It's all about the Species

stormyla, I'm new to lilies too, the last couple of years I've gone crazy. I also believe you like/love heucheras, my second favorite plant. I believe that Citronella is considered an asiatic lily. At least when I ordered it this year it was listed as an asiatic. I could be wrong.

Debbie, It blooms towards the middle of the Oriental season and is very fragrant. It's foliage resembles an Oriental, not an Asiatic. Yes, I know you are my fellow Heuch lover!!! I really appreciated how much you encouraged me when I was growing my Heuch collection.

stormyla, As I said I'm just learning about the different lilies. Thus, I could be wrong. I've learned so much in the last couple of years from this forum. For years I didn't know the difference between asiatic and oriental lilies. I also cut down the lilies after they bloomed.
I'm so glad that I helped encourage you with heuch's, I really love them too.

Citronella is an asiatic hybrid, even though you will find catalogs or other literature that may say they are a species. Black Beauty would be classed as a species cross, not a species.

The classifications that are presently popular - asiatics, orientals, trumpets, orientpets, LA, LO, etc. - are really man-made and artificial for the most part, compared to their natural botanical order. Not that there is anything wrong with it, the organization just best fits the human take on what lilies "should" be, and harmonizes with hybridization efforts. Thus, according to the International Lily Register and checklist 2007 -First supplement, (thanks inanda):

Division I - Asiatic hybrids
Division II - Martagon hybrids
Division III - Euro-Caucasian hybrids
Division IV - American hybrids
Division V - Longiflorum lilies
Division VI - Trumpet and Aurelian hybrids
Division VII - Oriental hybrids
Division VIII - Other hybrids
Division IX - Species and cultivars of species

On the other side, there is the natural taxonomic classifications, that follow the evolutions of the species and how they are genetically related to each other. Thus, species like Lilium davidii, duchartrei, lankongense, leichtlinii, concolor, fargesii, pumilum, majoense, etc. are asiatic. Species like Lilium speciosum, auratum, japonicum, etc. are oriental. And other species lilies are also grouped according to genetic relationships.
http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/images/basics/classific_new01.jpg
http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/images/basics/lilium_phylogeny01.jpg

Thank you Leftwood. The more times I read something like that, more of it sticks in the brain. They are such beautiful plants that are such a gift after the long winter's wait. Thank you for the links.

thanks for the clarification leftwood

Isn't Lefty just a veritable fount of knowledge? Sure glad we have him. :)

Well, I guess I do overflow sometimes.

well I'm glad you overflow cuz I'v learned a lot from it ;0)
Gloria

Overflow all you'd like ~ we're here to soak it up. ;)

Stormyla, The L. pardalinum likes a very wet environment, but not soggy. It grows, sometimes, in stream beds where the stalk and maybe the bulb are in water but the roots are in rocky soil. Time for the scooby-doo tilt of the head and wondering right? I haven't gotten mine to get very tall or to bloom in two years, yet it is repeatedly referred to as one of the easiest to grow.
Any tips for us Leftwood?
In the "not so easy to grow category".... I have received some small L. philadelphicum, I believe variation andinum. Anyone ever grown it?
Thanks,
David

Thanks, David, I had read that it likes a fair amount of moisture so I planted it in a spot where the soil does not ever get really parched.

Some of my species this year.
This 1st one is L. superbum, just opening.

L. michiganense

L. leichtlinii

L. leichtlinii var. maximowiczii, after a shower

L. lancifolium

L. lancifolium var. flaviflorum

L. Henryii

L. Davidii

Wow, those are magnificent.

Nice collection, plnstrok.

No advice on L. pardalinum from me. And I have no experience with it, unless you can count killing one. A good healthy looking bulb from a gardener in central MN (zone 3). I planted it in the fall, and it never came up.

I also have some tiny seedlings of L. philadelphicum. Actually, yours look better than mine. Mine are from native seed gathered about 70 miles from me. I did not germinate the seed, nor collect them., however. Supposedly, your var. andinum (I would assume so also) may even prefer an alkaline soil, as opposed to the eastern variety philadelphicum which likes more acidic to neutral. Do not baby them. They apparently can use a lot of water in the spring, but prefer to dry out more in the mid summer and fall. I have to echo that advice myself, as this is the second season for mine, and they inadvertently take a beating (drying) in summer, and don't kill, while I would expect other lilies of that size to die. When they get big enough I am plan to plant them with some prairie grasses I already have growing (Bouteloua gracilis), as they seem to prefer a "wild", uncultivated setting. Full sun is best.

Thanks for the ideas. They pretty much go with what others have said, except it was especially nice to read "Do not baby them". That tends to be my approach in general, after all, they WANT to grow, that is all they want to do, go through their life cycle and carry on the species.
I have been told that L. philadelphicum does not not want rich soil, and I am somewhat confused about nitrogen and humus and whether nitrogen poor soil, (which this species likes?), means old worn out soil and/or soil with lots of organic matter which takes up(?) nitrogen as it decomposes. I thought it gave off nitrogen as it decomposed.
Or does organic matter take it up and then give it back?. Sorry if the question is not crystal clear, but that shows my confusion. I usually plant in a combination of the native soil, new top soil, (which is humus and some sand), with a dash of Canadian peat tossed into the mix. But I get the impression that this species would find that too rich.
Thanks,
David

A Primer on Organic Matter and Humus

For organic matter (the gardener's definition - not that of a chemist), most everyone has the right idea. It is "stuff" that once was (or still is) living. Not just plant materials, it includes fungi, bacteria, animals and their byproducts, etc. They can be in their raw (living) state, or a decomposing state.

Organic matter uses nitrogen during the process of decomposition, and releases nitrogen when it is finished. The micro organisms that do the breaking down use nitrogen in the process. When they are done, they have nothing else to eat, die, and release nitrogen.

Most of the time, decomposition is not an "all or none" scenario regarding nitrogen availability. Some things will break down faster, and release nitrogen as other matter will still be using the element. Thus, while there can be an initial binding of available nitrogen, a sudden explosion of released nitrogen at the end is improbable. There are two exceptions to this "rule":

1) Organic matter that breaks down very quickly, like grass clippings.
Given the needed moisture, it all break down "right now", because it is its own source of nitrogen, and so does not need to steal nitrogen from other sources (like the soil). It finishes decomposing all at about the same timed, releasing nitrogen pretty much all at once.
2) Organic matter that breaks down very slowly, like sawdust.
On the other end of the spectrum, these organics are inherently lacking in nitrogen and so must commandeer it from other sources. They tie up available nitrogen for a long time, but usually release it in metered amounts .

Humus is the end result of organic matter decomposition. It breaks down no further, and is largely composed of humic acids. It, too, can be a good amendment to soils. If you are adding organic matter, you will also be adding humus, at least as an automatic future amendment, when it finishes breaking down.

This is the true definition of humus. However, the two terms - organic matter and humus - are pretty much used interchangeably in the common vernacular. So you are now one up on most everyone concerning the correct terminology.

When you buy compost, technically it will be a mix of organic matter and humus. It is done cooking in that it won't heat up anymore, but not necessarily completely broken down. This is a good thing.

When you buy topsoil, the organic component in it is humus.

When you buy humus, hopefully it is labeled correctly, and it is humus, not compost. But, I wouldn't bet on it.

David, I would say your soil mix is on the rich side for L. philadelphicum. You could add more sand, or plant in close conjunction with other plants that will provide root competition for the lily. That's what I plan to do when I plant with prairie grasses.

Lily lovers, Mamajack is looking to offer a lily co-op for some not so run of the mill lilies. Do you know of any vendors who offer species lilies, martagons and such who might be amenable to a group purchase?

Summer Chase Gardens, based in Minnesota, has the best selection of martagons anywhere - 17 cultivars. I know both of the co-owners through our Lily Society, and they are very knowledgeable. But they don't have any other species, I don't think, and may or may not have other ones you might want.

Thanks, Leftwood. We can always do 2 vendors or 2 co-ops. I will call them.

Any others?

A Martagon co-op?? Oh, YEA!! Samantha

Thanks Leftwood. I was thinking maybe I needed to take a class in soil or something but Your primer helps a lot. Since this variation of L. philadelphicum likes acidic soil I was thinking that more Canadian peat would raise the acidity but where does Canadian peat fall on the nitrogen scale? would that be providing too much nitrogen? Is that what would be making to soil too rich? I was also thinking to add sand, as you say, and very fine gravel, which is in the pots in which they arrived. I am going to try at least a couple of different planting environments.
Thanks,
David

David you must have misread: L. philadelphicum var. andinum, being the western variety, will prefer neutral to alkaline soil, or at least more alkaline than the eastern variety, which would be L. p. var. philadelphicum.

While Canadian peat moss (sphagnum moss) is acid base, it has virtually no nutritive value.

Lean (not rich) soil, could be "worn out" soil, but in most cases, including this one, think of it as a mineral soil. That is, heavily composed of rock or mineral substances, like sand, pea gravel, grit, perlite (expanded rock), limestone chips, etc., that do not hold nutrients readily. Worn out soils could be the same in this respect, but often have a fine texture and relatively poor drainage properties. It is important to know the distinction.

Trying your seedlings in different places is really the best way to do it, if you are able. There are always other environmental characteristics of your area that may come in to play, and change the validity of general advice.

Plntsrok that is a superb series of photos - well done!

Thanks. I was sorry to see that you lost your favorite, "testaceum". Is that a Lilium or are you referring to the ice plant? If the former I am not familiar with it. Do you have any images of it?
David

Yes testaceum is a species lily. I don't have any digital images of my own plant but might be able to find an old fashioned photo. It is very difficult to find anyone who stocks it. It is the most beautiful waxy pale lemon colour and I'd love to have it again.

Not the best picture of testaceum but better than nothing! It's in with a group of regale lilies.

Nice, Galanthophile. It might be hard to determine which is which in your photo, so for the benefit of others (and assuming I am correct), L.testaceum is the single flower in the center of the photo with the plump anthers.

Stormyla, the fall before last I planted some pardalinums. I don't remember if they all came up, but none grew to more than 6-12 inches and they died back quickly and did not flower. This year 6 came up (I don't remember if I originally planted 3 or 5), they mostly grew to a couple of feet and one bloomed. It seems they need to get settled in for a while before they grow. My pumilum did bloom the first year, but the cernuums I planted last fall grew to only a few inches this year. I hope this helps.

Thanks, perenniallyme. I'll be looking forward to them next year.

Thanks for the photo Galanthophile.
Perenniallyme, your experience with L. pardalinum is a bit better than mine has been, I have gotten no flowers in the past two years and one has grown to maybe a foot tall, no more. I have one plant which is still growing and green, although only 6-8 inches tall. I have also ordered some more from a different source, which I plan to plant differently, maybe with mulch in the hole, possibly below the bulbs.
I planted the L. philadelphicum, in three different places and in different ways, so we shall see. I also planted L. parryi, L. columbianum and L. amabile v. luteum yesterday, as well as L. canadense and L. hansonii last week. As you an see from the photo, the leaves on the L. philadelphicum come right out of the bulb, which made planting them sort of tricky since they have to be so shallow that the bulb is almost exposed. So far so good though, one has even grown visibly.
David

plntsrok, I forgot to mention my experiences with other species lilies. I planted 3 small columbianum from buggy last year, and they only grew a few inches before dying back fairly quickly. I also planted 1 hanson's lily that never came up and am about to plant a replacement I just was sent. It seems that the species are maybe slower growers than the hybrids. Either that or much smaller bulbs are generally sent. I'd love to get my hands on philadelphicum. I only found them in Canada and didn't want to pay for the phytosanitary certificate. Where did you get yours?