I have a kind of mean ram.... (he butts me)
I'd like to change rams because once we have these babies, we can't breed them back to him.
Goat question!
How many are you wanting to end up with? And how mean is mean?
Well, I think we'd like to end up with 10 or so ewes, and one ram. The thing is,if you want to breed, and we would like to breed for fleece color specifically, then you can't breed the babies back to their own father. Ick. So, you know, every couple of years, it's good to get a different ram from a new bloodline. Or take your ewes somewhere else for breeding, and use your ram to stud others. The thing is, our ram is not registered, so we cannot advertise him for breeding service.
As for how mean - he will come up to the fence for head scritches and will be quite nice, but if I go into his pen, oh boy. Kelly is more forceful with him and he does not butt Kelly as often. I went in to get a chicken out of his pen (one that died in there from the virus we had) and he got me really hard in the back of the legs. I fell over and was bruised. He is a big boy with big horns.
C.
What a Beautiful Animal!!
So not a holy terror, but one to watch nonetheless. He is handsome. And it's only an 11 hour drive...
Correct, just a territorial sort. He has never tried to escape the confines of his cattle panel pasture, which is not the strongest fencing in the world, so he is not a problem in that sense. We could always meet half way...
Illinois. Nowhere, Illinois. Have you completely separated goats from sheep?
Claire, Is it really that expensive to start up? (or was that a typo?)
We have separated our original 3 Icelandic sheep and our Suffolk-Dorset-Rambouillet cross sheep from all goats. Our 3 new Icelandics that are bred (not by Blizzard) are in with the mini goats right now while we are expanding the sheep barn area. We don't want Blizzard with them since they are already bred.
Sewincircle - that was the estimate given in a magazine I just bought to comply with most State health regulations if you want to be able to sell your goat's milk and cheese and yogurt or whatever to the public. You generally need a separate milking building with impervious floors and a certain size of pasteurizer and milk coolers and careful climate control and careful sanitation procedures and a stainless (or similar) milking stand that you can sanitize, etc, etc. It is all for the health requirements of selling dairy. If you want to make your own cheese, etc, you can do whatever you want!
All of our animals right now can come and go freely and have been hanging out in the front pasture together. I can't think of any responsible way to let sheep do that though. Except maybe when they are not getting any mineral blocks or special feed. Not a big window. Been wanting to get a good pic of the herd to post. They really enjoy one another's company -we even let the cow in 'cuz she so missed the horse and goats!! I need to think of a good way to incorporate the sheep...
That does not leave much wiggle room for the average family to get into business.
I understand it is for the protection of the public, but wow! I guess I never realized it.
There is a farm near me that I hate to drive by. They sell milk to a company, their farm is awful!
It is filthy and their cows constantly get loose and run in the road. I cant imagine them meeting these codes. sheesh!
Claire, we have a saying: Vicious = delicious. If you have a ram that is attacking you, he needs to go. You don't want to breed from him more than you already have. You need to be equally as forceful with him as Kelly is, and take something in with you if you have to go into his pen - a shovel, pitchfork, whatever. Another Icelandic breeder ended up in the hospital with hairline fractures of her pelvis because a ram caught her unaware and took her down. Luckily her dogs jumped in and kept the ram from taking a second shot. She crawled to her house to call the ambulance, passing out twice on the way. She's OK, but it could have been much much worse.
If nothing else, STOP giving him head scratches. Carry a spray bottle with half and half vinegar and water and use it when you have to go in with him. He needs to respect you and you need to be safe (NEVER turn your back!). Icelandic rams in general are not mean, but there are always exceptions, and any ram can be unpredictable in breeding season.
Wow....oh dear...I didn't know that. He has such a beautiful fleece....
I know... it's hard when they have some really nice attributes that you want to keep or breed into your flock. But it's not worth your health or life. And unfortunately, young rams tend to be friendly, and so people naturally want to pet them and make friends with them. But what that does is set you up as an equal in the ram's mind, and then one day he decides to challenge you, and unless you come back with greater force in some way, he will keep challenging you. Your ram sees his pen as his territory, so when you or Kelly go in there, he's going to defend it. Especially when the hormones are running high.
One thing that seems to work sometimes is to grab the offending ram and flip him over onto his side, lay on top of him, and yell at him. Threaten to turn him into sausage or feed him to the dogs or something. Anything you want to yell at him while you're yelling. :-) Hold him there until he stops struggling, then let him up. This may or may not be a permanent fix, depending on the ram, but it usually gets their attention at least. We did this with one ram that had a mean streak and he immediately went to the far side of the paddock and stood there eyeing us like we were nuts. Of course, he was going to freezer camp regardless, but at least he didn't try to run me or my husband down again. This is best done with two people, and watch when you let him up that he doesn't immediately take another shot at you.
We have two rams now. One is as nice as pie. He's like a dog. We scratch under his chin (never his head or horns) and he wags his tail. I still keep one eye on him at all times. The other is not as friendly, but he's not unfriendly either; he respects us. That's probably ideal.
No difference really than a flogging roo. No difference except maybe 200 pounds, lol! Claire, I always take a big fat walking stick out with me when I go to give my sheep and goats grain. Not that I need it, but if they all start to rush me, I just bring that staff around and they straighten out real quick. Took a couple of bonks on the head for the goats to get it, but they're much better behaved now during chow time. Your not really hurting them, just showing them that your the head hauncho! You have to have that extra tool, because in their world they have horns to prove whose worth his salt.
Patchouli - I said something similar to that to Kelly the other day and you know what he said to me of course...
"You mean I'm not horny enough?"
Groan....men.....
Yesterday I went up to the fence and pretended like I was going to go over. Of course, he began a charge. I hopped down and grabbed both horns when he got over to me (his first charges are usually a bit feeble). He fought and fought but I would not let go of the horns. I got a couple of bruises against the fence, but held on tight. He fought for about 5 or 7 minutes, and then just stood there. After about a minute of just standing there, I let him go and he hurried off. I figure I'll start doing that daily. Maybe he'll get it. I rule, you don't. End of story. :-)
Do that with my billys too Claire. When they're young I catch 'em by the horns and flip 'em ( well, horns and a leg). That stops 'em cold...
I totally agree!! You've got to be the head of the flock(herd!). Great job Claire! He'll get the message. :-)
Claire, will you get another male as well, because it is the father of two? (I could be wrong about that) If I am sorry. :) Will two males get along okay? I am still floored about the startup cost to produce and sell cheese. Will you still persue making cheese for non sale? I just love it!
We've had rams that got along together.
Oh yes, we will definitely be making cheese for ourselves. I might even sell some of it through work to my colleagues if they are interested - not as an official public producer. Just private sales. I think that we may consider the costs and see if setting up a small scale dairy would be reasonable. We could maybe do it over 3 years or something. Also, we want to see if there are any small farm government grants available for such things.
As for the ram, we might get another. He is not the father of anything right now. The three ewes we have that are pregnant (Oreo, Kat & Clover) were bred on another local farm to "Thunder" so any of their lambs could be bred to Blizzard when they are old enough. Blizzard has been in with Flurry and Bianca and Poppy, so any of them could be bred, but we don't know for sure. It is vaguely possible that Blizzard fathered Flurry, but unlikely because the other male in the pen that she came from had her coloring. That male was killed by the Saint Bernard dogs that broke into the pen and killed two of the 5 sheep. We have the remaining 3 who were sold to us by the owner. He believes Flurry is Bianca's daughter by the other ram. If any of Flurry, Bianca, or Poppy gives birth to lambs, we would not breed them back to Blizzard. This is why it is important for us to keep good records!
I see, for some reason I thought that the two girls were breed with him. My mistake.
I would love to be a taster for your cheese! ;) hehehe
I love it. I would love to give it a try, even to make it once. I love to try new things.
I just dont have any goats...Now that is a problem! LOL
That is crazy that a Saint Bernard dog killed all those poor animals. I know its in their instincts but man! That had to have been an awful sight! Most farm animals learn to trust dogs and to have that happen is really sad. wow!
Apparently it was 3 Saint Bernard dogs that came in as a pack. They are not normally that way, but as a pack, they can behave differently.
I would hate to run into a pack with that size members! :O
Don't be discouraged as to the costs to get started with making cheese. It doesn't have to cost that much. It really is a matter of common sense.
Yes to be licensed by your state you will have to meet certain standards, but really it is all about the type of environment that doesn't promote much germ growth. Stainless steel is every cheese makers friend...LOL
I have a 16 gallon pasteurizer that I'm no longer using since we had to move, contact me if you want to know more.
Anyway, milking machines are expensive, and until you have so many that your hands won't hold out during a milking session, I wouldn't invest in them. There are enough other items that you will need to get.
The main items that you need right off the bat is a separated room from where you milk the sheep/goats. This room needs to floor drainage for that occasional milk/water spills....lol You need a refrigerator that is used only for the storage of your milk and cheese making supplies. This can also be used to store your cheese in as well. But believe me you will need several refrigerators, one just for your milk and the others for your supplies and to store you cheese. My specialty was raw milk aged cheese in 1 pound wheels. cheddar flavor. You need to also make sure that this processing room has screens on windows and doors in order to cut down on flies that enter. You need to have fly control measures in place. You need to have a log for tracking your cheese batches and all your supplies and have a good system in place for rotation of your milk. You also need to be able to show the length of time for the various stages of collection. Milked at 6 am, collected 5 gallons, milk was pasteurized at such a such temperature for such and such length of time. This was then put into cold storage at such and such time and date. When it comes to the state you can never have too much information.
My inspector said he never had to worry about my practices as I had everything covered and in some cases was way above what the state required. But the way I looked at it was I wanted to make extra sure of things especially my practices with the raw milk cheese. I did some pasteurized cheese only a few, as I feel you loose so much in the flavor of the cheese when it goes through this process. Well I stop for now as I could go on and on. But one thing is for sure, if you want to make some cheese and you will then start having folks asking to purchase, do not sell to them until you are approved by your state. All it takes is for you to sell to one person and they get sick for some reason, (you know how people are they want to blame someone even if it doesn't have anything to do with them) not that it would be from your cheese, and they then try to sue you and the state will be brought in and you will never be allowed to sell cheese then, not to mention what the courts would do to you. So please, just give your cheese away until you meet the states requirements to sell.
For those that are running goats and sheep together, please tell me you don't have your minerals that are for the goats out and available to the sheep. Goat minerals and sheep do not make a good combination and can in fact can be deadly to the sheep.
I'm so excited for those of you who have the Icelandic's. You are truly blessed. As far as the rams go, you should never get them use to being scratched or touched on their heads, except in the case of having to saw horns. It is the same with rams as it is with bucks, never get then started with you touching their heads, they take this as a game of challenge and as they mature they then start to try and assert themselves over you. For sure never turn you back on a ram, and it is especially wise to always have someone else with you when you enter their territory during breeding season.
Janet
This message was edited Jan 8, 2009 9:00 PM
Janet, you are so full of good advice. I have sent an email to my extension office asking for the specific requirements on the dairy. I have seen refrigerators on my company classifieds site, that are usually perfectly good, so I could get 2nd hand refrigerators for my milking area. We need a new building for it for sure. We are on septic and I'm not sure how the draining etc would work with that.
I would be interesting in learning more about your 16 gallon pasteurizer. Kelly's sister lives in Gallipolis Ohio (I think that's how you spell it) and maybe if we determined it was what we needed, she could buy it and then bring it to us next time she comes to Iowa. She usually does drive a mini van so it would fit in there I would think.
We have sheep minerals that the goats can eat, but not the other way around. We separately feed the goats their own mineral and soda several times a week. It is not the ideal situation and we plan to change it in the spring but for the winter it is OK.
We are trying to decide what to do with our ram's horns. They are very close to his face now. We thought we should try to file them down. Are you saying we should saw them off? At what point can one do that? Sounds a bit scary.
Claire
Wonderful bit of info! Thanks Meadowy!!
ps. keep pumping for info Claire -she's good....;-)
LOL, Can you say...Cheese? yippy!
CMoxon: Most folks I know would take a small saw file and work at cutting the horns. When they do get too close to the face you have either two choices, one take them in to the vet have them put to sleep long enough to have them de horned. This will leave some really serious wounds, but they hopefully will survive the surgery, or the other is to have them put down. This is a very serious thing and one that needs to be address when selecting horned animals for a breeding program. If there is a family history of the horns growing to close then this is not something you want to bring into your genetics, no matter how wonderful the ram is otherwise. Stop and think for a minute, if a ram that had horns growing too close or even into his face, he would eventually died so therefore nature would take care of elimination his genes from the flock naturally. I had a friend, she didn't have Icelandic's but she would work on sawing the inside of the horn closes to the face like shaving off slivers, so that the jaws could work properly for them to chew. Now when the end of the horn starts to grow towards the face if you watch it then you can keep grinding the end of the horn, it is just like toenails of a dog, the more you keep grinding down the end the more the blood supply will retreat somewhat so that you don't cause too much bleeding. Just make sure to have the (oh fudge can't remember the name of it right now) oh it stops the bleeding, it is a powder that acts like a man's septic stick. If you have horned animals you just have to make it a point to be checking them every week as they can grow into a face before you know it, then you are in trouble.
Another great selling items for those that take the ram lamb to slaughter house, make sure to get the skulls back especially if there are horns. Many people pay top dollar to get these. If you have rams or ewes that break a horn, keep the horn and either you or someone you know that is good with a saw, saw the horns down and have small holes drills so they can be used for buttons, or used as handles for knives. Many hunters and black power and reenactors are always looking for these items.
You folks, I've got to stop for tonight, I'm so tried tonight, this darn cold is getting the best of me this year.
I'll be back tomorrow night and get caught up.
Janet
Claire, it looks like the ram's horns have almost formed a complete circle, so the end of the horn is already past his face. How close is the inside curve of the horn to his head? Is it touching his face? Can you get a finger in between?
Yes, I can get a finger in between. Just. Barely. We didn't know about this stuff when we bought him - we are still new to it all. We loved his fleece. Maybe because of his horns and aggression, it is time to let him go. I don't know. We could probably file them down in the area where they are close to his face. Kelly has really heavy sandpaper that we thought about using to get it started, and then a file maybe.
I think you'd have a hard time with sandpaper. If they aren't touching his head, I wouldn't worry too much about them and just keep an eye on them. Horns are just one component to be considered when evaluating a ram. At the Southram station in Iceland, where they score rams as AI sires, they don't even count horns as part of the evaluation. The reason is that they know they can just cut them if necessary. They are primarily concerned with meat production - so correct conformation and production of milky and productive daughters is most important. Here, some may have different priorities. Some may keep a ram like yours despite his horns, if they wanted to get his fleece genes passed on. They might choose to breed him to ewes with very wide horns so that hopefully the offspring wouldn't have that problem. Horns are hard sometimes to judge on young rams too. They can look good and then suddenly they aren't, or vice versa. Sometimes you just have to wait and see how they grow.
As for his aggression, you'll have to decide whether you think it's worth putting up with if his other attributes are good enough. How is he conformationally, for example. But remember, there are always more rams out there if he's not what you really want.
I believe the danger in goat minerals for sheep is the copper. I don't believe sheep can process it and it builds up in their system.
Sheep need some copper, but only very small amounts. Usually there's enough in hay, grass, etc, so that they don't need to have it added. They will store copper in their liver, and if they consume too much, over time they build up an excess. Then, at a moment of stress, this can be released into their bloodstream and it can kill them.
Icelandics *seem* to be able to tolerate higher levels of copper than other sheep, and *may* even need higher levels (this is based on multiple shepherds' observations). Copper deficiency can present as loss in color to the wool, particularly in black sheep, and it can also have a lot to do with how resistant sheep are to parasites. Copper is needed for the formation of hemoglobin, and so a copper-deficient animal is going to have a harder time recovering from barberpole worm infestation. We haven't done this yet but several people I know have sent liver samples from a butchered sheep in to have trace mineral analysis done and have found that their sheep were actually deficient in copper.
Copper also interacts with other minerals/elements, and so soil and water testing can also be done to find out what is there, as some other elements can bind copper making it unavailable.
Then there's the whole selenium issue.... but I'll stop. :)
Waaah! Don't stop!! You were just getting started...how DO you deal with selenium? (I've got Boers, wanting Icelandics too so this is very interesting)
Hahaha! I can't hear Selenium anymore without thinking of dandruff shampoo. They made references to it in the movie Evolution. Hilarious. Love that David Duchovny.
With selenium, you have different choices. There's the Sel-E gel that you give orally. There's Bo-Se that you can get from your vet and give by injection. And then there's Sel-E premix that you can add to your mineral mix to up the Se and Vitamin E levels (the two things work together so you need both). I like to add Sel-E premix to my free choice mineral mix to bring the level up to 90 ppm.
Bo-Se is usually given to the ewes a month before lambing and some give each new lamb an injection as well, although it may be unnecessary if the ewe has already been given it and they also are consuming their minerals. I also feed kelp free choice which has a little Se but also a lot of other trace minerals.
I use Sel-E gel whenever I think a given sheep needs a boost. Anytime sheep will be under stress it's not a bad idea to give them some extra - heat stress in summer, shipping stress (give before shipping), high wormloads, etc. Anytime you have a sick sheep, some Sel-E probably will help, and can't hurt.
{{teeheehee}} Thank you.
I had read about it but hadn't really internalized...