The first purple & white is striking--wonderful color for the garden. I do hope that notebooks of your results will be useful not only to zinnia people, but breeders of annuals. Is there a 'zinnia association'? I know we hunt for genetic information with irises.
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 2
Oh, now that some interesting and beautiful Zinna's for sure. Thsi the first I have ever heard of Aztec Sunsets??
Abotu how many kinds of Zinna are there?
Karen,
"What color were the others that you used in the crosses?"
Most zinnia colors were represented, including most of the zinnias pictured earler in this thread, except I don't have a good pure white breeder right now. I was mostly using large flowers to increase the size of the Aztec Sunsets, which are rather small between 1 and 2 inches in diameter. I have a couple of good rather large bicolor breeders, one yellow based deep magenta and the other ivory based pink, so I used both of them. I have large frilly ivory tinted with a hint of lavender and another a good basic pink. I don't know if any of these crosses will take, or how the Aztec Sunset colors will mix with my breeder's colors. I have a much wider range of colors in my breeders than exists in my Aztec Sunsets, but the browns and deep purples of the Aztec Sunsets could add some new colors to my zinnias. I am also using some pollen from my echinacea flowered hybrids, in an attempt to get colored florets combined with the Z. haageana genes. If these interspecific hybrids succeed, I will repeat the crosses using a much wider selection of my zinnias and a much wider selection of Aztec Sunsets and Persian Carpets.
ZM
Lucy,
"Is there a 'zinnia association'?"
None that I know of. There probably aren't very many amateur zinnia breeders right now to serve as the basis for an association. In addition to the few people here, there are a few more over on iVillage's GardenWeb, and an unknown number of others out there who enjoy growing zinnias and saving seeds from their favorites, but not communicating over the Internet. With the exception of morning glories, most amateur breeders seem to work with perennials.
"I do hope that notebooks of your results will be useful not only to zinnia people, but breeders of annuals."
My notebooks are really only intended as a guide for my own somewhat chaotic activities. They are not scientific to the extent that each hybrid has a record of both the male parent and the female parent. I do keep track of the maternal lines, but many zinnia characteristics seem to be controlled by several genes, so predicting the outcome of a particular cross is still pretty much a hit-or-miss proposition for me. The really methodical work is done in the academic community and by commercial plant breeders.
I am more interested in the recreational aspect of breeding zinnias for fun and entertainment, using a "by guess and by golly" methodology. Zinnia breeding is fun for me, because it is fast. The crosses I made in January have already produced viable seed that I will be planting this week to start my second generation of zinnias this year. When Spring comes I will be setting out zinnia plants that are the children of the zinnias I have pictured here. Incidentally, the echinacea flowered zinnia in this picture appeals to me because of its subtle bicolors and flower form, and I may be seeing what its children's flowers look like indoors even before it comes time to set zinnia plants out this Spring. Zinnia breeding is a fast moving sport.
ZM
I realize you are quick. Still like that white & purple one, also some of the flowers with the slight edging on the petals. Hobbies are for your entertainment, but knowlege will appear along the way.
StarLight,
"This is the first I have ever heard of Aztec Sunsets?? About how many kinds of Zinnia are there?
Aztec Sunsets are an improved selection from the Persian Carpets.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/product.aspx?category=58&subcategory=135&scommand=page&qstateid=c45c4cad-cb94-44c7-911b-4ccf9a70eef2&sp=2&item=1375
http://www.tmseeds.com/product/4294.html
There are many dozens of varieties of zinnias, perhaps hundreds. I don't know if anyone has had the patience to count. The number of different crosses you could make, starting with readily available commercial varieties, is astronomical.
I have had several bicolor zinnias with whitish picotee tips, but this pictured specimen reverses that effect by having dark pink colored tips.
ZM
Lucy,
"Hobbies are for your entertainment, but knowledge will appear along the way."
I agree wholeheartedly. Even without intending so, the plant breeding hobby has been a learning experience for me. I've learned about plant nutrition, DNA, indoor growing, plant growth regulators, etc. It is an ongoing learning experience for me. But the learning is for the purpose of enjoying the hobby, and not learning for learning's sake. My Mother used to say, "Necessity is the mother of invention", and that has proved true for me in this zinnia hobby. For example, I devised "hairnets" to keep the bees from robbing my prized zinnia pollen, and I devised zinnia cages to protect my breeder zinnias from wind damage and disturbance by dogs and other animals. (The flower nets and zinnia cages were discussed in the original Part 1 of this It can be fun to breed your own zinnias message thread: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/929238/ ) By making the learning voluntary, rather than a required chore, it has been enjoyable in its own right.
I am attaching another current picture of one of my bicolored breeders. Some of its pollen was applied to the Aztec Sunset zinnias.
ZM
If Aztec Suns are improved Persian carpets, how about ZenMans becoming improved Aztec Suns? I can see that the hairnets would prevent bees from putting on nogudnik pollen that you don't want.
Lucy,
You are right, I could simply select a better strain of Aztec Suns, using nets to prevent unwanted cross pollination. If I had the space available, I would do that, as well as several other zinnia projects that involve merely saving selfed seeds from your best specimens. Almost anyone who grows zinnias could improve and refine them by saving seeds only from their favorite specimens.
But right now my available outdoor growing space is about a quarter of what I had in Maine. My current space isn't much more than a thousand square feet, so I need to focus on my two pet "hot" projects. Those are: (1) the scabiosa hybrids and (2) bringing novel flower forms, color combinations, and plant habits to the Burpeeana class zinnias. Along the way, I will keep my eye open for any lucky mutations that might pop up. And I will watch for an opportunity to get more growing space.
ZM
This message was edited Feb 23, 2009 2:33 PM
I hope your new neighbors enjoy your plants outdoors this season. You might infect some of them with the zinnia virus. It's probably related to the iris virus which our club members have.
Lucy,
"You might infect some of them with the zinnia virus."
That is a possibility. Our electric meter reader lady commented to me about my pink-and-white zinnia that she could see through our window as she was reading our meter. She was interested when I told her that breeding zinnias was a hobby of mine. A picture of a bloom on that plant was included with my message on February 22, 2009 11:28 PM. Two of my plant stands are on the south windows of this house and are visible through the venetian blinds, which I usually keep partially open to let the sunlight in to complement my fluorescent lights. Our electric meter is near those windows.
Zinnias make much better plants if you pinch out the central bud before it develops into a flower, and the plants become branchier yet if you pinch some of the buds on the lateral branches. The more you delay flowering, the more time the plant has to develop larger and with better structure. However, I am always in a hurry to pollinate and mature some seeds to get an early start on the next generation, so I forgo the benefits of pinching in order to get rapid development of plantable hybridized green seeds.
This picture shows such a breeder in which the central bud has matured enough to have plantable green seeds and a lateral branch has produced a bloom that I am now using for breeding. I like the bushy, frilly flower form on this breeder, as well as the compact plant. The plant is compact, partly because it quickly started developing that first big bloom, and partly because I treated it with a plant growth regulator. I didn't use a lot of plant growth regulator on it, so genetics may play a role in the plant structure. Both of its flowers are fairly large, as you can see from the scale of the 10-inch square pot that the zinnia is growing in.
ZM
Hi all,
This is an echinacea flowered hybrid whose guard petals now have green seeds with matured embryos. It is the second flower on that plant to have matured seeds. I will plant them soon to get a second generation of hybridized zinnias ready to set out after our "safe" no frost date. It feels pretty good to be this far along with my zinnia breeding project this year.
ZM
This is a new flower that has formed on that same plant. I have already pollinated the stigmas of the guard petals with choice breeder pollen.
Meter reader may tell others & I bet she will really want to see them when you move outside. I envy your chance to do inside work, but really don't have the energy to do indoor stratifications of seed. It would make it a chore. It doesn't stop me from 'thinking' crosses however.
Zman... I need your help please!!!!!!! I stil readign an dhangign with ya , just the busiest tiem of the season here fo rme right now.
I got me 36 of the Magellan Zinnias up all mixed colors. They have their fourth set of true leave s on them above the cotyledons. The plants them selves are onyl abotu 3" or so up above the soil lien and the center set of leave s is makign a tiny bud already.
With the Magellens, if I pinch out that center bud wil they make make more than two lateral branches otu the side for blooms?
StarLight,
Yes, you can pinch out the center buds. Try to be careful to get just the bud, but if you do accidentally get a couple of tiny leaves too, no worry. As short as your Magellans are, you could wait a few days for the buds to emerge enough to make it easier to pinch them. Potentially each pair of true leaves on the main stem can generate a pair of side branches. The side branches emerge from the main stem at the base of the true leaves.
I am attaching a picture of an odd zinnia that I currently have. It put out some scarlet based light purple petals, but those faded to yellow based lavender, and after a pause of several days it decided to put out some fresh scarlet petals, which gave the flower a rather strange two-in-one look. I plan to save seed from it to see if its progeny behave similarly.
ZM
MM - I bought some Red Spider Zinnia seeds. I planted them and watered them with water and hydrogen peroxide mixed. They came up overnight. I was wondering if you use the peroxide. I'm amazed with it. It's making every seed I plant germinate like crazy. The percentage of germination is really good with zinnias, isn't it. I wish it was that good with echinaceas.
That yellow zinnia with red in the middle is my favorite so far. I hope you have success making more of those. It's very special.
Your echinacea zinnia posted on March 8th is definitely your best echinacea zinnia I've seen. It's very important for that cone in the middle to be huge. Have you thought about crossing that one with some which have longer ray petals? You are getting very close to echinacea blooms with that flower! Kudos! Is there a seed strain of echinacea flowered zinnias available? These could be used in place of some of the sickly coneflowers on the market.
This message was edited Mar 12, 2009 2:37 AM
Picture is amazing.
EM,
"I was wondering if you use the peroxide."
I haven't been, but it definitely sounds like something that I want to experiment with. Thanks for bringing your encouraging experience with it to our attention.
"The percentage of germination is really good with zinnias, isn't it."
It is good, typically about 80% with commercial seed. My home-saved seed don't do so well, averaging maybe 50%. So I plant twice as many. You can easily get more than 50 seeds from just one zinnia flowerhead. As you have discovered, zinnias are quick to germinate, although one-day germination is kind of unusual. Normally I get 2 to 4 days with mature dried seed and 6 to 12 days with green seed. The really good thing is that zinnias grow very fast and usually bloom in 6 to 8 weeks, and I have had some come into bloom in less than 5 weeks. So amateur plant breeding with zinnias is very fast-paced, and suitable for people like me, who want "instant gratification". I have already planted some green seeds for what will be my second generation this year, and it isn't even Spring yet.
"I bought some Red Spider Zinnia seeds. I planted them and watered them with water and hydrogen peroxide mixed. They came up overnight."
The Red Spider zinnias are members of the Z. tenuifolia species, which are a different species from the most common "garden variety" of zinnias, which are members of the Z. violacea species, also known as Z. elegans. I also am growing some tenuifolias with the idea of experimenting with crossing them with my regular zinnias. That is somewhat risky, in that the crosses may not "take" or result in viable embryos. Even if they do succeed in producing interspecies hybrid plants, the hybrids may prove to be sterile, like a mule. The Red Spiders have rather small single flowers, and there are lots more impressive zinnias that you could experiment with, if that is your intention. But don't let me discourage you. I am growing them, too, to experiment with.
"Is there a seed strain of echinacea flowered zinnias available?"
No, there is no commercial strain of echinacea flowered zinnias yet. However, there are several commercial sources of the scabiosa flowered zinnias that I am using as parents to get my echinacea flowered breeders. The scabiosa flowered cultivar has much shorter "guard petals" and small to medium sized blooms. But their plants are well-branched and crosses involving scabiosa flowered zinnias and regular "giant zinnias" can produce some amazing results, including some with rather huge central floret mounds. Some of those I have referred to as "sunflower flowered".
"Your echinacea zinnia posted on March 8th is definitely your best echinacea zinnia I've seen. It's very important for that cone in the middle to be huge. Have you thought about crossing that one with some which have longer ray petals?"
The Echinacea flowered specimen that I pictured back on January 26, 2009 10:20 AM had fairly long petals, although they sloped upwards. Its center filled in rather well with age. I have had a few with longer ray petals. But, yes, I am trying to get the ray petals longer, by several techniques, including simple selection, crossing between other echinacea flowered specimens, and back-crossing to "regular" long-petaled zinnias. The attached picture shows one of the long-petaled breeders that I am currently using. It's irregular shape makes it a bit tricky to measure, but it is over 6 inches in diameter, which is pretty good for an indoor-grown plant in a 5-inch pot. Now I kind of wish I had put it in a bigger pot.
ZM
Thanks, ZM.
I'm not crossing the Red Spider Zinnias with anything. I really like the look of them as they are. They just look interesting to me. Their bloom reminds me of Echinacea Tennesseensis, but they are red. I saw them in a catalog and had to have the seeds. I was thinking they might be used to help with the Echinacea forms.
Thanks ZM.. : ) I cna't belive they so tiny and bloomign already and want them to make lots of blooms to dab all at once.
DH is a biologist, but not a botanist, & says that he would not touch peroxide. It can kill hand cells on the skin & sterilizes by killing bacteria, even the types you may want around. He has known very old bottles of it to explode.He suggest care, or better yet, non-use.
irisMA - I use the stuff that's only 3% strength. This is then diluted again so it's probably less than 1% hydrogen peroxide. I use it for rooting cuttings and germinating seeds. I learned about using it on the propagation forum. There have been studies which have shown it increases the percentage and speed at which many seeds germinate. When I first read about people using it, I couldn't believe it. But...there are so many people reporting success with it. I know hydro growers use it constantly in the water.
Unles s it package d seed. I giv eall my seed s abath in hyrogen peroxide before i plant them. You have seed traveing from oen garden to another and the seed can carry viruses and bacteria and fungal spore s that th ehuman eye can't see but cna kill th eplant as soon as the radicle starts emerging.
I mix the 3% with soem water and eithe roska al the seed for teeny tiny, need a magnifiyign glass seed I put them on coffee filter and mist em with it.
At least people should know to delute as has has now been pointed out. And please don't keep old bottles around--watch your eyes. Goggles? We start our own iris seeds, which don't travel.
My bottle of hydrogen peroxide is brown plastic, which probably means it is light-proof. And apparently the product is "stabilized". The label says it is for treatment of minor cuts and abrasions or for use as a gargle or rinse. It warns not to use in the eyes or apply over large areas of the body. The active ingredients are Hydrogen peroxide (stabilized) 3% and the Inactive ingredient is purified water. The label doesn't say anything about wearing goggles, but it does caution against getting it in your eyes. I'll wear my glasses while using it.
I don't know why, but quite a few Whirligig zinnias have up-curled petals which show quite a bit of the reverse side of the petals, as the attached picture shows. I used to ignore those specimens because the reverse sides don't have the full coloration that the front sides of the petals have, but recent specimens with that characteristic have looked good enough to cause me to relent on my policy of discarding them. If they look good to me, I now use them as breeders.
ZM
Plants sometimes show different characteristics than you planned. Show off things!
Actually, I've liked lots of the ones you have trashed. LOL.
Karen
I like this one. When can you have this ready for production? I'll take one packet of seeds! I don't really prefer zinnias, but I like this strange one you just posted!
EM,
I'm glad you like that zinnia, but even though I may create a strain like that, it won't be for production or for sale. This is just a hobby for me, and not a potential business. I wouldn't rule out trading seed with fellow zinnia hobbyists as soon as my strains become reasonably stable. But that may take several years, particularly in the limited growing space that is available here where we are renting. I hope to have more space in the not too distant future.
However, I share your appreciation for that look in a zinnia. A grouping of them remind me of the appearance of fireworks bursts. I do think they have potential as a strain.
ZM
EM,
There was a similar zinnia pictured back in the original part of this message thread back on December 1, 2008 @ 11:58 PM.
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/MaineMan_1228197489_54.jpg target="_blank"
This attached picture is another similar specimen. If you had the space to grow hundreds of Whirligig zinnias, you should find several specimens that would qualify as seedstock to begin developing the strain. It would probably take several years to purify a quality strain. But the genes for it are there right now in the Whirligig strain.
ZM
Better looking fireworks than the ones are the eye doctors office this morning-hehehe I like the whirlagig better than some of the others.
Looking so good Z!
Liek them Firewrorks oens and would be a goo dname for registration of one of them too. Maybe ya could create a series of them.
My Zinnia seem to have decide d to throw a tantrum. They not really growign or doign anything at th emoment. I wodner if it is becaus e they know I am going to pinch th e firts buds off as soon as they get a little bit bigger and so they have decide d not to grow for me hopeing I will forget about them and when my back turned go and grow then bloom and once they bloom I won't pinch. LOL
I thinkign abotu lettign just one bloom bloom as I have some scabiosa that is allblooming now and have the itch to try and see if I cna make them too breed. Probabyl not, but gonan giv eit a try anyways.
StarLight,
It will be fine to skip pinching a few so that they bloom earlier to give you a chance to experiment with crossing them with your scabiosa flowered zinnias.
Fireworks would be a good name for the strain, although it may have been used a long time ago. But I don't think the name is currently in use for a zinnia strain.
ZM
Hello all,
Since this message thread is getting rather long and possibly unwieldy for some readers, we are continuing it over in a new thread: It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 3 http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/969046/
It would be preferable to leave your new messages in the new thread, although this Part 2 thread should remain accessible, if a bit slow to access. See you all over in Part 3.
ZM