Moles/voles eat Lily bulbs??

Can anyone give me any info on whether moles and voles like to eat Lily bulbs? If so, what can one do to get rid of the pests? I am not about to use wire mesh . Thanks very much for any info you can give.

To my understanding, moles and voles burrow under ground down to about 4-5 inches. I am also guessing that they do their dirty work during the warm weather months. Every year my lilies continue to thrive, and we seldom lose any. However, tulips that we plant in the fall (October) always come to bloom in the spring, and are dormant until the following spring. I am pretty certain that during the summer critters are eating the tulip bulbs because we lose so many tulips from year to year. Each fall I plant in excess of 100 new tulip bulbs in the same garden as the lilies. It was suggested to me to plant tulips deeper as well as to plant many other bulbs deeper than moles and voles tend to burrow.

It will be interesting to see if we lose any crinums or hymenocallis that were new this year. The orienpets that were new bulbs bloomed only 50%. The lilies that continue year after year are asiatics and orientals. The orientals are in the same garden as the vanishing tulips.

My new experiment is with container gardens. We dug up most of the bulbs in a garden invaded and infested with Houttuynia (chameleon plant). We did well with lilies in containers this past summer. We use 35 gallon containers on our deck which is sunny and provide good compost and lots of leaf mold. We keep them off the deck about 12-15 inches on plastic milk-type crates and make sure they have REALLY good drainage. Something like that should keep out moles and voles if that is convenient for you.

This lily was grown in a container together with about a dozen other lilies. I'll report in on how it winters.

sandnsea, Try planting them in Permatil or chicken grit.

Thank you Cathy166 and StormyLa! I shall try both your suggestions. I do not want to purchase those products that poison the moles, due to neighbors cats (don't want them to eat the moles and die). I will go to the Garden center today and see about purchasing those products, Stormy. And Cathy I love the idea of planting the lilies in pots. We have lots of them on the deck. Many thanks............

Way to go Stormy! You are quite right about Permatil. After losing about 100 bulbs to the little devils I put some in beds years ago. Since it doesn't disintegrate I can even dig in the beds to add or subtract bulbs, toss in a bit more Permatil and my lilies are untouched. Since it is expandible slate, it actually improves your drainage. It sounds like a cliche, but as it reads on the bag - "do it once, do it right."

Donna

Cathy that lily photo is so beautiful. Oh, my, I can tell I am going to miss the garden this winter so much. Dang!
Thanks Donnamack.. I am getting some Permatil tomorrow.
Don't want to provide the moles/voles an expensive Lily dinner on me! :-)

Donna, What was the name of that daffodil you plant to deter creatures? Was it A P Milne?

I just got a smelly euphorbia. I read something about that(roots) being a deterrent??

sandnsea, I've read about such a Euphorbia, but have not heard anyone ever report their results. But for practicality, how many of them would it take to cover all of your beds?

It was WP Milner, and it worked. You can find it at either McClure and Zimmerman or Brent and Becky. I just got 18 more from M&Z for $11.00! I bought from both companies last year and could not tell the bulbs apart when they bloomed, so both were good. There were 2 small beds I experimented with. One had is eaten by rabbits every year because I had never Volbloked it, and the other by voles. I planted lilies and tulips as a test and put the daffs around the perimeter - perhaps 3 in 2 feet. I also put Milners aroubd a group of new balloonflowers I had planted (the rabbits would dig them up). In spring all of the bulbs were there. I was pretty shocked. And Milner itself is a cute little thing. It's a miniature trumpet.

Donna

Thanks, Donna.

Euphorbia is a GIANT genus.
Do you mean euphorbia, the poinsettia?
Do you mean euphorbia, the cactus-looking type?
Do you mean euphorbia, the type called spurge?

And then, within those groups, which one?

Even if it doesn't work, I'd like to know.

I am also going to try my proven squirrel deterrent IN the hole. I have a feeling it may work there as well. Whenever I plant bulbs I sprinkle a good amount of Super phosphate on the top of the bed where they were planted. Squirrels will not touch them for some reason (smell?). Wonder if this will work IN the hole for voles and moles as well??
The Euphorbia smells just like a skunk bigtime and it is called "Shorty". Can you believe the class. is nowhere to be found on the label and I googled it and looked awhile not finding its classification. There is a variety called Gopher Spurge or Euphorbia Lathyrus which is a deterrent. DG talks about it.
Have you all noticed how they are getting away from the botanical names on plant labels??? What is this world coming to? The dumbing down of America, I guess.
So I do not know if this Shorty will do anything, but I remember reading somewhere that the smelly ones have the repellant qualities.
Stormyla...as to how many to cover your beds...no idea...just trying one to see (that was the last one at the nursery, or I would have gotten more) . But thank you all for your help! Keep the ideas coming. :-) Maybe we can seed euphorbia. It is a pretty thing.

Thanks, Donna! so much. I will definitely get some of those bulbs.
I so appreciate all the knowledge you all have shared with me. And, as far as how many euphorbias one would need....do you know that I had kept the one plant a few days in the garage and it stunk the garage up something fierce. Powerful little devil!

Sandnsea, you are welcome. If I can spread information I acquired the hard way, it will make gardening easier and less expensive for other people. And the more gardeners the better!

Donna

Leftwood, I found the info on that other Euphorbia/Vole discussion. They were discussing Euphorbia lathyris also referred to as Gopher Purge or Gopher Spurge.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/55261/

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Euphorbia_lathyris.html

After reading some of the reviews of Euphorbias, I think I want to toss this one!

Like the daffodil idea alot better!

sandnsea, don't be so quick to toss it. I have 20 or 30 of them and they can be really beautiful nice plants. Some are aggressive self seeders. But all Euphorbias, including Pointsettias emit that caustic sap when cut. You just have to be careful. I've never had a problem with any of them.

Thanks Stormyla! I have 2 different varieties myself and never had a problem, but neither of them smell like this one. Do yours have a strong odor?

No, sandnsea. I would probably have less voles if they did.

Nearly all of the Euphorbias have thick waxy coatings over their leaves and stems (includes the Gopher spurge). If it gets out of hand, this makes it very difficult to kill chemically. Just keep a good watch on it, and "stomp" on it quickly if it looks like it will take over. Many Euphorbias will behave themselves in one situation, and run rampant in another.

Good point, Leftwood. I've recently had just that experience with a Sedum that went wild when I moved it to another location.

Thanks, Leftwood. Don't know if the benefits outweigh the potential negatives.

I can't weigh the benefits vs. risk either. But I will say this: at the FIRST sign of misbehavior, I would wage war to the death.

I have often wondered if injecting herbicides with a needle in the stems would work. 2,4-D formulations (like Weed-B-Gone) and glyphosate (Round Up) are two of the few herbicides that you can mix together and apply. I would do that. Insert the hypodermic needle at ground level, and put the herbicide in after the most of the pressure that forces the latex sap out has subsided. Apply to all or most stems, but you won't need much in each. Think about how much would be absorbed on a normal plant if you were to spray on.

Leftwood, I have had numerous conversations with many sources on the effectiveness of different types on RU apllications on extremely resistant weeds. Specifically on diehard Thistle and Burdock Articum infestations. Apparently RU needs as much surface coverage and repeated applications over a period of time to get down into the really deep roots. For instance on the Burdock, painting the undersides of the top leaves first, then a week later, doing the middle leaves, then another week, doing the bottom leaves. Then coating the stalks from the top down in 2 stages, a week apart. Finally cutting the stems off and painting the cut stems with RU.

I followed these instructions and finally after fighting them both for 4 years, they are gone from that bed. I inquired about injecting the RU into the stalk and that idea was nixed as it would kill off the stalk too quickly and not carry the poison down to the root, where it was really needed.

Wow, a very interesting method. I suppose it's purpose to get enough RU down to the roots all at one time, rather than multiple applications to the whole plant, or even one application to the whole plant, that would apparently work more gradually. It would seem logical.

But I question if it would work with spurges with such thick waxy coatings. (I believe Gopher spurge is one of these.) Sprayed on droplets just roll right off the leaf like mercury. Nevertheless, you're right. If herbicide was to be injected, it would have be very, very mild. In the same way, sprayed on herbicides at higher concentrations are not better. They burn the leaves before the herbicide can be absorbed.

Thanks for that very informative post!

After hearing you both, I may pass on this plant I have ...or put it way out back where it cant do much damage if it turns out to be a thug.

Yes, Leftwood, the RU folks are adamant about not using the product in higher conscentrations than recommended. They say it is counterproductive, will only kill the top growth and make it impossible for the product to have a conduit to the roots. Even with injecting it, you should start near the top of the plant. Syringes are not the easiest things to buy today unless you are diabetic. Actually, an injection of bleach should also be effective.

I feel like maybe this little Euphorbia I bought may turn out to be like the plant in "Little Shop of Horrors". A potentially big problem in a small pot!

I think he's cute . . .

sandsea, Last year I ran out of Permatil and as it was late in the season, couldn't find any available locally. I refused to pay $20 to have a 40lb bag of it shipped from an internet site. So I went to a feed store and bought a 50lb bag of chicken grit. I planted quite a few lilies in it last fall and they did just fine. This year, I planted all of my lilies in the chicken grit.Like the Permatil, it is pelltized shale.

The Permatil costs about $12 to $15 for a 40 lb bag versus the chicken grit's much cheaper price of $5 to $8 for a 50 lb bag. The brand of chicken grit I have been buying is called Gran-i-grit. It comes in 3 different sized pellets. The smallest pellets are closest in size to those of the Permatil.

Leftwood, that picture is so cute! I just loved that movie.
Thanks, Stormy! What a great tip!!! I definitely will try it and the Permatil. If all these lilies get eaten I will be very "GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR".

Why thanks, sandnsea2. I drew it for an article I wrote for our local chapter of the North American Rock Garden Society (NARGS).
It was called "Taxonomy: It's not a Scary Word!"

I suppose this goes in the "who cares" category, but chic grit (chicken grit) is not pelletised, it is crushed. This produces the angular, relatively sharp edges to the stones that presumably deters the digging moles. Grit can be made from many kinds of rock, granite and marble being the most common. If you can, get the granite, as it will be the sharpest, IMO. The oyster shells would be sharper yet, I would think. Grit usually comes in four sizes: 1, 2, 3 and 4. There is a size 0, but it is pretty uncommon.

Thanks, leftwood. I guess that I didn't understand that there is a difference between pelletized and crushed. The Permatil is shale. The Gran-I-Grit is Granite. It has been a life saver for me. Three years ago I lost a bed of 3000 tulips to the voles. The last 2 years since using the permatil and chickengrit, I haven't lost any to the voles. The lilies do fine in either product. I do find that I have to plant the tulips deeper when using the gritty products as they tend to heave more in the gritty products.

As I was planting Hyacinths today in chicken grit, it reminded me that I wanted to share some more experiences with planting bulbs in grit. My first gritty bulb planting was using Permatil/Volebloc. The bag tells you to dig the hole, layer it with Permatil, place the bulbs in the hole and fill the hole with Permatil. Do not mulch on top of the Permatil.

Being a person who is devoted to building great soil, I was horrified at planting in stone. However, I invested quite a large amount of $ in the product, so I decided to follow their instructions on half of the bulbs. To make for a good experiment, no matter which rodent inviting bulbs that were planted, half went into pure Permatil and the other Half were planted differently.

The other half of each type of bulb was planted by first placing 2" of Permatil in the bottom and sides of the hole. Then adding 2" of soil, covering the bulbs with another 2" of soil, but not all the way to the edges. Then filling the rest of the hole up with Permatil, at least another 2 inches.

My finding were that all of the bulbs planted in pure Permatil were much more susceptible to heaving. Also, on a number of the tulips planted in pure Permati, there were quite a few tiny nicks and scars on the foliage. The blooms were OK. There didn't seem to be any difference in how many bulbs emerged or bloomed. Nor did any of the blooms seem to be larger or more colorful. Those were all first year plantings, so I will see this spring if the ones in pure permatil appear less nourished.

One note about Hyacinths and the protection that the gritty products offer them. Often when Hyacinths are emerging from the ground, the heads seem to sit just at or slightly above the soil level. Although the gritty products are great at keeping the voles from eating the bulbs, it does not prevent them from chewing off the emerging tops of the Hyacinths. Once the heads get about 2" above ground level, they seem to stop chewing on them. So a number of my Hyacinth blooms have knarled looking tips.

Sorry if this is O/T for a Lily thread, but I wanted to post this here for anyone who may be trying it.

DonnaMack, do you have anything to add or comment on what I've said?

I have seen it written by reliable fritillaria experts that chic grit can damage frit bulbs in the same way, giving them nicks and superficial wounds. Not the best thing for disease prevention.

Your observation about more frost heaving with bulbs planted entirely in the Permatil supports the root growth pattern I described earlier for many bulbs. To further expound on these bulbs whose roots die completely over summer, what happens is:
In the fall, most grow what are called root initials, which are short little roots, that would not extend past the Permatil surrounding the bulb. So there is no anchoring of the bulb, thus more susceptible to heaving. These short roots may help to anchor the bulb in soil, but their real purpose is to be there ready to jump into action when spring arrives. Many bulbs cannot grow roots at all in the spring, if they hadn't produced these root initials the prior fall.

Actually, I never followed the instructions on the bags. I assumed that, like most product vendors, they wanted me to use the maximum amount of their product. I mentioned in some notes I wrote about it that I only used a fraction of the amount instructed. I scatter it rather thinly, giving my bulbs plenty of breathing room. I did not use solid layers. Having seen numerous vole trails I was careful to put a layer at the perimeter of the beds. And I always mulched on top of it. I have never experienced heaving or damage to the bulbs themselves.

I do the same with almost every product. I presume that fertilizer makers, for example, overstate the amount I should use, so I use half the amount they suggest and halve the frequency.

Donna

This message was edited Oct 31, 2009 9:35 AM

Now, it it would prevent deer damage.... :) LOL