Ramona, my 1st clematis, contradictory pruning info, help?

I bought Ramona 6/11/08.

The tag said: In late Feb or March, cut back to 2 strong sets of buds on each stem close to ground level.

The employee said: not necessary to cut it back; leaving the old dead growth just makes its climbing easier.

The internet said: Group 2 for pruning, i.e. in early spring you should cut back the vines 6 or 8 inches to the nearest pair of strong leaf axil buds.

The internet also said: Pruning can be Group 2 or Group 3, although a hard prune (Group 3) will result in a loss of early flowers. Group 2 pruning instructions: Prune lightly above the new leaf buds in early spring, and remove any dead or weak stems. Early flowers appear on old wood while late summer flowers appear on new growth.

I did read somewhere that there can be a problem with no flowering at the bottom, and my trellis is only 5 feet tall, which leads me to think a hard pruning might help keep it flowering over all of this little trellis. But a daylilly is in front of it, so I don't need the Ramona to flower on the lower 12-15 inches.

But all in all I am very confused. It just started to leaf out this week. What on earth should I do?

pinch out the top of this beautiful clem that has made it thru your hard winter. this will encourage vigorous growth. fertilize and top dress now.
you can hard prune it now if you want, as you planted it last year, most people do this to encourage new shoots and a better developed root system. but pinching it out may be enough, it looks vigorous with many shoots which is a clue it does not need a hard prune.

i have 2 ramonas about 4 and 5 years old. this year, one had no re growth (so i treated it like a P group 3), as of yesterday i hard pruned it. one had growth on old wood, so i let it be (treated it like a mature P group 2).

the plant usually tells you what needs doing i f you visually listen to it.

read linda beutler on "freestyle pruning" for sensible guidelines and thought process on doing whta the plant needs vs being constrained by the "rules"

Guru, thanks for the advice.

Here's another question.

The garden ctr gave me their info sheet on Clematis. Their recommendations include an April annual feeding of: half-cup Sulfate of Potash, ten pounds of composted cow manure, and half-cup of Plant Sure, for one plant. This seems like too much for such a new plant, what do you think?

well i top dress heavily spring and fal land fertilize too at least one before flower buds appear, for some twice. clems are heavy feeders.
this year i top dressed with
manure 1 bag per wheel barrow
nia's posy power half bag per wheelbarrow
bone meal handfuls, 3 or 4
sand, half bag per wheel barrow

this is my first year on bagged manure, i used to use "bumper crop", a master gardener product. the current mix is less expensive and i am having good results.

after all shoots are up, i will top dress the area of the clems with oyster shell or pea gravel or a mix of the two.
i also feed GRO POWER at least once before blooms form. have already fed it once, and will again in two weeks for those any without bloom formation.

will use GRO Power immediately after blooms wane too, in most cases pruning off the last of the blooms (ouch!, but you may get more if you do that)

then fall repeat whole cycle.

i am not sure about the products you mention, but clems are heavy feeders. keep all product off the stems and water in well. do not fertilize after flower bud formation begins but you can top dress at any time with nutrient rich stuff!

I have found that Clematis "Ramona" seems to bloom on both old and new vines and can be treated as an either pruning group 2 or 3 but she is doing fabulously as being treated as a 2 in my zone...she has always bloomed just beautifully for me treating her this way...Jeanne

the winter really beats up the vines up here jeanne. so you have to flex with what the plant is requesting and how it responds with re growth. as example above i have one large ramona this year i had to treat as a 3, but i gave her plenty of time before i did so and one display where there are many layered ramonas with an older ramona that were fine to be treated as a 2. theyare in different garden areas wntirely, and naturally the later will bloom earlier.

also if old vines have a lot of damage, even if they are sprouting, not smart to keep them as the cracks will allow disease to enter the stem. ramona's wood is not as hardy as some thru the winter, all depending on year and how protected the planting is.
i find listening to the plant always brings the right choice vs hard and fast interpretation of the group.

People must treat the plants the best way they will respond in their zone...I've read alot of people with short growing seasons in cold zones don't see much from hard pruning group 2's..Jeanne

my group 2's do fantastic. but you have to clean them up after the winter. and some times there is more clean up (re more damage)than other times. it is a contradiction, but many of the 2's need the full dormancy to flourish and bloom to potential.

Interesting - I didn't know you could treat Ramona as a group 3. If that is the case maybe Ramona would be a better option for my tuteur than HF Young? I was looking for more of a group 3 for my tuteur but I was willing to go with a group 2 to get that lavender colour clematis. Ramona and HF young do seem similar in colour, no? I think so - at least from photo's.

dawn, no they are really different. HF young is the closest to a blue other than durandii, cote de azure, price charles that i have. ramona is more of a saturated lavendar, depending on sun exposure and blooms later in my zone than hf young. i'd say you need them both to have bloom time spread out longer. hf young tends to bloom low for a few years, ramona not necessarily. anywhere there is room for one clem, there is room for 3 i always say!

Attempting to confirm a plan. I have a 15' to 20' class clamatis approved by grower for my zone planted last year following good solid average advise read here. The fifty dollar hole was dug and planted last spring. The rootball was absolutely beautiful at about half the size of a quart milk container. We root pruned lightly when planting. It has produced one runner about three feet and three or four about eight inches or a little more. They are just begining to show leaves. We fed organic 4-2-4 and fish/kelp tea three weeks ago by drenching. At the same time we introduced mycorrhizae of both endo and ecto types not knowing which clematis likes. The arbor is being built as we speak. My plan is to tie up the longest arm and pinch it just above where we tie it off and step back waiting for the other arms to take off. Sometime this summer pinch again. We will maintain modest light teas applications of which we make many backing off to no more feeding after July 15. October 1 is our first frost date.

That's it...............Oh! I will finish the arbor. :) See any bo bo's in the plan please critique.

tell us more about the mycorrhizae?

Doc,
I am also interested in the two types of micorrhizae, We bought a huge bag and a small bag of Plant Sure Plus last year (one for handy use in the garden and the other for reserve supply in garage). This spring the garden center has said that company folded due to incomplete EPA or patent filings or somesuch, and now they are selling an Espoma product, I think it is Bio Tone. That's the extent of my knowledge base.

Apparently there is more to mycorrhizae than that? I need to do some research?

Edited a little while later: Okay, I've started my research-----I see there is a lot I didn't know!

What brand(s) of mycorrhizae products do you like, Doc?

This message was edited Apr 27, 2009 4:28 PM

doc, please enlighten us! in the mean time will start some research.....

http://davesgarden.com/sitewidesearch.php?q=mycorrhizae

and I am interested in a follow-up on this one:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/816243/

This message was edited Apr 27, 2009 5:12 PM

Here's more info, but nothing about the two types of fungi: on www.Rosemania.com, click on "Recommends", then in archive of articles, click on article title "Three Things To Do Now".

This message was edited Apr 27, 2009 5:37 PM

Espoma's product Bio Tone is a powerful offering. There are relatively few fungi know as Ecto Type generally for trees and shrubs. The other is Endo generally used for flowers and garden work. Espoma has added other fine related products such as beneficial bacteria and trace minerals as I recall. One could hardly go wrong choosing this product. Sprinkle just a little in each planting hole. I use an old salt shaker with the holes inlarged to my liking. A small bag of Bio Tone would last me at least two years for my garden and flower planting.

If anyone has acres then possibly another source would indeed be the way to go. Most organic sites now offer different ways to consider using the contents of the Bio Tone package. It is all on the label for all to read.

would you shake this around the soil base of establishing and established clems?

Myke has to be in contact with the roots of the plant. Ive been using it for years- usually when I put in new plants - but must confess I didnt know about the two types - better read some more. It has been heavily marketed around here for some years now. There is one for trees and shrubs and one for perennials, annuals, veggies.
Also see:http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/722/

LariAnn confirms: The Bio-Tone Plus does have viable spores [which are preferable to] chopped up hyphae.

Here is the URL: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/816243/

Yes when one deals with a major company one expects the best. The cheap stuff is just that cheap stuff. Elcheapo and quality do not somehow get in the same bag.

BioTone has both types of fungi of the highest quality. Shelf life is OK for two to three years but plan on refreshing your stock after the second or third year.

One can make a water offering with the product using the water as a carrier. For established plants drive a shovel straight down as if root pruneing, lean on the shovel to open a water runway, pour in the product to get it to the roots of an established plant. Fact.....one fungi spore touching one plant root is the whole innoculation for the year...for that plant.

There are bunches of opinion and facts already on this site. Search a bit here or go to Google for help. My favorite site is Bio-Organics Mycorrhiza.

thanks guys. i am going to consider this for my clems and important shrubs. (box wood hedges primarily)

Glad to hear you consider Espoma to be top-notch. I had the impression it was the best at our local garden center, but wondered if I was just falling for hype. . . Also, the employees at the garden ctr have really talked up mycorrhiza the last couple years, and now that i've done some reading, i see they were 110% correct. I need to make sure I keep a supply of mycorrhiza product in my garden cart and ALWAYS REMEMBER TO USE IT WHEN I AM PLANTING AND TRANSPLANTING. (Hope the "all caps" will serve to imprint this on my brain!)

I am first going to use up my supply of Plant Sure Plus, then I'll be buying the Espoma Bio Tone Plus Mycorrhiza.

The general trend in Mycorrhiza is to add goodies to it. It's mostly a game of one ups man ship and a way to get us to use more of the product. If you have an average surburban property a small amount is good for several years.

I am using Bio Tone because we have shut down our major gardens. I intend to tinker my way out of this world on the edges of the patio and in beds under permanent mulch.

Espoma has both general organic fertilizer and organic fertilizer for acid loving plants. These two products and Bio Tone will raise anyone up to using organic principles.