Suggestions for deep shade under cedar and fir trees

I've got a problem area along the east side of my house. Almost nothing wants to grow there under two giant trees. The right trunk in the photo is a 80' cedar, the left trunk is a 100' Douglas fir.

I've tried and tried to get shade tolerant plants to grow in this area, but so far, not much luck with anything except Oxalis oreganum.....and even that doesn't really want to thrive. Even Pachysandra doesn't want to go. I've amended and amended with compost, nothing seems to help. The problem doesn't seem so much to be the deep shade, but rather, that the two trees suck up every drop of moisture, no matter how much water I pour on.

Any suggestions for something that will fill in the area? Both trees dump tons of trash all winter long, so anything growing there has to tolerate being practically buried over the winter, and love dry-as-a-bone deep shade. It's a part of the garden that no one but me usually sees, so stunning beauty isn't necessarily a requirement. I just don't want it to have the neglected look that it has now. I'm in Seattle, zone 8b. Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

I can't believe living in Seattle you have ANY dry space! My MIL's family was from Seattle, and we have relatives in Port Orchard.

I have azaleas under my bald cypress, but I have the opposite problem. It's actually in the flower bed which gets almost full sun, and I usually have the sprinkler come on every day in the summer. The cypress puts up knees so the tree doesn't drown!

I have a very shady spot in the yard that won't grow anything. We've tried different grasses with no luck. We need to be able to drive the lawn mower over it, so I'm thinking of planting some of the mini (?) mondo grass. It's not very exciting, though.

What about ajuga?

Lynn

Thanks Lynn. I love Ajuga, especially Caitlins Giant. Unfortunately, it needs some moisture, and the trees are big greedy thugs when it comes to sharing. Ajuga just shrivels.

Contrary to popular myth, Seattle actually gets less rain per year that many places in the eastern U.S. Much less per year than New York City, for example. As a matter of fact, we're a Mediterranean climate. Very little rain falls from late May to the end of September. Even though temperatures are usually mild, I have to water all summer long. If you want to see brown lawns, visit Seattle in July, August or early September. We're a city of brown lawns during the summer because most people don't want to pay what it costs to keep a lawn green (Our water and linked sewer rates are very expensive).

What about small shrubs? You would have to water them well at least the first season, but seems like they would put roots down deep enough that they might survive. Other than hydrangeas, which are truly water hogs, the only shrubs I have in the shade are azaleas, gardenias, acuba, two kinds of mahonia, and fatsisa japonica. Could you rig up some kind of drip system to use until they dig their roots in?

How about Epimedium rubrum? It handles dry shade. While it might need some supplemental watering to get established it should do fine.

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/plantfinder/Plant.asp?code=C640
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/62505/

Jamesk - I feel odd making any suggestions to a gardener living in Seattle, but I have several heavily shaded areas in my garden and I'm constantly searching from plants that love dry shade...summer temps over 100 and NO RAIN AT ALL last summer. These do well for me; if you can locate them there, you might want to experiment in the great Northwest!

Texas Betony - semi to full shade - coral red flowers - hummingbird and butterfly magnet
Asparagus Fern, Foxtail Fern and Plumosa Fern all do very well for me in heavy, dry shade and are the backbone of several shade gardens in my yard
Turk's Cap
Ragin' Cajun Ruellia (the only non-invasive ruellia I've found - lovely red flowers return reliably each year
Mondo Grass
Red and Purple flowered daylilies
Cedar Sage
Nandina
Asian Jasmine
Star Jasmine vines and Coral Honeysuckle vines with as few as 2 1/2 hours morning sun
Salvia Greggii in light shade
Jewels of Opar - (somewhat invasive)
Purple Trailing Lantana
Spiderwort
Pink Indigo (lovely pink and white flowers)

All of these plants survived last year's drought, (14 inches of rain with very little supplemental watering - maybe 20 inches TOTAL all of 2008), and have returned this spring.

One more suggestion: The Hosta People will shoot me for this, but it works for me: I have some lovely hostas planted in decorative pots with no drainage holes or blocked drainage holes scattered throughout the shade garden. I hand water these periodically and they seem to grow well for me in their own little miniature swamps. Please - no flames from the Hosta experts...I'm trying to grow plants in Texas and I'm already miserable.

Jamesk, is it possible that rather than the cedar trees taking all of the water, that part of the problem is that the rain never reaches the ground because of the trees? There was an interesting article in one of the recent Garden Gates about a rain garden, where you direct water from your roof to a particular part of your yard. Might be worth looking into.

Mocatmom's suggestions all look good. I have some problems with Asian Jasmine, but I water my beds regularly, so maybe lack of water would tame it somewhat.

Lynn

Finding this thread late but agree with Snapple's recommendation of Epimedium - they're extremely tough plants and can usually handle most anything :) Another suggestion for a plant with your tough conditions is Disporopsis perneyi http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/37100/ - Evergreen Solomon's Seal. We've had this plant growing in the landscape for over 5 years and it's survived tremendous abuse with the two years of severe drought we've experienced. In just a few years it quickly forms a dense groundcover and the evergreen foliage in your zone would be an added plus!

rcn48 - I think I'll have to give the Evergreen Solomon's Seal a try, too. Don't you just love these forums?

Thanks everyone. I've been gone for a few days and returned to find that my February inquiry has been revived. Great suggestions. I've already planted some epimedium, but I think I'll add some Solomon's Seal, too. Who knows, maybe plants are competitive, and I can let them duke it out. The idea of hostas in containers is an interesting one, too. I'm wondering if I buried the containers, if that would prevent the trees from sucking up every ounce of moisture around their roots?

The weather here has finally turned spring-like. Until last Saturday, we were stuck in the 40's during the day with constant rain. After just a couple of warmer and drier days, things are already looking up out there (naturally, the weeds aren't having any trouble thriving!). The Oxalis oreganum looks as though it's finally going to take hold this year, and the Epimedium look fairly happy. I've laid a soaker hose hose down the length of the house, and plan to continue with regular watering this year. My hope is that once things are firmly established, they can hold their own against the trees.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions.

mocatmom, I love the forums but they get me in WAY too much trouble! LOL

James, good luck and keep us posted on your success - sending positive thoughts your way :)

James - I have a mature fir tree with a Magnolia stellata underneath it that provides great architectural interest. The tree has been limbed up 30 feet, though so it's not dark, but it is dry. I have the Magnolia and Nandina domestica under there and they have grown fine with absolutely no water from me since I moved into the house.

Epimedium is a standard for dry shade. You can get away with some other great shade lovers if you provide water to get them established. My SIL has an acanthus growing under her fir tree as well as hydrangeas, ferns, hostas, primroses and hellebores. She says you just need to put a layer of compost/soil down for the plants you're planted and water them for a couple of years so they can get established before the tree takes over that soil.

These groundcovers can be thugs in the garden, but dry shade will keep them in check some: Sedum rupestre 'Angelina', Aegopodium podagraria (Bishop's weed), Lamium galeobdolon 'Archangel' (be careful with this one, though).

Native ground covers: Smilicina racemosa (False Solomon's Seal) or Cornus canadensis (Bunchberry) would look nice. Native shrubs: Vaccinium ovatum (evergreen Huckleberry), or Oemlaria cerasiformus (Indian Plum). I absolutely love the Oemlaria, which is one of the first things to come out in spring. And I can definitely get you starts of it if you ever want to use it.

I'm enjoying all these suggestions as I've just limbed up another couple trees and want to start planting under them. Two small shrubs I'm going to try are the new smaller Leucothoe (look at the 'Curly Red' http://www.planthaven.com/leuccurl.html)and Pieris (especially 'Cavatine', which made it through this last winter in heavy, wet clay and below normal (-14') temps with flying colors).

Kathy

Better late than never, but for me, zone 7-8, hellebores, huecheras, cast iron plant. Any and all cultivars of these have done very well in light to deep shade, bone dry soil, though I do water to get established.

I have salal, oregon grape and golden creeping jenny surviving in deep shade under large rhodies.

Here's a link to a list of plants for dry shade.

http://www.lazyssfarm.com/Inquiring%20Minds/dry_shade.htm

Right now I don't have anything that's dry - water standing in the yard. Have to think of something to put here, but needs to be able to withstand some soggy days

Irwells50 - have you considered Pink-Flowered Indigo? Mine is lovely throughout the spring, summer and fall and doesn't seem to mind whether its feet are wet or dry, just as long as it's in a partially or fairly heavy shaded area. I think it would look beautiful in that area.

I'm not sure which plant you mean - all of the indigo I see says full sun.

I know, but they're lying to us. I have this plant in two areas - one gets morning sun/afternoon shade and the other section is FULL shade all day. I have about 25 plants in the full shade area - they leaf out about 10 days after the semi-shaded section and have the first blooms about 2 weeks behind, but both sections perform beautifully. The blooms look remind me of the delicate hair ornaments worn by Japanese girls at cherry blossom festivals.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/126069/

Irwells50: I think I've solved the mystery. First, the correct name for the variety I grow is 'Indigofera kirilowii - Pink Indigo'. Secondly, KLRU's Central Texas Gardener lists it as a sun-loving plant that simply cannot take full TEXAS sun, (kinda like me, I guess!). They recommend morning sun/afternoon shade or dappled shade all day.

That is VERY pretty.

My indigofera grows on a hillside w/ high tree shade canopy.
Virtually no direct sun. It does fine.

There are quit a few deep shade plants. Some of the things I have in deep shade are:
Fatsia Japonica
Helleborous
Toad Lily
Bears Breeches
Columbine
Winter Green ( ground cover)
Mondo Grass (ground cover)
Geranium
Begonia
Turk's Cap
Azeleas
Solomon Seal
Jacob's Ladder
MayFlower
Trillium
Camelia
Dogwood
Calycanthus
Mahonia
Fern

I like the idea of the indigo, how long does it bloom? It is SO green and dark in that area, I had thought about some mostly-white hostas, but that's as far as I'd gotten.

Using my dry shade area as a guide, the first blooms started about three weeks ago and they're still hanging in there. The first blooms on the semi-shaded plants started earlier and have just finished. They tend to take a brief rest, then bloom again in cycles until around mid-October when the nights start to cool down. The blooms are actually pendulous bunches of small pink and white bi-toned flowers.

How tall do they get?

The specs say 2' to 3' tall - The only one I have that approaches that size is the one I purchased in a 1 gallon pot. The rest of them - about 25 plants - are all the result of mere sticks gathered from a neighbor and stuck in the ground about 3 years ago. Those are 18" to 22" tall and 2' wide. They take on a nice full low-rounded shape, but make a distinctly airy impression.

Sounds perfect, I'll look into it.

Hi Jamesk,

I have the same garden dilemma. I have 3 large cedars in the front of the house that suck any moisture out of the soil. I did a full bed soil amendment a few years ago only to find the cedar roots grew up through the amended soil and choked out some plants. Part of the bed gets morning sun so I worked with drought tolerant plants there and it actually works in my favour for winter hardiness. I really wanted to re-dig the whole bed this year and use landscape fabric to put a layer between the roots and the amended soil but ran out of time. The epimediums should do great. I've had success with Hellebores (H. angustifolia & nigra).

Part-sun location: Melianthus major (died this winter but easy replacement), Euphorbias (most), Iochroma australe, Opuntia fragilis (Texada Island collection), Illicium anisatum (currently blooming and looking great), Senecio/Brachyglottis 'Sunshine' (got nailed back this winter), Macleaya cordata, Phygelius capensis and Garrya elliptica James Roof.

Full-shade: Aspidistra elatior, Polystichum munitum, Orixa japonica (takes full shade, roots, drought very well), Lonicera nitida Red Tips (not as red as in part sun but very tolerant of location), Saxifraga stolonifera (starting to groundcover), Bergenia (once established, they do extremely well in full shade and look better than anywhere else in the neighbourhood), Polygonatum, Euonymus fortunei Emerald & Gold and Euonymus fortunei Emerald Gaiety (trained up trunks), Adiantum pedatum (for a heavier moist spot), Ginkgo biloba, Elaeagnus pungens Maculata (can tend to revert but still tough enough) and a few others.

Lack of summer water is the toughest part of the year for most of the plants as the cedars take almost every drop. Annuals don't work at all. Hope this helps.

Great, Irwells50 - I still owe you for all your help to me with my rose selections.

This message was edited May 14, 2009 8:39 AM

Wow, Growin, That was fabulous. Some good selections there for under my piggishly thirsty Maples. I covered them with 4 " of composted leaf mold, 3" of mushroom soil and another 4" of freshly shredded leaves. This fall, I'm thinking of broadcasting soaked polymer crystals before I add soil amendments.

My bed is right along side of a very busy road, so between the road wind and the maple roots, the soil gets so dry it has the texture of fine grit. We get in excess of 55" of rain here a year.

Growin - Thanks for the list. You had a number of plants that I hadn't thought of. The Orixa japonica is one that I'll definitely try. I haven't had much luck with Bergenia cordifolia, but Bergenia ciliata looks like it's going to eventually take off. Saxifraga stolonifera is definitely worth a try too. Oxalis oreganum I planted two years ago, also looks as though it's going to finally catch on -- so I'm hopeful. Anyway, thanks for your many good ideas.

Orixa has done well for me.
I have both the species and the 'aurea' cultivar.
Both easy growers and both have fresh-looking shiny foliage,
which is nice to see in the wilt of mid-summer.
But other than foliage, nothing special about the shrub.

You could probably find the Orixa & Illicium at Colvos Creek Nursery where I got mine. Weerobin - the one special thing about Orixa that I found out is that it's tough as nails. The plant at Seattle Arboretum is in a full shade location with lots of tree roots. Here's a pic of my front garden and actually the Sambucus nigra Aureomarginata is doing fantastic and I think it might do well in an even tougher spot. The roots go right under the rock wall and fill in the front garden. Most of this garden gets zero sun. Most of it was trial and error and I realized the right side is contaminated from a fire in the apartment building next door from 1927. They must have shoved all the debris off the top and when the neighbour suggested this, I started amending the soil and found lots of burned stuff and melted glass. The Ginkgo does well there and you can see the difference in the cedars as they were all planted at the same time. I love Oxalis oreganum but look for the pink form. Keep it in check as it can take over. The one thing that I forgot is that the hardy geraniums seem to do pretty good in a bit of sun.

Here's the inside garden that gets a bit of sun. I stuck the Heuchera Caramel in there the other day with the Cordyline Torbay Dazzler as I hope the lack of water will help it get through winters better. The lush green one with small white flowers is the Illicium and it really does far better than I ever expected in mostly shade. The large Orixa is behind. I stuck in a few variegated Pachysandra and they're doing ok amongst the green. In figuring out what works, I did loose a fair number of plants either by cedar roots or lack of water.

Growin' - in post 5117, what's the plant with round leaves in the front (you have 3 of them)?

Those are Bergenia but I'm not sure which one. Someone gave me a box of them and they are very happy. I think they really like being in a cool spot. As there is little or no sun except in the early morning, the area is relatively cool during the summer and protected in the winter with the large cedars overhead. It's actually a long row of them that extends from one end to the other.

Yes, it looked to me like Bergenia, but different than what I have. I've seen Bergenia in Seattle in baking sun with no shade. Actually that's where I first saw it several years ago. I have some in clay soil that sits in water through freezes. It's incredibly tolerant of different conditions. I guess it comes from the mountains of Tibet, so it must like the cold. Mine are blooming more this year than ever (exept the ones that sat through the heavy clay - they're all leaf).

I may try some under my cedar. Getting lots of good ideas here.