for the voles.