A sad foxtail.....Sorry for being a bad steward, FoxtailFav

At first I though the spots were from direct sun after some rain. Now, I'm thinking it's something else. Please help.

The spots seem to be killing leaves.

And it's all over all three fronds!!!
Please help, David

Those are, what I call water spots, it happens to Foxtails, when they're in pots, and they receive to much water, the spots will get lighter in the middle, as the condition clears, mist them more, and water them less, repot with a little more Perlite in the mix, in spring, make sure you leave a little roots showing, Ed

Hello, I will try to help as best as I can. Your original guess may be correct. Do you have an idea of the time between when you first saw the spot shaped lesions (picture one) and the darkened area of necrosis (picture 2)? How often do you get rain/any overhead irrigation? And these symptoms are on every frond? Were there ever any spots at all - light or dark colored before you saw the symptoms getting worse? What do you have in the way of fungicides/willingness to apply? Sorry for all the questions- it helps to figure out what may be going on. ~ F4F

Ed- we cross posted! ;-)

Alrighty then. :)

Dave how cold did you get mid Dec when that cold spell came through?

Here is a pic of mine. Looks pretty healthy for SoCal right?

Look closer. This is necrosis from cold. This is my guess for your plant.

Water spots are more of a FL thing. Too dry here in SoCal and by the time you would would really see them, the plant has started to rot as it hates cool, wet feet in pots. Wodyetia is from AU rain forest and grows in loose, granite sand. They need drainage and they really do not like cold. Mine was damaged from only 34 degrees this winter.

Mine is still recovering from our winter 2 years ago. That is a ridiculous amount of time to wait for it to get back to normal. Mine has some cold stress on it's leaves too.

Yes, the large brown area is from the cold, the small brown spots are not, Ed

let me rephrase that, this frond has had these little brown spots on it since the coolest night in late October, or early November, it does only happen when its cool, and I over water, but it wasn't below 55 or so, Ed

Dave, I am not sure you will ever get a foxtail without cold damage in SoCal with the lows we have had the last few years. Especially small foxtails let unprotected. Once larger and in the ground for a few years, they handle cold on are more immune to rotting. Just getting them to that stage can be challenging here.

Ed, what are "water Spots"? I thought at first you were referring to salt damage from watering with heavy water like SoCal tap water. Or maybe you were referring to damage that shows up from over watering a palm - which usually appears after it has started rotting in the pot. Now I am curious. :)

I only can tell you that it only happens to my Foxtails, no other palms, little dark spots, when I over water, when it's cool, then when I notice it, I am careful not to give it so much water, and the dark spots turn light brown, and stop occurring, Ed

Edric, in my opinion, I believe the kind of spotting in your picture is quite common in general depending on the palm and the situation. I think it is just an expression of moisture stress- too dry or too wet, and it has to do with what is chemically occuring in the stomae. There are actually multiple causes of this little spotting, and in other palms it may first be or only be yellow with brown halo. 2 other reasons why those spots may occur is potassium deficiency and chlorine/fluorine excess from tap water irrigation. Potassium (positive ion) and fluorine (negative ion) regulate the opening and closing of stomae. When there is an imbalance between those elements or moisture stress, an acid forms and freezes the stomae open and causes burn (spotting) at that particular point in the leaf. It is often more of a cosmetic problem than anything terribly serious.

Hey F4f, can you tell us what a stomae is? Thank you.

Only when over watered, when cool, I've been dealing with it for seven years now, it's no problem, Ed

Now let me say that I started this post. about four pm yesterday. Before the rest of the conversation.

No qualms about applying fungicide. I have some Garden Safe brand Fungicide 3. It's supposed to treat mites, insects, and fungus. The active ingredient is .9% Neem oil.

We don't get much rain. Though we have had almost 6" scene maybe....the beginning of December. No overhead watering.

Symptoms are on every frond. That's only three fronds. It is in a pot. Recently trans planted from a root bound 14" to a 4.5-5 gal. For planting mix I used palm/cactus mix to which I added almost equal parts perlite.

I recently moved the tree to it's current location. On a concrete patio with a stucco wall four feet to the south. There is an awning just west of the tree, that gives it shade after about two. Before that, full southern exposure from eight o'clock.

About our recent cold spell. I have a thermometer on the patio that records the low and high until reset. It never dropped below 40.

I can't think of anything else to tell you about. Watching the game, so just a little distracted. GO CHARGERS!

Thanks for all the response, David

Great info, Dave, thank you. This is what I would say about sun burn, and the fact that you recently moved the palm to a more southern location in winter lends itself to this. I think sunburn on an exterior palm from rain droplets is a little on the rare side, however when it happens it usually coincides with any recent changes in location. It can also happen just from the changes in the sun's angle depending on what light conditions the plant is used to. For example, I have many plants that are on the south side of the porch that I really should move during the winter because the exposure of the sun changes. If you get rain infrequently, that could be a factor once the rain occurs during the period that the plant's location and or angle of the sun has changed. So, based on this information, I would say that this diagnosis should be based on your judegments and your own observations. I do believe that the pattern of spots and necrosis do lend itself to your suspicion. The somewhat larger than usual whitish spotting in the picture1 may be where there was a water droplet and could have formed very quickly. The blackened areas in picture 2 are fairly broad and possibly may have occured later than the spotting in picture one. However, that really may depend on whether the timing of the rain and the relocation were concurrent as the pattern in picture 2 may have occured regardless.

As far as the fungicide, it probably isn't too critical in a drier area like California, but once you get some damage that is more than minor the palm MAY become more susceptible to so-called secondary pathogens that do not typically attack healthy tissue. Myrothecium, for expample. These secondary fungi tend to sporulate and can be easy to see if you have an eye for that. Anyway, the fungicide you have wouldn't hurt to apply as a preventative for secondary fungal infection.

Good luck- you have a lot of good information here from all the contributors that collectively should help you decide what is going on.

Does anyone know what a stomae is? Or was this an error? Really curious as I have never heard of it but find it interesting. Thanks.


This message was edited Jan 11, 2009 3:50 PM

She just misspelled it, Ed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoma

Thats why Google did not show anything. I know what stomata are. Just saw the word "stomae" used twice so I guess she just mispelled it twice. Thanks.

Just had to jump in because.......if there is a leaf fungus going on here, and I haven't a clue, but.....the perfect fungicide for it would be...drumroll please....DACONIL!!!! Yeah! lol sorry folks-forgive my silliness, but I couldn't resist. Daconil is one of the main fungicides that I would use for a leaf fungus, of which one of the signs can be (not always) a purplish circle around necrosis. Anthracnose is a good example, and if I had that, I would be whipping out my Daconil faster than the eye could see! Always add a surfactant with Daconil as it washes off very easily, and even then, its only effective for 7 days. I am not sure that Neem would be a good choice as a fungicide, I guess for me anyway, when there are so many other good choices. You really want to dry up the spores and thats why I wouldn't use an oil (although its a great pesticide)

Web-since you have Daconil, and your palms are showing similiar signs, do an experiment and spray one of them and see if the new leaves come out clean? It may be too late as by the time the new leaf opens, the cold is gone (if it is just cold), but maybe next year when the signs first start? I like experiments...

I seriously doubt that the sun is strong enough right now to cause sunburn, esp if the leaves have been getting some sun already.

Don't worry f4f-I suck at spelling sometimes myself :) You say stomata, I say stomae ( sung to the tune of "You say tomatoes"...)


After last nights game, I feel its better to be silly/stupid than really pi...d off!!! It took all day though. Going to see if the Chargers won-I hope you guys did better than us last night-that sucked royally.

Hi Ed and Tigerlily. Sorry for this mis-spelling, and I appreciate your patience. I actually learned something on another forum today- was very refreshing.

Tiger, I had to resist a reference to Daconil, too. Sorry about the Panthers last night. I am thrilled that the Gators were the college champs this year, and it was pretty awesome that the Dolphins had such a dramatically improved season. Dave- any good news on the Chargers?

Anyway, getting back to fungicides.....Tiger, if you gave me a list of choices, neem would be at the bottom, so you definitely have a point there. Personally, I would grab yea old hydrogen peroxide over neem in this situation given no other choice, but there are those that believe in neem's fungicidal properties.

Colletotrichum/anthracnose - your observations about the coloring around the spotted areas are very observant and very well might be correct. Just MHO, I haven't really found anthracnose to be common in palms based on my experience. However, this kind of thing can vary from region to region and there are exceptions to everything. I do tend to think of it as a disease that more foliage type plants are susceptible to and is one of the ones that will sporulate under the right conditions, which may assist when attempting visual diagnosis.

Happy Sunday, all, and hope some of you got to see that awesome moon last night! ~F4F

Terry, I do not treat my large palms fronds when they have necrosis from sun, cold or chemical (very seldom see this) reasons. Too many to do and they are all healthy as horses anyway so I do not fear. Now if it starts to spread ...... I do use Daconil . ;)

What do you use for the surfactant ?

lol no one liked my song?? Don't worry all you San Diegoians (sp-or maybe I just made a new word...), you will be singing it in 24 hrs after you get over the shock and disappointment :) Phillip Rivers needs to come home.

I was just using anthracnose as an example, however I did come across a P. canariensis that had a leaf spot fungus (thats what they called it) on the web one time. It did look similiar to anthracnose and they used Daconil to treat it. I am trying to learn about the various fungi that palms do get in case I ever have to deal with one. Like when a palm gets spear pull and people treat it with a fungicide-exactly what fungus is it-or are there different ones? Does anyone know?

I just use a surfactant that I buy by the gallon from my grhouse supply company ( BWI companies). I think I paid about $ 10-15 for it. I don't use it except for contact fungicides and some pesticides. I don't think that there is much difference in them, except Capsil-which is a different kind of surfactant. Alot more expensive ( $85/gallon) but it is great for using with certain pesticides where you can't get under the leaf (aphids under low leaves is a good example) because the Capsil penetrates through the leaf.

that full moon woke me up at 4 am Sat am shining through my bedroom window-it was like someone had a headlight aimed at my window....

The only surfactant I use is soap in my Roundup. :)

About the fungicide when spears are pulled, do what we discussed in dmail. Ask on PT as I too am curious to see. I have always had great success with Daconil and Copper. Anecdotal maybe? Lets see.

The song is a classic, Tiger. I use that reference often myself. "Why don't we call the whole thing off?" Such a great line. Thank you for reminding me of Miss Ella Fitzgerald, or whomever your favorite is!

Is 40 low enough to cause necrosis? Also, should I keep the soil a little dryer in colder months? And, if so, is this because of possible root damage or is it because of possible leaf damage when those cold nights come?

I'll find some Daconil. Should I use copper (sulfate?) at the same time? Will "Palm"olive work as a surfactant? Seems appropriate;)

Thanks again, David

I have NEVER had a fungus on a Foxtail, and unless you are very careless, there will be no root damage, Ed

Dave-sorry about the confusion that I brought up with the leaf fungus. I was only saying that the leaf damage resembled a leaf fungus (anthracnose with the purple/dark rings). I have no idea if that is what it is-and it seems that foxtails react to cold with these symptoms, so I would guess that that is what is happening to your plant as well. It doesn't look very appealing, does it? I would just wait and see what the new leaves look like when its warmer. If they continue to show spots on the new leaves that open up through the summer, then it may be a leaf fungus, but if not, then assume its the cold doing it.

I would keep the soil dryer in the winter months-but not to the point where the soil totally dries out. Poke your finger down a few inches and see if that soil is dry before you water. You can get to where you can see how dry the plant is from the color of the soil (i.e. dryer soil goes lighter etc).
Generally you don't get leaf spots from a root fungus. The leaves start to go yellow/brown and it becomes obvious that the plant is in decline.

Concerning the surfactant-I have always just used a commercial surfactant and I don't know about the rates of soap, or what kind of soap you would use. Web could help you there.

Web, i have never used a surfactant with Roundup, nor do landscapers. I don't think that you need it. As long as you spray Roundup when the temps are above 50 degrees and there will be no rain for a hour or so after you spray, it will be very effective. Goes without saying that the warmer it is ( i.e. plants are in a more active growing stage) the quicker it works as the plants take it up faster, but that has nothing to do with how long the Roundup stays on the leaves. I have been mildly curious about the rate/type of soap that you use though....

Dave, here are my recs.

If you already had some sun damage, then yes. I will try to get a cool pic of a leaf on one of my palms that is all green but a strip of brown from sun burn and then cool weather finishing it off. The other question is what are you using to measure temps? Low 40S seems really warm for that cold snap that hit. Is it a Mercury based thermometer or Alcohol? Is it mounted on the wall of the house? Low 40s seems really good and if it is true you have an excellent microclimate!



Yes. Always. It is a balancing game. No standing water but never let dry out. Here is a trick. Next time you pot it up put hydroton at the bottom. If you do not wish to pay for it, use a river pebble. Just a 1 inch layer is fine.



The pot will heat up in sun, especially if it is a black plastic one. So cold will not be an issue with roots. What will is the cool, wet soil it sits in at night. But like Terry said, your plant will tell you and I do not see this. Leaves will always show cold damage on foxes in SoCal if we hit low to mid 30s. I am trying to think of a garden I have toured where I do not see some slight damage the last few years.



I am sure this is where it will get interesting. Personally I would not worry unless it starts to spread. To be safe, hit it with Daconil. The stuff is cheap and found at home depot. For this reason, no need for a surfactant. Also, Daconil can be used for a lot of things. Another nice thing about Daconil is that it does not kill endo mycorrhizae (the mycorrhizae that palms like). I use soils high in Mycorrhizal fungus (plus bat guano, worm castings, etc). So this is important. This is why I stay away from Subdue on anything larger then a seedling unless I see it starting to "damp off".

Copper? No need. I only use copper for crown and trunk damage due to fungus only.

So that’s my story and I am sticking to it.

This message was edited Jan 12, 2009 11:10 AM

Terry, if you have to destroy literally a 1000 Washingtonia seedlings each year, you would use a little detergent in your Roundup. Those little suckers are tough to kill! Also in a tropical garden I water a lot. Even though I time spraying with watering, Roundup alone was not enough in many cases. Now on broad leaf weeds, the stuff kills fast. But on grass it gets harder. Palms being a grass basically, are even harder.

Len-where did you hear that Subdue has a detrimental affect on mycorrhizal fungi? I just googled it, and came up with this study done with Subdue and mycorrhuizal fungi on trees and in the conclusion, they found that Subdue did not affect the development of the roots. Even if it did, if I thought that some plant was in serious danger of succumbing to a root fungus, I would still apply the Subdue. But I have never heard that Subdue does inhibit the growth of mycorrhizal fungi. I need to find some studies done where mycorrhizal fungi was added to the soil and then the plant was introduced to either pythium or phytophthora and see what the resistance was, as opposed to a fungicide added before being introduced to the fungus to see which was more effective. That would be interesting. You are the computer whiz...get on it!


http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:C7Xo2xHfYYIJ:joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp%3FJournalID%3D1%26ArticleID%3D225%26Type%3D2+mycorrhizal+fungi+Subdue&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Dare I ask you to explain "also Daconil can be used for a lot of things" :)
this is fun, huh?? lol

This is basically what I have come to understand. A smarty on PT said this too :)

* Daconil is OK to use on endo mycorrhizae (the mycorrhizae that is good for palms).
* Subdue/Ridomil (avocado label) is not good if you use it as a drench (OK for foliar application). [Yes, I know, foliar is not what you like to read!]
* Daconil is bad for ecto mycorrhizae.
* Subdue/Ridomil (avacado label) is not.

I still think you need to do what we discussed. I think PT members could learn a lot. I have already made one change since talking about this online. I bought a 2 pound bag of Cleary's.

well, that smarty isn't so smart.... heres why:
Daconil is only applied as a foliar spray and is NOT taken in by the plant-hence a very good reason as to why it is not a preventative-so it would not affect anything in the soil

Subdue is never used as a foliar-a waste of the chemical as it is only taken in by the roots and travels upward through the plant-its not a matter of "what I don't like to hear (although I do cringe inwardly when I hear stuff like that-so I guess you are correct...:) )"-its what is fact and what isn't.

I want you to start googling some of this stuff too-so you are not inbetween two smarty pants telling you different stuff. Although I would put money on my info, and I don't gamble unless I am sure of myself (most of the time anyway), but like myself, you can be hardheaded. It runs in my family, and although I am not sure why-we tend to see it as an asset. I think I have to work on that .....:)

I should add here that I like these conversations also-I also learn from them, and I think that maybe I solved how the Daconil myth started. This is just a guess, but in looking at the label again, I saw that it treats fusarium (Gerlachia)Patch, also known as Pink Mold Patch. Am I correct in seeing a fungus called Pink something that hits palms? But I don't think that it is the same. A strain of fusarium ( that is in the soil-and of which a strain is the number one killer of Cavendish bananas-the commercially grown one , reading Banana right now-really interesting history of the banana) does affect palms-but it is not treated with Daconil, but maybe someone saw the "fusarium" on the Daconil label and just assumed that it was the same fusarium? Also, concerning the pink mold-this is a leaf blight-not in the soil , and thats why Daconil treats it. But maybe that is where the confusion lays.....

I did just go into why Daconil is not a preventative in that fert thread over on PT. So far, its just Michael and me on it.

WebInt, I don't know how this thermometer works. All I know is it takes batteries. The only thing I can think of that would give a false reading is that I have it perched on top of a wind chime that is hanging under an umbrella. Possibly the covering caused a false reading. I am still looking for the best location, as I am trying to avoid false highs in the summer and this has been the best placement so far. Another note, I'm in Northpark. My patio is fairly small (10"by15")(complete concrete), with a stucco wall to the north, a stucco wall to the west, and a fence to the south with another house 3-4 feet from that. Also on Weather.com, they show Northparks lows at 42 and 40 on 12/27&28 and 42 on 1/7.

As far as the daconil goes. Is that the active ingredient? I though we were talking about the name of a product. I could have Just picked it up at work. I thought I was gonna have to go to the competition. Which I don't mind if is for the garden. There is an Armstrong a stones throw from my store. Though you won't see me in a Lows.

Thanks again. You all have been great, David
P.S. If you're in the area stop by and say HI some time. I'm at Fairmont.

Edited to say. I've herd of PinkRot on King palms.

This message was edited Jan 12, 2009 3:33 PM

One thing to point out is this was in reference to seedlings. That is the only time I use Subdue anyway. But this is also when I use Daconil. I treat it as a one-two punch. So when you hit seedlings with Daconil, a lot will go into the soil. Sort of like a drench in 4 in seedling pots. This is where the conversation started about how it will kill beneficial fungi.

The reasoning for this one-two punch? What is "damping off"? Well most associate it with water molds - Pythium and Phytophthora. But there are many more fungus that cause the broad term "damping off" so who really knows what fungus you have? Could it be one of the many molds or Mildews that chlorothalonil treats? For me the answer is a systemic (Subdue) and direct contact (Daconil). Like I have said many times I have cut my tropical and palm seedling deaths down to almost zero!

Also, like I discussed before a lot of long time growers use Daconil from intended use to preventative. Science to it? Maybe not. Anecdotal? Who cares if the desired results are accomplished. ;)

About being in-between advice. This will never change. EVERY grower has their technique. Their methods. Jeff Marcus stills uses Subdue as foliar. He knows it is not suppose to be a foliar, but he swears it works. Anecdotal indeed. But has anyone sat down and tested the effects on a few hundred other fungus? Maybe some of the killers are secondary diseases? Gliocladium is a secondary disease. It can not act alone. It needs a damaged/weakened palm to enter and kill. So who is to say some mold does not first attack micro fissures in the growing point of damaged palms from cold? If that happens, maybe it opens the door for the real killers. When you think about, why does a spear get pulled? It rotted out. What fungus caused this? Anyone test it to make it science?

Terry, there is a guy that works for Scotts on the board. There are also a few others that are big into this. I think they would discuss in more detail and to your level. I am not a scientist (although I majored in Bio Science :) ). So I can only take what I read and hear and pass it along. Open a new thread on PT! :)