Companion Planting Wanabees

Fed up with the debate? Anybody who wants to swap a bit of good ol' fashioned advice, common sense or just plain old wives tales with a view to starting a Companion Planting forum please join in now.
:-)) Rosie

Edited to say - We came from here http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/897993/



This message was edited Feb 14, 2009 5:46 PM

I thought I would try the three sisters method with corn beans and squash. Actually I was thinking cucumber instead of squash. Anyone tried this?

I haven't tried this yet wthex but I wouldn't mind giving it a go. I hear you plant the bean, corn and squash (or cucuber) in the same hole. Is this right? When does your planting season start?
:-)) Rosie

Yes. That is right.
I normally start my tomato seed in April then as soon as I can get those in the ground they go.

Then I believe its good Friday the potato seed goes in the ground.

The three sisters method sounds like it should work. I will find out this season.

rosie, I've grown 3 Sisters gardens several times. No, you don't put all those seeds in the same hole but rather in the same grouping, i.e., picture a circle with corn in the middle, beans planted so they grow up the stalk (and usually planted when the corn stalk is 6-12" high) and squash plants on each side of the corn stalk ( especially if this is all done in row fashion). Each plant still requires an adequate root zone; planting them all in the same hole will encourage root competition, root lock-up, and stress.

You need to remember though that the NA's grew a very sturdy field-type corn (large thick stalks) rather than corn like today's "sweet corn". Most corn varieties today will easily lodge in a harsh wind and if it is supporting large bean vines they will surely go down. (It's a mess wading thru all those downed cornstalks searching for beans, and very time-consuming. Ugh.)

So, just something to keep in mind as ya'll venture into 3 Sisters. Of course now, also keep in mind that those crops were mainly grown for Winter use and were long-season crops. Corn was often left to dry (for meal), beans were not only left to dry for seed stock but also for their winter food larder, and the "squash" was most often pumpkins and Winter squashes for Winter storage (as opposed to zucchini and/or other Summer squashes) .

Hope this helps. And this was an excellent idea to start this thread and "get down to business" regarding your hope for a CP threads/forum.

Shoe

Oh good a voice of experience! ;-)

I think part of the logic behind the 3 Sisters is that the beans are nitrogen fixing so help nourish, and the squash would work as a living mulch keeping weeds away....... but very good info to remember about the cultivars used in traditional systems cause so often various properties are different from more modern varieties.

I did have a neighbor once who had a lovely companionship going between a big sunflower and a morning glory. Now, this was only an aesthetic situation -- well, except that the sunflower provided the trellis -- but I will always remember how beautiful that was.

Thanks Rosie for starting the thread.

Kyla

I started a similar thread in the vegetable forum. It has gotten a bit of attention but not enough. Thanks for this one.

Sweet corn is a heavy feeder that takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil so it makes sense to plant beans with it. One of the best beans for securing nitrogen is our own (I mean here in the Northern hemisphere) broad bean .They are traditionally left in the ground to rot down and have been for centuries without anyone really knowing why. Now it emerges that they have copious amounts of nitrogen contained in the little nodules that make up part of their root system - can't remember what they're called LOL.
I love the idea of the sunflower and morning glory Kyla - I bet they look awesome. And since sunflowers have a duel purpose - they are aesthetic as well as nutritious - I wonder what else could be planted with them?
I'm hoping to start my pak choi next month but there's precious little information about what to plant with Chinese brassicas. I guess they can be treated like any other plant in the cabbage family but does anyone know of a good companion plant for them?
I didn't think to look in the veg section Katie but will after this post.
wthex and Horseshoe or anyone else who fancies the idea, how about a race to see who can grow the best 3 sisters - an experiment if you like? I can't see myself being able to go the traditional Native American route as we only have a limited growing season in this neck of the woods but I can improvise with a couple of newer strains which grow well in these climes.
OK Horseshoe, I promise not to throw all my beans into the one hole LOL. Just something I read which is obviously not true!






This message was edited Feb 15, 2009 8:20 AM

Just had a look at the veggie forum Kathy - actually I think it has a good amount of interest. How about you post a link there for this forum and I'll do the same here for that one? That way we may get a few extra votes. LOL

Just for veggie growers - the same thred but different. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/945995/


This message was edited Feb 15, 2009 8:48 AM

Sure I am always in for a little conspiracy among friends. LOL

A girl after my own heart :-))

Are these threads listed on the request thread in DG forum? They like to see a good number of threads...

How do you make garden plans with MS Word? I have some old plans I made with Appleworks but couldn't figure out how to duplicate them in Word. I even downloaded a garden plan program but am having trouble making it do what I want, which is to give me rows and movable varieties for rotations from year to year.

For squash, I have battled borers and squash bugs for years. This past summer I planted garlic by the rows where I planned to put my zucchini and grew Greyzini, among others, which is so prolific that I actually got plenty of squash for a longer time than ever. At the same time I used silver plastic mulch, to deter the beasties, and nasturtiums, which have never been enough to guarantee me some veggies but maybe help. Row covers until the plants blossom also make a difference, but I didn't use them this past year. So - was it the garlic, the nasturtiums, the silver mulch? I have also used radishes but they didn't seem to do the trick; maybe if I planted them in combination with some of the other measures...

I have been wondering about raspberries and tomatoes. This past summer my rotation plan placed the tomato tripods (à la French potagers) next to the raspberry beds, and neither did very well, although the tomatoes in the next row farther away were fine. I grew Marmande and was totally underwhelmed, maybe because of the raspberry neighbors. I have wondered whether there's an antipathy between those two but haven't been able to find anything about it on the web.

I always interplant my tomato tripods with basil, marigolds, and - just for the color - Victoria Blue salvia. Since I've never experimented I don't know if they make a difference but everything seems healthy in that combination.

I haven't found anything except rotenone that allows my eggplants to shrug off flea beetles long enough to become productive, and I hate using it. I haven't tried beans.

Leslie

Grownut what do you mean? Or am I being thick again? Oh, do you mean requests for new forums?
Leslie, tomatoes are commonly grown as a companion plants to basil or do I mean vice versa?
Have you tried small mints such as pennyroyal to deter flea beetle? It's not too invasive.
:-)) Rosie

Rosie -I just tried an answer but on the other thread!! Uurggghh. One place to look would be sooo nice. My bok choy (nappa)(pak choi) whatever! gets munched relentlessly by flea beetles every single year. Same as the eggplant. Have you heard of any flea beetle deterrent for/ from brassicas? Size, density and sweetness have been great -would have been beautiful without the beetle holes. They've frequently ended up beside tomatoes....

Back and forth we go -ring around the....Stopping NOW!! The CP request thread is what I was referring to. Perhaps start a new one (request thread) to continue the discussion and list all the threads we have going in all the different forums? I believe the accepted protocol is to flog them (admin) with our volumes of discussion about companion planting. MAKE them chase us off into our own corner because we're talking so much in other places... :-)

On the small mints -I try to stick with thing I know how to use and have NO idea what to do with pennyroyal...other than aromatic stepping stones...?!

So the wheel is not squeaking enough to get greased?

That's what I got from it! LOL. Getting the pottery and relateds forum was much that way...once we had shouldered everyone out of the Artisans forum it became an obvious call...either give us our own spot or we'll take over someone else's!! I think we may have about 6 threads going now...if everyone knew where to check and get talking we could talk about more than just getting a place to talk...not that we aren't but it IS hard to keep track.

I didn't know that pennyroyal would be helpful. Is that a perennial? I move my veggies around to avoid pests, although I don't know how much that helps. We usually steer clear of mints because they do take over.

Leslie

I was half hoping the tomato/bok choy/basil thing might work...garlic chive sound very good as well but I'd rather have them in my perennial/ re-seeding garden...

Yes, Leslie it's perennial but doesn't run wild and if it was going to it would run wild here especially as we are soooo damp - just the right climate for mint havoc! I don't get flea beetle (maybe cos I got loads of pennyroyal LOL) but I have heard some who do say this is a good deterrant. It's mainly ornamental for sure although I have heard of brave souls who use it for medicinal purposes - and interestingly as an insect repellant topically. It can cause fatal organ damage if ingested so BEWARE! But lets not get carried away - more people are poisoned by mistaking daffodil bulbs for onions in this area than were ever poisoned by pennyroyal.
I posted a thred in roses forum Grownut. As for pak choi I mean to sow really early this year as I only had a small crop last year ( 1st year of growing them) due to bolting - apparently they are prone to it, being cool weather plants. You would think it was cool enough in Ireland but no!

"OK Horseshoe, I promise not to throw all my beans into the one hole LOL"
Sounds like a new saying, kinda like us 'putting all our eggs in one basket'.

Regarding fava beans (broad beans) I LOVE Windsor beans! Isn't that what ya'll usually grow over there? They grow thru the Winter here unless we get down to extended stays in the teens or something. And yes, here, too, the plants are left to rot/decay to put the N in the soil. Speaking of N and corn, by the way, corn doesn't benefit from the N that the beans fix (in the 3 Sisters system) because the N is only put back into the soil when the bean plants die and/or are turned under.

"One place to look would be sooo nice. " Grownut, just remember that even if (when!) there is a dedicated forum that there will still be different threads within that forum to bounce around in! I'm all over the place on DG and have the same problem, trying to remember what forum to post answers in. (Er, uh, maybe it's my old mind that is causing the confusion!) :>)

Just a quick input on flea beetles, once eggplant is up in size (18" to two feet) flea beetles tend to leave it mostly alone. To help get them up to size dusting with wood ash will certainly help. If you don't burn wood during the Winter then dusting with talc also helps. (I buy the cheapest I can find, usually Johnson's Baby Powder or the like. Most brands contain only talc, some contain talc, a perfume, aluminum. I steer away from the ones w/aluminum. The ones with fragrance I also use in the Fall on my brassica as it tends to keep the deer from nibbling them.) Ya'll should give it a try sometime, especially on your eggplant.

Okay, off to sow some seeds in the g-house.
Hope all of you have a great day!

Shoe

Great tip on the wood ash!! We heated with wood in the recent power outage so no problem there. And Shoe -as long as I know where I'm bouncing (LOL) I stand a snowball's chance...

Rosie -in more temperate areas they (bok choy) go in spring and fall. Though there are some varieties designed for summer -we got the wrong kind last year and they bolted, messed up both seasons...sigh. And light frosts don't bother them so if you were able to put them out early and throw down a little straw til they have 4-6 leaves...

This is good. I was wondering about the timing for each seed.

Rose, how close does the pennyroyal have to be to the eggplant, I wonder, since I rotate my veggies every year. That could be a problem....

Well I don't grow my pennyroyal that close to anything Leslie. It just sort of scrambles around about a foot or two from my raised beds. Although it doesn't appear to be invasive here, it does tend to have an untidy habit and looks more like a wild thing than a cultivated plant, although the flowers are really pretty so I don't mind it doing its "own thing". Last year I already had them planted near a raised bed about 2 feet from an early crop of potatoes followed immediately by cauliflowers - neither got anything nasty and I was worried that the caulis might get savaged by caterpillars as is usual in my area but although they got a few they didn't get anything like as many a some of my neighbours. I also had wild fennel at the back of the bed which attracts preditory insects so this may be another reason I had such a good crop despite the inclement weather of 2008.
I also practice crop rotation but I'm not particularly scientific about it. My gardening tends to be more of the container kind or raised bed variety due to the waterlogged soil in my in law's family garden and the fact that I only moved to my new place last November. My garden is still a work in progress LOL.
I don't find pennyroyal to be problematic at all. If I want to move it I just dig it up and it doesn't (usually) leave any little bits from which whole swathes of greenery emerge - unlike every other forms of mint I know. If I have one complaint its that when it dies - which it sometimes does for no apparent reason - it leaves behind really tough stems and roots that are a devil of a job to remove from in between slabs or paths. It's much better to move when its in active growth I find.
The reason I have so much of it is because I didn't seem to come to grips with the fact that 200 seeds make 199 little plants. I just thought there's no way all these seed will germinate ........WRONG! LOL.
Grownut I'm finding out about oriental veg very slooowly. Last year I bought small plants from my local supermarket (they were going cheap in the cut and come again stir fry section) but it was well into April then. I figure they need to be sown in situ in early March here so that they don't bolt. I've seen them growing through snow so I guessed they were really hardy.

Quite possibly -what zone are you in again? They are really far hardier than most give them credit for and the cold sweetens them.

I'm about an 8. Chinese veg is a relatively new phenominum here so it's a bit of trial and errror.

Shoe, and others, I have tried the 3 sisters kind of planting and like Shoe said our typical corn now is really too unstable in wind to support beans. So this year I am going to try putting a length of reinforcement rod or some other strong support, maybe a taller metal fence post into the soil when I plant corn seed. Then hopefully the corn tied to the support post will also support the bean vines.

I also enjoy seeing volunteer morning glories climbing up the corn stalks and the sunflowers.

Donna

OK....I'm a litle confused (but that's my normal state anyway). Are we voting for a Companion Planting forum here? or somewhere else? I vote YES. There are a number of books devoted to companion planting, so you know the subject is popular and important to gardeners. I'm all for helping starving authors in these tough times, but think how much $$$ the rest of us would save if we didn't have to shell out $25. to $40. on books when the info we need could be shared right here on Dave's Garden.

There are companions for aesthetics, and companions for enhanced growth and pest deterrents. I vote for both subjects under one roof.

Hi winterrobin, yeah, it is a bit confusing. To register your active interest in a new forum, you can go here:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/897993/ and post that you want one -- if you have not already.

This thread got started to just begin (or continue) the conversation about companion planting among us.... rather than talking about talking about it all the time. ;-) But also I believe the feeling is the more active conversations on the topic there are, the more likely the creation of a forum "home" for those conversations......

winterrobin,

The answer to your question regarding the vote is yes, in a sense.

The best way to vote is to talk about the subject content and not necessarily about whether we want a CP forum. There is some chatter about that here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/897993/

That thread sort of goes back and forth on that subject. Some of us moved to this thread to actually talk about our experiences with Companion Planting.

Very good question though and I believe we all appreciate your vote of confidence.

OOPS! Kylaluaz - you beat me to it.... :)


This message was edited Feb 16, 2009 6:39 PM

It is not just a matter of saving money by not having to buy books. At DG we have a unique opportunity to chat with folks all over the world and learn what actually worked for them and what didn't. Many have tried things that are not in books. Many folks do things that were taught to them by their parents or grandparents. Sometimes they know the reason and sometimes they do not. Even if there is no known reason, I would love to find out that every time someone planted purple petunias next to their tomatoes the yield doubled and the tomatoes weighed 10 pounds apiece. Now that is a companion plant!
Here at DG folks share knowledge gleaned from books and from practical experience.

I don't have generations of gardeners behind me. They were all city dwellers. My grandmother managed to grow 1 peppermint and 1 basil plant in her "yard", if you can call it that. The only companion they had was the concrete driveway next to them. That's why I've relied on books. But the costs accumulate.

I've been a member here for a while, and usually hang out on the Roses forum. If I want practical advice on other plants to mix with my established rose bushes, I do a search, and there are so many places to look .....will my answer be under Organic Grdening, Herbs, Annuals, Foliage Plants, Cottage Gardening? Will the answer be found in Plant Files? I want to start a vegetable garden again, too. Do carrots really love tomatoes? Who's tried it? Will I have to search under Beginner Vegetables, Herbs, Tomatoes, Peppers, etc., etc. ?

With Spring not far away, I have raking to do, seeds to start, soil to prepare, transplanting chores to accomplish. I want to spend less time at the computer searching, and more time outside. It would be great to have a companion planting forum where you know where to look and where to ask, all in one place. So, off I go to the link above to register my humble opinion. Thanks, all.

Thank you winterrobin. That is what we need. It will help if anyone who has an interest in this subject to post at http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/897993/ and state your desire to have a companion planting forum.

Welcome aboard winterrobin. I'm with you about the cost of reading material and of course if you do want to study a certain gardening method that's usually the first port of call. That's why we definately need a forum dedicated to CP here on DG.
Anyway, I daren't let my other half loose in an online bookstore - he would bankrupt us. I'm sure that not only does Amazon remember his details but their on first name terms with him.
That's a good point kathy and kyla - I'll just go back and add that peeps need to register their interest on the Dave's forum original thred.
Oh I forgot to add - come back here after winterrobin LOL. I need to pick your brain.

:-)) Rosie



This message was edited Feb 17, 2009 8:20 AM

Winterrobin, you're reminding me that I have the same things to do in my garden, and these days with their milder temperatures are making it call to me.

I notice that you say you're in Zone 7b; I assumed I was in 7a but I'm only a few miles north of you. How did you decide on your Zone? And welcome to another South Jerseyan!

winterrobin, my SIL has ordered a Gallica rose for me - don't ask me what variety as it's supposed to be a secret but I'm led to believe it's a soft pink in colour. I always use to plant garlic chives and/or marigolds round my roses to keep the enemy at bay but due to the colour of my (secret ) rose I'd rather not use marigolds. I have recently found out that some people use nigella (love in a mist) as a companion around roses and not only for aesthetic purposes but they also deter many insect pests. I have never heard this before have you? If this is true I am going to grow it all round my new rose as I just love this little blue flower - the seeds are great in bread making too.

Oh my gosh, greenhouse gal...Port Elizabeth! I can walk to your neighborhood. Well, maybe when I was 20 I could. Zone 7b was automatically assigned to me at Dave's, maybe because I didn't enter one myself. The National Arboretum's new zone map says I'm really in Zone 8, what with global warming. I find that hard to believe. Do you find that some of your plants struggle more with our summer heat and humidity than with any pest on the planet?
roseimp, you will LOVE your Gallica, no matter which color it is. I have Belle de Crecy, a gorgeous rich dusty mauve/purple with deep forest green foliage. The fragrance will delight you. No, I've never heard of Nigella as a pest deterrent, but that's why I'm here, wanting to learn stuff like that. One year, I had dark blue, light blue and white Nigella planted with a red/silver China rose. I loved the combination. Thanks for the reminder of how pretty Nigella is. I think I'll plant it again this spring.
kathy, I did go to the link to register a "yes" vote. Our combined efforts just might pay off.

For the past few years I have been growing veg in my DIY earth boxes. Do you think the 3 Sisters method would work in one of them? I usually grow Sweet Million cherry tomatoes, zuchs and peppers which all turn out great, especially the tomatoes.