Hardscaping help

Can you help me with the following, or direct me to the right forum or website?

We are having a trench dug through our yard so we can lay electrical lines in our backyard for lighting and so we don't have to drag extension cords all over the place when we use power tools. I was thinking of laying water pipes as well. Then a friend suggested just laying an empty pipe, and thread a regular hose through it. That way we can replace the hose if ever needed without re-digging the trench. I like that idea, and thought I'd put in a second hose for redundancy.

I don't want to put in an irrigation system. We had one priced once and it was breathtakingly expensive -- plus for all the digging I do and moving of plants, I would find the buried lines annoying.

I wondered if you had thoughts on these plans -- or if you have other suggestions as to ways we can take advantage of the trench while it is still open. We only want to do this once!

Is it legal to lay water line next to electrical line? Might want to check with your electrician.

If it is, I'd go ahead and put in the water lines. Even if you don't need them now, you might later.

If you line the pipes with hose, keep in mind you're going to have to make sure there is a way to make sure they are always drained in winter. Otherwise they'll split inside the line. I'd make sure the pipe was plenty big enough that if the hose does split, it won't get caught in the line.

Thanks -- good suggestions, all.

Happy, I'll have Ric look at this later, he may have some ideas for you.

I've got a PVC pipe running under my side patio, so I can thread a hose through it to the little bed on the outer edge. I run hoses out to the edge of the bed (just buried the hose in most cases, but if I'd been thinking I'd have trenched in a PVC pipe instead so the hose could be easily replaced by connecting the new one to the old one and just pulling it through), and then I connect drip irrigation lines or soaker hoses to the regular hoses. Many of the lines are connected to programmable valves at one end of the house, and I can't tell you how wonderful it is to be able to water auto-magically!

That's my goal -- to get it set up to work even a tiny bit automatically. Because our property is on a hill, when I don't forget to water (which is most of the time) I overwater -- it is very hard to get the level just right. That is one of the challenges I plan to face this season.

Holly: I'd be grateful for Ric's input!!!! Wow!!!

Jill: Thank you! How did you protect the opening of the pvc pipe where the hose comes out? I was thinking that'd get filled with mud. And do you take the hoses in for the winter, or leave them out (obviously, the latter would be my preference).

This message was edited Jan 12, 2009 3:42 PM

I've been leaving all my hoses out. They're mostly connected to soakers or to drip lines with auto-draining ends, so they don't burst in winter. My pvc pipe might well be getting full of mud, but probably not too badly, as the ground falls away from it a bit where it emerges so that soil isn't washing into the opening.

You do have to take in sprayer ends on hoses (they'll freeze and break) and make sure hoses can drain somehow. Hoses that are buried are protected from UV, and that probably helps prolong their life.

Hmm. I put my sprayer ends in a shed where they will freeze, but I figured it didn't matter since they'd dry out. Do you think I need to keep them inside where it is warm? I had one break last year that I left outside, so it is clear that won't work.

I think as long as they're completely dry, it doesn't matter if they freeze... but my experience has been that if there's any water inside them, freezing can break something in the mechanism, at least for those adjustable-spray dial ones.

Are you talking about the nozzles that go on the end of the hose, or the stationary sprayers that sit in the garden and throw up a huge fountain of water?

I'm talking about nozzles... every year, I forget to bring at least one of them in before it freezes, and in spring I end up replacing it.

I think the same thing probably holds true for any type of hose end attachment... If you release the pressure on it and let it dry out, it should be fine, but if there's water in the mechanism, then freezing can damage it due to expansion.

I bet I still have some outside -- I'll bring them in.

Happy, In most areas, you cannot put electric and water in the same conduit.However you can put them in the same ditch. Depending on the distance the wire you use should be one size over what is needed. An example would be: if you needed an AGW14 you put in AGW12, be sure you get direct burial cable, the type would be UHF at the minimum. As to water, can you drain it? Or blow it clear with air? My son, Jamie, "the ultimate plumber" recommends using ABS pipe, in a sealed conduit {such as 3 inch PVC "glued"} ABS is tough and can freeze. The reason you glue the buried pipe is to prevent infiltration of sediment. Usually the only damage is the fittings push out, which are easily repaired. If you thread a hose you can pull it as needed and make a rope to pull along through so you can re-pull the hose the next season. Hope this has given you a few new options. Ric

Awww, Ric, you are my hero. A million thanks. This is incredibly helpful. Thank you SO MUCH. I wouldn't have known any of those good ideas. Holly is so lucky! You are the best! (And Holly, thanks for sharing!)

Happy, FYI, there are some great old posts on the design forum related to landscape lighting that might interest you. Deviant Deziner is a GREAT person to ask this sort of question of, among many others. I'll see if I can unearth some of the classics for you.

Here's a fantastic thread on Landscape Lighting, etc.: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/689436/

I can't wait to see what you're doing to your place!


This message was edited Jan 13, 2009 4:28 PM

I leave my hoses out all winter As big as this place is, I have hoses strung out all over to water various gardens. But at the end of fall, I make sure they're all running downhill, unhook them from the water supply and make sure they're drained.

Sprayers and even the multiple outlet things for water will break if they freeze and there's any water in them at all. Most of them have plastic parts inside that will split, even the ones that are brass.

I also make sure I turn off the outside water tap in the basement, leaving it open outside so the pipes can drain.

Happy, make sure you check with your electrician on the zoning laws just to be in the safe side. They're different in each jurisdiction.

Hart: The electrician will do the work so I'm sure he'll comply with code; we've just had the trench dug. But I want to make sure the electrician doesn't take any shortcuts, and that I think of everything I might possibly do before I close up the trench. The only part of the trench not dug is a strip about 15' x 1' that has various plants in it -- most are marked but not all. I am going to dig them up myself but I'm so worried I'll kill one. Really, I'm quite disproportionately distracted about this!

Wrightie: Thanks for the link. I am very very very interested. I am going to sink my teeth into that thread tonight.

Happy sounds like this is going to be a really good project. I had an underground electric line put in last summer that ran from my lamppost to my arbor. It was so great to get rid of that green extension cord that laid out in the yard and got hit by the mower all the time. I'm getting really tired of dragging hoses around in the summer, too. Glad Ric could help, looked like you had already got a lot of good advice and ideas. Holly

I believe all projects of this nature should be put in using the available codes. There should be a work or project permit and you should be sure the political body inspects the job as this is part of the permit price. Why? We live in a mobile society. If you do not do this and be sure your are right you may have to do it later to sell the house. If you plan for a rental or transfer of ownership even within family the codes in many areas must be met first.

Doc: I fully intend to comply with code -- I don't know what gave the impression that I was trying to skirt the code. I'll have electricians do the electrical work, and plumbers the plumbing. But in my experience, I have learned that sometimes you can make suggestions to the tradespeople that will improve the finished project and extend its lifespan. For example, Ric pointed out that I should request electrical wiring that is one size over what is needed. That never occurred to me -- but I now I know to direct the electricians to use wire that is one size over what they would have used. Depending on the cost, I may also ask them to include a second wire for redundancy.

So I'm just trying to figure out ways I can take advantage of this huge trench while it is sitting there, so I am not hitting my forehead after we filled it up having finally remembered what I should have done. I am so grateful to all the suggestions. I should post photos -- it is quite the project.

We love pics of dug up yards. LOL

If you think you might ever want to add additional stuff out there... more lights, a pump/filter for a water feature... I'd plan for it now, with either a bigger wire or even an additional line coming from your fuse box. If there's any chance of adding an amp hog like a hot tub out there, put the wiring down while you've got the trench!

If you run the electrical wires through a conduit (PVC pipe or whatever), you may be able to include a couple of strings that you could use to "fish" additional wires through later on, but I'm not sure I'd count on that unless you're sure dirt can't wash into the conduit.

Yep, you're very smart to be figuring out ways to foresee any other ways to use that trench and avoid having to have the yard dug up again in the future.

Happy.............sorry you misread my post. I read it again and for the life of me can see not direction to or criticism of your planning. I simply saw no mention of my posts comments which are indeed very important to all of us these days. There are tradesmen and there are tradesmen. Some of them make a practice of skimping and brag it up all the time. Others do things upfront and proper. Many do not know how this could hurt them down the road of life.

I read that as Doc posting good advice, not as a criticism. :-)

Thanks!

Doc (and Jill): I didn't mean to sound defensive or cranky about your comment, just puzzled -- both you and Hart commented about the importance of code and since I'm a stickler for that kind of stuff I couldn't figure out what I had said that prompted that response. I guess lots of people try and skirt code requirements, but having potential liability terrifies me. We are the family that is always overinsured, etc. I am incredibly grateful for your (and everyone's input)!!! I'm sorry if I sounded like I was overreacting. That's always the danger with written responses -- you can't see that I'm wrinkling up my face with confusion and puzzlement as I type, not pouting in anger. So a million thanks for your input! I love you all!

Jill -- that is a great idea about the hot tub wiring. I've thought about putting in a hot tub or pond at some point. It makes sense to consider the wiring issues now, just in case we do end up doing it. And it also means I need to decide now where they might go so I have a junction point for the electrical.

I think it's just one of those instances where we wander off on a tangent (conduits and code requirements) rather than sticking strictly to the original topic (your particular project).

If you put in a hot tub, I'm inviting myself over... I'll bring a bottle of wine! :-)

We'd love to have you! My family would be so pleased if we were to put in a hot tub! We have so many mosquitos, though, that we'd have to stay submerged in the water with only our noses showing, so I don't know how inviting it would be!

Perhaps a little screened in gazebo? :-)

I love planning improvements for *other* people to install!

Happy, did you ever get your problem with rushing rain water resolved?
Will that factor into this project?

Your thread is giving me some good ideas for issues I've been mulling over.

Stornyla: Yup, we're trying to make a dent in the water-runs-into-neighbors'-flower-bed problem by installing a French drain on top of the electrical and plumbing lines. We had a landscape designer come out who was very nice but said it wouldn't work because French drains aren't designed to handle rushing water (as happens here during a big rain storm). But I've done some research and I think it'll help the problem at least a bit, which might be just enough -- we aren't talking about leaking into a basement, just avoiding washing out a flower bed -- plus we are doing it ourselves rather than contracting it out, so it'll cost much much less than had we bid out the project. And we're building a modest cold frame on the edge of the same trench! I'm really excited, can you tell!

Critter -- gazebo! That would be great. We actually can't the stop it would go is too close to the property line for a tall structure. But you've got me thinking . . . .

I'm planning to solve the hot tub / mosquito issue differently... Someday, there will be a hot tub in our basement, under the morning room. It's been in "the plan" from day 1; that's why there are extra windows in that basement nook!

I'm really inviting myself over for that -- sounds lovely.

Actually, it's not you, Happy, and no, Critter, worrying about codes isn't a tangent to some of us. It would be the first thing I'd think about.

You really are killing a bunch of birds with one stone, Happy. You could probably get a variance for a gazebo. That would be very nice. If that wouldn't work, what about a pergola? With some nice vines growing over it but big enough to sit under it or put a hot tub?

I think I'm going to visit a hot tub store this weekend -- sounds like a wonderful January thing to do! Maybe they'll let me sample the wares.

Good for you Happy. The drain & the cold frame should reduce the flow significantly. How deep is your trench?

18" currently -- that is what the electrician is requiring. I haven't asked the plumber what he needs. We can dig down further if needed. Most French drains contemplate 24", but since I'm not worried about basement flooding, I don't think that is necessary.

Happy, wear a bathing suit under your clothes! (Seriously, a salesman told me once that they're happy to have prospective customers hop into a set-up hot tub to try out the jets and bubbles.)