Got up early today and checked the forum out before starting some work. Wanted to "speak out" as i did on a couple of posts about the pruning groups and advice to those new to clems.
The pruning groups are NOT A DIFFICULTY LADDER, and there is no need for someone new to clems to restrict themselves to group 3's. in fact some group 3's can be quite picky and not easy to establish.
Let's face it, the most difficult thing about clems is how long they take to establish. People lose interest after a couple of failures with little liners and how long it is going to take to get the look they dreamed of. most people do not have the time, patience or space for that.
My advice is forget the groups when selecting.
Instead:
Buy as many clems locally as you can when you start...if they are in WELL ROOTED gallons. gallons sold locally are selected for the area and usually proven performers in that zone or area. Buy the gallon and grow it till it is well rooted before you plant it if it is not well rooted.
Next choice,buy the biggest roots you can find by mail order. you are skipping ahead a couple of years by this, as you are with the well rooted gallon.
as you gain some experience, if you are really interested in clems, take advantage of little bargain clems to build your collection if you want and grow them out in pots or ground as your experience and time to care for the plants dictate.
The groups were established to take the difficulty and mystery out of growing clems in the garden....not to add mystery and develop the myth that 3's are what you have to start with. Many 3's are fussy and many 1's are easy in most climates and many 2's the same...there is no "easy guide" within these pruning group guidelines.
the TIME TO ESTABLISH IS THE DIFFICULTY CURVE, some 3's do establish quicker and it is great to get those "thugs" in the garden......but please do not take the good work that the pruning groups have done and add another layer of mystery by making it into a difficultly ladder, which it was not intended for.
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE OR A DIFFICULTY LADDER
As usual your advice is helpful. I am new to gardening, let alone new to clematis but I am finding the less I fret the more I enjoy.
go for it bookreader.......we need to make it simple.....clems are an amazing journey and the more you learn, you realize how simple it is.
AMEN!
CG, this needs to be a separate sticky all on its own. No better advice has ever been given.
Editted to add: I am an experienced gardener, yet I almost tossed the idea of clems altogether after dealing with a couple of little liners and a blue light special from one of the big box stores. I don't have any problem buying those little guys now, but I know what to expect. Buy a few nice varieties with the best roots you can afford, get some experience under your belt, then have fun - they're great plants and very rewarding, but let someone else (the vendor) put in the first few years of nurturing them if you're a newbie. It's not a matter of knowledge or know-how, it's a matter of patience and payoff.
This message was edited Jun 6, 2009 11:50 AM
I had seen in another thread the link for "Clematis for Beginners" which have pruning type 2 and 3.
http://www.clematisinternational.com/cfbeniss20.pdf
bananna - that is always a great list to bring out when new people are looking for suggestions. Not only that, it's a great list for anyone regardless of their experience with clematis.
It has helped me narrow the searches.
mocatmom. thanks for your feedback...i am really feeling like we are taking folks off track to build fear and make the p groups into some type of intimidation ladder. they are simple and necessary and have done a lot for clems. we need to keep ti at that and get more folks growing good roots and getting in to clems the right way vs the sloooow way!
lets garden hard!
CG - excellent advice - when I started with Clems I had no clue and no fear - have I made some mistakes, oh absolutely, have I planted in the wrong places, absolutely - I just replace and keep going - the joy of gardening is exactly that - joy of gardening! I learned quickly "you get what you pay for" and have also learned that if one bites the bucket, another can and will take it's place - that being said, thanks for all the advice that the "guru's" have posted here, I have read, I have learned and now have 'my own way' of gardening - no rules, no fears, only joy and peace!
Bec, appreciate your message.....getting others into the enjoyment zone of gardening, and out of the fear based "i can'ts" is a great misson and does the planet good.
i have been thinking about this off and on over the weekend and can think of so many examples of 3's that are tricky and 1's and 2's that are easy, seems like a new clem person should grow one of each in the beginning for their learning curve vs feel there is a difficultly ladder.....i may post some recommendations along those lines once i get some garden chores completed!!!
CG, I think that is a great idea. Nothing takes the place of experience and I know I have to make my own mistakes and learn from them. But, being able to learn from you and the experience you have gained the last number of yrs from growing clems has been great. I hope you know how much we beginners appreciate your help and your patience.
I was sitting here thinking how wonderful it would be if you published your own clematis book!!!! PLEASE don't take that suggestion the wrong way. I can only imagine your reaction to this, as busy as you are. But what a beautiful book it would be. Just think! We would have gorgeous photos of your clems and lots of tips and advice for growing (including a chapter on pruning.) Would certainly be a best seller. Then, I wouldn't have to annoy you with all my questions!
I think that the clem Sticky would be a good place for the recommendations you were referring to, especially along the lines of pruning.
Thank you for the advice. I am starting with clematis on the beginner's list especially the vigorous, small flowered varieties. I am taking careful notes on the ones that do well in my zone (like Guernsey Cream) and the ones that are difficult to establish. Between black walnut juglone poisoning and budget grafted roses, I have removed too many dead plants the past two years. I am doing my research to, hopefully, have a lower plant mortality rate and more floriferous garden. Of course, I am keeping my eyes open (an my list handy) during trips to the garden center.
I am so grateful to everyone on this list for sharing their expertise and inspiration!
I was searching a little on the net, and went back to this site - it's an excellent site if y'all haven't looked at it before - http://www.clematis.com/html-docs/Guide_002.html - I especially like this part - "It is not absolutely necessary to prune your clematis. It all depends on what you want out of your vine." ^_^
and my alternate advice could be, "you can prune them anytime you want depending on what you want out of your blooms"
fears be gone, grow a healthy plant and blooms will come.
ClematisGuru, you and other members are providing me with much needed clem. info. ClematisGuru, I especially respect your info.
I have a printed copy of the info for beginners in my purse. Have lost too many $$$ buying what doesn't work with my experience. thanks again
confussedlady
thanks confused lady.
are you buying clems locally that do not workout? are you having trouble establishing them, or do the problems come later when the plant is larger? since we are in the same area, would be happy to learn more and comment.
I read an article awhile back and it said that no fuchsia is "hurt" by cutting it all the way back to the ground and that the Groups 1-3 pruning guidelines are established to maximize the productivity and beauty of your clematis, not to provide strict maintenance requirements.
I just got my first two Clematis from Silver Star and am astounded by how beautiful they look. Not a blemish on them.
katie, basically i agree with that completely. strict textbook rarely works in gardening and when you think of a clem and all the different it can perform in, there are needs of the plant you must respond to.
ssv is amazing....people that do not know how good the bigger roots are must be amazed when they get them. welcome to the ssv cult!
When I first started my addiction I bought 3 clematis I knew nothing about because I knew nothing about them in the first place. 2 of those ended up group 2 which I learned about after the fact. Of course I learned how to deal with it and I do them. They are in fact my prized clematis....The President is AMAZING for me( and it is a group 2) I love the colour and growth and size of this plant.
I just find for myself and my climate it is just easier for "me" to deal with group 3's. I love the idea of cutting it all back in the spring - that is just my opinion. However I still buy group 2's if it is something I really want like HF young....I just go with the flow. I don't feel restricted in any way with the groups I just try to go the easier way for myself. LOL Hope that makes sense.
I do admit I learned a whole lot of stuff along the way but it was all enjoyable learning. It is all part of the whole gardening experience. If you enjoy it....do it!
i agree dawn. most of my 2's need a lot of nipping and tucking in the early spring and they respond well. i can not abide a big mess of non growing vines that don't look fresh. if you ever read linda buetler it empowers you to take care of the plant and use your knowledge and not be bound by "textbook".
i am going to a pruning seminar by linda b in july in portland!
free stylepruning.. i will be freestyling a lot of my messy plants by next week i can tell you.....
Ooooh Enjoy that!
Freestyle pruning? Is that how they make those cute animals at Disneyland?
I was very brave last weekend. I used the hedgeclipper for the first time on the "turd" bushes. I am working towards rectangles. Not freestyle, more like don't cut the cord or injure yourself tentative pruning.
if you like topiary get ahold of the dvd called "a man named pearl" about a man in the south show got very into topiary, because of criticism about how me might keep his yard.
it is a mazing story that every gardener can relate to. very good film.
i use a "hedgehog" by black and decker sometimes, it is a shrub trimmer with no cord and very light weight. if you are into shrubs it is a must.
Dawn, I love The President. I was sort of on the fence about that one, but this year it really took off. It has huge blooms, lot of them - I can't believe it. Must have been all the rain and cooler temperatures as most of the clematis have bigger blooms this year.
jj, the harder the winter the bigger the blooms some say. i think that it is true,esp if they ahve had proper fall fertilization.
I never heard that saying before. You could be right, though. I did fertilize in fall last year, and we had a long, hard winter compared to some of the previous years that were shorter and milder.
One thing that is remarkably different is that the group 2s didn't grow very tall this year. We had a very warm spring last year and the vines grew fast and tall.This year, the group 2s plants stayed low, but are blooming nicely. My theory is that there was less sun and cooler temps, so there was less green growth. I really have no idea though, and the only thing that really matters anyway are the blooms.
The viticellas, on the other hand, are doing what they do so well -- Grow, grow, grow. I'm patiently/impatiently waiting to see them blooms their gorgeous head off.
I have several viticellas that I purchased from SSV this year. They are all growing like a weed and look very healthy. No sign of blooms yet, except Etoile Violette, planted 3 or 4 wks ago is already blooming. I notice that the viticellas seem to have more tender, delicate stems and leaves. Is this a common characteristic of this class? Will they ever develop more woody stems like some of my other clems?
sharkey the stems do toughen up and get some wood on the, they will in most cases, be thicker and usually more pliable than some old vines of other clem groups. the vines have to be hardened by age, sun, etc and it takes some time.
i wouldn't expect them to be blooming yet up here in myzone, that said ..i know fla is different.
i got my latest ssv order today in the mail. didn't have planting on the to do list, but luckily i had a few holes left that i have not planted in and will figure it out tonight.
cool your etiole violette is bloooming already.
Julia The President is a great clematis for me. And I noticed in the 4th year that the colour REALLY became vibrant....it was slightly different than it was the first few years....much much prettier. You can't capture the colour with a camera....you just wait and see. I can't wait to see what mine will look like this year....year 5 for me! Yay! I guess it is true what they say - clematis get better with age LOL!!!!
Your right about the color improvement. The color was flat the first few years, but this year is really nice. The color is very similar to Multi Blue, at least it is in my garden.
here is my best president photo, which is used by ssv on their web site ....i was really happy about that.
the color does improve with years. same with polish spirit and many others. this was taken last year.
Yes flat is the word I was looking for...it was sort of a boring blah colour and then it just perked right up into a glorious colour! Love it!!!
Guru that is great to know about the Polish Spirit and other varieties as well......Yippeeeee!!!
Clematis are the best!!!
in clems we trust.....
Oh my C.G what a honor to have your clem.at S.S.V.site...you know she picks the BEST!!!Yours are!!!^_^
ya
That is a beautiful luscious color. It is going on my wish list. You certainly deserve the honor.
right now i am bestotted with my margaret hunt. top top performing clems and the color is so different and beautiful!
BEAUTIFUL!
Well - I don't know what the groups mean. Didn't even know there were 'groups.' You can bet that I will find out tho - just found this thread. I guess I shouldn't have tossed the identification info after the purchase. All these years I've been wacking my few successful vines to the ground because I like it neat all winter.... and the next season..I get big beautiful producing vines.. I thought all clematis behaved this way. That's my story regarding the vines that work.. . Now, I have to consider the others that I have planted recently this season and last that I thought failed because a rabbit or something got to it. I need to poke around the arbor and along the fence lines to see if the vines are there just hiding in the jasmine or something. ... maybe if I look hard they will still be there ...hiding ....waiting to bloom in a year or two.
Clem G Purchased from the box stores. Put them in the compost pile
this spring. I can't thank you enough for this thread, just wish you would
write a book. Now I know to order from SS nursery or buy the best at local nurseries.
Thanks' again, confussed