Hydro, EB, Raised bed, Container?

Dgal, looks great! You are so going to enjoy this method!

I'm having a hard time figuring out from the picture how deep the water is. It appears to be over 6"-8" deep. If that's the case, I think it's too much. Seems to me, it only takes 2"-3". Need Twiggy or Podster to verify that amount.

Robin

Congrats Don. I know you're just going to love your results. It looks nice and level. You might as well get started on another because you're going to want one. It works great for okra, squash and cukes.

Your depth does look maxed out but if you have normal rain it will probably be fine and reduce your need to top it up. The larger the plants get, the faster it goes by transpiration. I'd add a bit more dirt around those maters just to give them some more root space and more bottom heavy. I had some problem with big maters blowing over last year. If it starts raining every day like it did here last year, they might stay a bit too wet. If you have holes in your buckets like those found in nursery pots, they'll send out roots into the water. They're very adaptable.

I think those are potatoes in the foreground and I've had mixed results. In 2008 I didn't put mine in the water until I hilled the last time and they did great. Last year I put them in as soon as first leaves and they did badly. This time I'm doing some of each to see what works best.

I have onions and cabbage doing very well but I've never gotten straightened out from that bad freeze in January. It heaved my strawberries a half inch out of the ground. Most of the winter stuff has bolted and most of the tomatoes are still in the GH waiting for this cold snap to pass. I'd rather sweat than shiver and the plants agree.

I hope you'll come back and let us know how it goes. I think you make 5 of us trying this out...pod, oldude, msrobin, me and you. I'm planning to try corn and melons this year. It works for everything else so ... I'm also going to try some shade cloth so maybe I can get some tomatoes in July and August for a change. I'm wishing all of you great success.

Twiggy, what kind of melons? I've got seeds for several different personal size watermelons and cantaloupes that I am going to try in a couple of buckets, too.

edited to correct info: Locakelly just posted a picture of her shade cloth setup on another thread you're posting on.

This message was edited Mar 19, 2010 11:55 AM

Thanks so much for all of the encouragement. I love this concept and expect great results. The frame is made of 2 X 6's set about halfway into the ground, so the water depth should be close to five inches. I went ahead and filled it up expecting the buckets to wick up some of the water right away. I'll probably maintain it at the recommended 2-3 inches.

Podster - I thought the same thing about adding more buckets. Right now, that's all I have planted, but it will fill up. I am thinking about setting the tomato plants in two rows in the center and having a common trellis for them. Then put smaller stuff on the outside rows. The frame is 4' X 8'. The next ones will be more narrow so I don't have to reach way in to pick tomatoes.

Twiggy - should I add dirt around the plants or raise the whole plant? I know some plants and trees don't like to have dirt much above their roots.

Actually, the plants in the foreground are strawberries. I can see where potatoes might not do well as they might stay too wet.

Question: How would you do melons? I mean, would you train them to lie on the ground outside of the frame, or what?

Also, tell me more about shade cloth.

Another angle:

Here's some shade in AZ. I won't do anything as fancy and I'm thinking of using some bamboo sticks for the frame. Most tomatoes won't set fruit when it gets in the high 90s and the nights stay around 80. The humidity can clump the pollen too. Shade cloth should help keep the dew off. I will get my sauce and such from my spring plants but it sure would be nice to have a few fresh ones all summer. Cukes do better with part shade when it gets hot.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=7640799

I've got seeds for Toad Skin and Honey Rock cantaloupes and several hybrid Chinese melons. I've never grown any of them. Last year I had good results with winter squash and cukes by tying them to bamboo sticks. The squash went crazy and climbed the tomatoes and their sticks too. Some crawled on the ground. I had several good sized squash that hung unsupported until they were ripe so I figure maybe cantaloupes can too. I've got some mesh onion bags and old shrimp net that I can make slings with. I don't like things on the ground because they're in the way but I think I can lay down some old plastic and let some run. My neighbor cuts my grass and I have to try to keep things out of his way or else.

Don you can fill those tomato buckets up. The stems will root anywhere they are touching the soil. You can either bury the lower leaves or pinch them off an inch from the stem. The more roots, the better the plants grow. Leaves near the ground seem very susceptible to foliage diseases so they aren't important. Many people try to have 12" of clean stem between the dirt and the first leaf once they get some size but I usually wait until they are yellowing to take them off. They will grow so fast with the steady water supply that they can out run lots of problems.

Podster has some photos of some really neat bamboo trellis in the middle of this thread. Teepees are good too.

I think planting your tomatoes low in the pots is an excellent idea. I did that successfully last year. As the plant grew, I added more soil and compost. As Twiggybuds said, it will develop a better root system. I liked it too, as I was ahead on the planting out last year. I could easily cover the pots without worrying about weighting down the foliage on those frosty nights.

I think the tomato plants in the middle of the bed with a community trellis will be an excellent system. I look forward to seeing how you design it and of course, how well it works for you.

I tried golden rind honeydew melons in the w'bed last year but not successfully. Spaghetti and Peter Pam squash was moderately successful. The melons bloomed but I suspect I lacked the pollinators. I trellised them upward as they were a smaller melon. I hope to try some small sugar pumpkins this season.

Looks good dgal!
Have much trouble getting it level? I see the pile of sand so that should have made things a bit easier. I am so far behind with my projects that I will most likely put out a couple of pools this year.
Oldude

No trouble at all, Oldude. I have a pretty nifty leveler.

Oh, I want a leveler like that!

Me too! Don just bring that pretty thing over here and I'll find you plenty to do.

Ya'll will hear me howling all the way to TX and KY if it frosts bad tomorrow night. I planted out more maters today but only in my new bed against the S side of the garage.The first 5 have been there for 2 weeks and doing fine. It's a windbreak and the white siding reflects the heat and light back at them. It's all early varieties that won't be the best but this time of the year anything is good. One is blooming and the others are fixing to. The earliest to bloom is Bloody Butcher and the plants were the most vigorous from the start. I'll have seeds to share later if you are interested.

Twig
Now you know the rule is do not plant before Easter, but like you, I don’t listen to the old folks rules. I am going to take a long look at the weather this Friday and abort or commit to planting then. I am turning down the nighttime temps in the greenhouse to try to harden off the toms, but I don’t dare go too low cause of the eggplants.
The tomatoes at the far end are already producing tomatoes and I am running out of pole to support them.
Dgal, that little tractor with the quick hitch is all a person needs to make gardening fun.
Oldude

Here's hopin you don't get frost, Twiggy. We're only supposed to get to the mid thirties, so not too much worry.

Mater seeds? Absolutely! That's one I haven't tried. I just have Early Girls and a yellow cherry mater. I haven't ever tired any of the heirlooms, but might next year.

Tractor season is starting to pick up. I had three little mowing jobs this week. I do some acreage mowing and light dirt work. Nice little supplement to my retirement and SS. I also have a box blade. If you ever get a tractor, I highly recommend getting a quick hitch attachment. It makes changing implements a breeze. Just back up to it and raise the three point hitch. it hooks the implement and picks it up. Then, just throw two levers and you're done. Don't even have to get off the tractor.

Twiggy, I was just looking at your garden diary and have a question. Now remember I'm a novice so don't laugh too hard, but what is a loop and what's with the Hydrogen Peroxide?

lol. You threw me for a loop there for a minute. It means that little loop (stem) you see when tomato sprouts are trying to get their heads out of the dirt. Mine don't come up head first.

I use nothing but the cheapest potting soil and composted cow manure from Lowes and Walmart for everything, including seed starting. I use it forever so it gets all mixed up eventually. It really is interchangeable to me and I also add homemade compost but never have nearly enough. Anyway no telling what's in it as far as insects, bacteria, etc. People are always going on about the importance of seed starting in sterile conditions.

When I first joined DG I hung out on the prapagation and brugmansia forums and they were praising the powers of hydrogen peroxide so that's where I got the idea. Have you ever had seeds rot before they sprout or had young seedlings turn limp at the soil line and fall over? It's called damping off and it prevents it.

I put several seeds to a pot. I saturate the pots of dirt before putting the seeds in using 1/4 cup to a gallon of water. You can just eyeball it because it really is harmless. Then I use an old Tupperware collander to sift some dirt to cover the seeds. I keep the pots in a tray that holds a half inch of peroxide water. It's best to use it to water with until they get their first or second set of leaves and you can add fertilizer if you like. Soaking tomato and pepper seeds over night can cut a few days off germination time but isn't necessary. For okra it really helps.

Besides sterilizing, it carries oxygen to roots. You can't over water. That was always a big problem for me when I'd use something containing peat.

Don you've just got to try some different kinds of tomato.

Oldude I hope you can get caught up and make a bed later. If you ever have troubles with bitter cucumbers, please try a couple in the pools.

It’s been a while and I said that I would not post any more pictures but I would like to see updates on your progress.
I have started new plants and transferred them outside from this system. The left side of the pond are new but the right side are the same old plants that I originally started.
Oldude

Wow ~ they appear to be equally loaded with fruits and blooms. The only apparent difference is the foliage on the plants on the right appears a bit more aged.

What is your assessment?

Great going dude. I see a barrel, tubing and a cord...does this mean you're feeding and aerating in true hydro style? They're looking awfully fine and put mine to shame. I bet you can keep those peppers going til they die of old age, whatever that is.

I sabotaged myself this year. I was convinced that we'd have winter until April and didn't start seeds early. My peppers only have about 4 leaves but I'm setting them out and they're showing their appreciation already. I also figured with a late start I might miss the aphids but still have a few in the GH. I haven't had to spray and they disappear when I put them outside. It's done gotten hotter than I like. I've got 4 peppers that rose from the dead that got froze to the ground just sitting in the GH. They're coming on strong with several new trunks.

I set out some early tomatoes on March 4 and they're loading up with little ones. The first to set was Bloody Butcher, Extreme Bush, Sophie's Choice and Polar Star in that order. Last year I was about finished planting by April but I just finished getting them all out this week. Also have squash and cukes planted out. In the GH I have cantaloupe, zukes, herbs and more hot peppers ready to go.

There hasn't been any real rain here so far this month. That's typical and I'm so glad I'm not growing in the dirt and having to rotate soaker hoses every day. I'll get some pics tomorrow.

Dude have you figured out how deep the water needs to be for those 5 gallon buckets and how often do you have to top them up now that they're outside? I've noticed that once my maters got big, the wind and lower than normal humidity is really sucking the water out of them lots faster.

Lookin good, Old Dude. Since we are doing show-and-tell, here is my little (water bed) garden. Everyone who sees it is impressed, and several have said they are going to try it too. Twig, you may have started something. I, for one, sure appreciate your sharing it on DG.

The maters are loading up. I had to pull everything out of the bed yesterday because I had developed a leak and had to do it before the plants were too big to handle without breaking limbs off. I only lost one little mater, so not too bad.

Wonderful! Don I was hoping you'd show us some pics. You sure got it going on. We're going to have plenty maters and peppers whether it ever rains or not.

I just set out cukes. I have a rack from some bunkbeds that I'm going to let them climb on. I've got high hopes that it will work well.

I've gotten way behind pinching and staking my maters so that will be a top priority this week.

This first pic is of heart and paste type indeterminates. They naturally have sad and sparse looking foliage but I'm hoping they load up before it gets entirely too hot.

This one is some determinate earlies lined up against the garage. Most of these have set fruit. They were planted out on 03/04.

Here's some lettuce and celery. This bed isn't even holding water. I just pulled these out of a water bed to make room and to give them some shade. It's new and too shallow. I hired a guy last Dec. to make me some new beds and every one is either too deep or too shallow or both as in unlevel. Grrrr!

Here's some more mostly determinate maters. This bed is at the property line and I always plant some for the neighbors. 2 cherries for the little boy and 5 Principe Borgheses for the lady. She won't touch a fine big beefsteak but loves those little plums. I'll close up the gaps because they're closer together than they need to be.

Oldude don't laugh. I'll catch up with you someday. Now you can see what I mean by "sabotage". I'd kick myself if I could reach it. These are all California Chilies which are like an Anaheim. I have others set out but they aren't any bigger.

You said ~ I'll close up the gaps because they're closer together than they need to be. Explain please?

I am way behind. Three beds full but small plants and we are already soooo dry that I can't set the bamboo stakes in the rock hard ground yet. Good thing the plants are small.

Dgal ~ great looking bed. I look forward to hearing your success thru the summer.

Here's a bed in transition. I took out the broccoli which was finished and put maters in their place. Cabbage, garlic still going.

Hey pod. Just go ahead and plant. You can worry about the stakes later. I'm wanting to put shade cloth over some of my beds so maybe I can get some good production through July and August. I can't drive a stake in my concrete dirt for nothing. I think I'll have to stick some bamboo in the pots and lash it all together. It's going to be ugly and you won't be seeing any photos of that.

By fill in the gaps, I meant in that photo it looks kind of crazy with everything crowded together and a couple empty spots. You may not have notice it but I did. Not important.

Don those strawberries are just beautiful. Mine are blooming and I've had one ripe one. I fertilized the onions and strawberries today. They looked like they needed a boost. I have some strawberry plants in 2 gallon pots and some in 1 gallon. The 1 gallon is working better. I'll get it right next year.

Here's another bed that I took the broccoli out of. This one has some yellow squash that's loaded with little ones but no blooms have opened yet.

Twiggy, I have a novice question. What do you mean by "pinching" your maters?

Podster
I am pleased with the results from this system and look forward to doing it on a larger scale as soon as time permits. It is not better than a hydroponic system but it is much more user friendly and much more forgiving to mistakes or equipment malfunction
Dgal
Are you using the Florida weave on your tomatoes? Great pictures and the tomatoes look happy.
Twigybud
I would not laugh because I have seen what your garden looked like before the big freeze out. Did you have to replant everything?
Oldude

Oldude I love the way you put it. I'd be facing financial ruin if I had real hydro rigged up for all the stuff I'm growing and all the stuff I plan on trying to grow. I think I'm up to around 30 beds now. My biggest expense has been pots. I got a break when I found some used ones last year for $.25. So far this year I've only had to buy 60 bags of cow stuff from Lowes at $1.37 and a new roll of plastic for $57. I don't know if I could/would grow on this scale if I had to use city water. Fertilizer seems to go further using the beds than when I worked the dirt.

I can't seem to get anything done for having to replace plastic. I figured the last roll was full of manufacturing defects. I can hold it up to the light and see weak spots. Then today I got to reading the box and it was only 4 mils when all this time I thought it was 6. I made sure my new roll is right. I can usually count on 2 years and sometimes 3 with the 6 mil. I get aggravated real fast when I have to empty out beds just to replace the liner.

Don you asked about pinching...It's a matter of great controversy and personal choice. I wish oldude would have said something about it because I'm curious about how he does it.

I scrolled back up and see that you are growing Early Girl and cherries. I'm not familiar with Early Girl's growth habit but the cherries are usually wanting to take over the world. Growth habits are normally categorized as determinate, semi-determinate, indeterminate and tree. If you look at your main stem, you'll find new stems arising from the axils of the leaves and the stem. On an indeterminate plant, these will turn into a stem every bit as large and productive as the original. In other words, you'll often end up with a massive jungle 6-8 feet tall that requires a cage to contain it. They'll just keep growing until frost kills them. If you want an orderly situation, you pinch out those new growths as they appear and keep the plant to 1 or 2 stems. Generally there will be less fruit but they'll be bigger. Some of mine have gone crazy and I need to hurry up and deal with it.

When you pinch a little sucker you throw it away. If they've gotten too big for pinching, you can use them for starting new plants if you need more. This is a sucker from Heidi, an African plum that I only had one plant germinate. I clipped it, took off all but the top leaves and stuck it in a yogurt cup full of water. It has been in there for a week to 10 days and is now ready to pot up. Some folks just stick them in moist soil and they root fine.

Determinate plants have a reputation as being shorter, mostly earlier and finishing once they set fruit all the way to the top. I grow a lot of them because I'm not able to fool with cages. They can be very productive and aren't usually pinched because they don't keep going forever.

They get a bum rap from most tomato nuts in my opinion. Most of the commercial tomatoes are determinates because they harvest them mechanically which destroys the plants. Most people think that they ripen all their fruit at once and that's it. Some of them do and they're great for canning. Last year I discovered that some will keep going with a new set of very short stems that produce more bloom clusters.

Last year all my tomatoes shut down by late June because it was abnormally hot. So I really didn't get to see all the action they were capable of. I've got a couple varieties picked out to start around May 1 so they'll be just starting to set in late June when the real heat is supposed to hit. Podster grows Porter to get through the heat and I will try them again this year. They're indeterminate and I'll be pinching.

Oh! I just love seeing everyone's pictures! Hoping to get a couple of waterbeds made in the next few days for some of my tomatoes.

Twiggybuds,

Thank you for this thread.

I've gardened for years and have been tempted to just quit with the veggies since I moved to NE FL. If the bugs didn't eat my plants, the heat and humidity got em. DH became an avid gardener a few years ago and we've worked hard on our gardens. We've kept track of this thread since last summer and became convinced we should jump on board and try doing it your way.

He just finished the second of two rather large waterbeds/troughs or whatever you want to call them and here's hoping they do the job for us. So far so good. One bed was dug out and lined; the other was framed of timbers and laid on top of the grass which was then padded with lots of newspapers and extra plastic before the liner went on.

So far we have pots of okra, eggplant, tomatoes, yellow squash, zukes, garlic, onions, different herbs and a few flowers that are happily sitting in an inch or so of water. There are quite a few pots of different hot peppers as well as a dozen bells. I have several pots of the old heirloom crookneck cushaws that I'm watching with great interest and they're sending vines down the yard already. If cushaws will grow with their feet in water, I believe anything else will too.

Your idea is certainly catching on; one of my beds is in my front yard, 16'x4' running alongside my driveway. Visitors do a doubletake when they come in and spot it; one lady brought several friends from her church group to check it out. They left here saying they were going home to plant water beds in their yards. Only a couple of people have looked at us like we're nuts. and I guess their eyes will really roll when they see a shade canopy go up in July. Just wait til they see us remove our well laid out square foot gardening beds and replace them with "water beds."

Thank you for sharing your idea.

Yolie

Yolie I'm so glad you broke silence and it just tickles me to hear about all the things you're growing in the beds. This is not a cure for bugs, heat and humidity but I believe the lack of water stress makes for stronger plants that hold up better against a lot of bugs and disease.

You said your cushaws are running down the yard already and that's a problem I'm going to have to face. Last year I bought probably 4 cantaloupes from the grocery store and they weren't as good as my homegrowns used to be. I'm going to try some of those, Red Doll watermelon, Sugar Pie pumpkin and Lady Godiva squash. I'm thinking of laying down some of my old leaky bed liners for them to run on so I won't have knee high grass and weeds growing amongst them.

My success with growing so many things in these beds just makes me want to try all sorts of things that I'd given up on before or never even tried before. Sweet Potatoes maybe.

I think you're very courageous putting beds in your front yard. I abandoned mine when I became disabled. Partly because I had plenty of space in the back but mostly because the water beds are not aesthetically correct with all the ugly black plastic and lined up like a Walmart parking lot. Now I'm running out of space in the back and thinking about reclaiming the front. Since yours was so well received, maybe mine would be too.

Let us know how your garden grows through the season.

Msrobin I appreciate that you're trying this too. You're under the gun with your new business and I think if there's a drought you'll have some perfect maters for your customers without working yourself to death watering the dirt. In your case, the pools are insurance. It just sprinkled for about 2 minutes here. I'm so glad that I'm not depending on it.

Thanks, Twiggy. I think the tomatoes and peppers are going to be our lifesavers this year. We're going to keep our membership low, but I'm positive with the things already going and what will be started really soon, we'll be able to keep our members really happy! The extra peepers and tomatoes will be sold for additional income. And I'll continue working on setting everything up for our ultimate goal of 30 members.

Have an idea for you based on something you just mentioned. The last two years, I have planted melons and cantaloupes under my bushes and fruit trees and they have done fairly well. I didn't use the plastic, but I did have a nice layer of hay mulch. If you did something like that, the plastic would keep the weeds down, the mulch would look nice and keep the fruits off the hot plastic and the whole thing looks quite attractive. It would look beautiful in any one's front yard or along their driveway.

Allright ~ I am trying a small sugar pumpkin. Got a few potted up and in the waterbed. The reading I've done says pumpkins are not worth the trouble from here south. One book said canned pumpkin is far cheaper and easier. My logic was the smaller might work better in potted conditions and this one is a good eating pumpkin. I have plenty of extra (fresh from Willhite) seed if any of you want to give it a try?

I want to hear your thoughts on the sweet potatoes please? I am currently harvesting slips and have no clue what I will do with them. That little dab of rain passed over here on Mon a.m. and we are already soooo dry the ground is like concrete. I won't be able to plant in ground. I haven't set the bamboo yet either so may miss out on the trellises this season.

By the way, earlier there was mention of a silver plastic mulch? Will that not make the soil retain too much of the moisture?

Podster, been thinking about your sweet potatoes, but didn't have a whole lot of reliable info or facts to back up my thoughts, so didn't mention anything earlier.

I did try some slips in a container (approx 35 gal) a couple of years ago. Got them in late, left town before they were done in the fall, so don't know exactly how well they did. The next spring, it did look like there were pretty good size pieces of sweet potatoes decomposing, so I am guessing they did fairly well. Probably didn't get as big as they would have in the ground, but that's not really a problem. The main thing is too make sure they were well drained and kept on the drier side. I'm wondering why you couldn't build a wide raised row along a fence or something out of the way, to plant the Sw Pot? My Sw Pot rows were about 12-15" high and produced huge potatoes. The "concrete" soil underneath would soften with the looser soil piled on top and some roots would reach that deep. Topped with a bit of mulch, the soil stays just damp enough for the potatoes to grow in that looser layer.

Regarding being worth the effort of growing the pumpkins at home...just about every canned or processed vegetable can be found at a lower price than what it would cost you to raise it. But your's is healthier, it makes you happy to grow it and gardening keeps you out of trouble. I think....LOL!

You know that reference said most of the canned pumpkin purchased in store is actually made with Hubbard squash. Truth in advertising Hmmm...

So you don't think sweet taters in water beds would be a viable means of growing them?

Pod I guess we had the same idea. I've also got fresh Sugar punkin seeds from Wilhite that I will share if anyone wants them. I've never grown a punkin before but I seem to remember from the Giant Pumpkin thread last year that they have extensive roots. I'm mostly just experimenting and will be astonished if they get any size to them. We've seen how roots exit the holes in the pots in the water beds and I think this compensates for the cramped quarters of the pots. In real hydro systems plants get massive roots without any pot or soil at all. My delicata squash finished quick and had some nice sized ones but only a couple on each plant. I think punkins would act about the same.

I've been considering the idea of sweet potatoes for awhile now and have a rough idea to try. Years ago, I built a 2' square frame out of 2 x 6 lumber, set it on my concrete patio and put a plastic soil bag in the bottom and halfway up the sides. It had a couple small holes in it that allowed it to drain very slowly so it only needed watering every other day. Then I filled it with potting soil and planted flowers. It worked so well that I built 2 more. It retained the moisture much better than a normal container. I'm seriously thinking of making a water bed, punching a FEW holes in the plastic and mounding it up with oak leaves, potting soil and compost to mimic those old boxes.

You might be wondering why I don't just plant in the soil. My soil is nothing but sand. It won't hold moisture at all. Amendments just disappear quickly and the nematodes are awful. It's also very acidic. All of those are huge problems for me and this new approach might solve all those problems and keep the tree roots out. I think it would work for anything else as well. What do ya'll think?

Msrobin that sounds beautiful, like real landscaping. I'm thinking about it. Maybe a small bowl shaped bed like above for a single vine.

Pod that silver mulch supposedly thwarts the squash vine borers and I have some foil faced radiant barrier left over from my house. I'm going to try it. If it retains moisture that will probably be a good thing for me.

Moisture retention in pots in the water bed might not be a good thing. In ground or normal potting conditions I could think so. Please give us a report on that when you try the silver mulch.

Willhite certainly sends enough seeds! Hope they do well or I'll have lots of pumpkin seed to pass on! lol

My "in ground" conditions are similar although we have a bit of clay with the sand which turns it to concrete. Tree roots are an issue here competing with the plants for nutrients and moisture. That is part of the reason I dismantled my waterbeds, I wanted to see if the roots were drawn to the hint of water. That was not an issue but I did find groups of holes eaten into the bottom layer of plastic. That damage appeared to be chemical and I suspect it was from the underlayer of cardboard I had placed to smooth the surface. BTW, this year I leveled the beds with sand and made it much easier.