Need Help

I've got a problem going on with my Palms......especially my seedling......I bought a ph and water tester to get to the bottom of it and found that my soil is at 3.5 to 5 on the ph chart which is acidic.....what can I add to the soil to get it to the right ph......the leafs are going brown from the tips and the whole leaf is drying up working it's way to the spear and then the stem dies.......Some guy at a nursery told me to add one table spoon of vinegar to a gallon of water and drench the pots then back off on the watering....I don't want to just start doing something that might make it worst.....Please any one
Thanks Curt

From what I remember in Biology or chemistry, The lower the PH the higher the acidity. So an orange would have a low PH. So would vinegar. I'm pretty sure I'm right about this But somebody else please chime in. Something like Lye has a high PH. But I'm not sure and I would not know where to get it or how to apply it.

How did it get this way? Have you been mulching with something acidic?

Here are a few pic's of the problem....I did find when I went to change out my water filters that they were deep rust brown and I am sure the water coming out was worse than what was going in so I bypast that system just a few days ago........Here are the Pic's.....maybe you guys might have an answer....maybe to much watering?

#2

#3

#4

Here is the last one

Radman-the quickest way to raise the PH is to go to a gardening store/Home Depot and get a bag of hydrated lime. Its a fine white powder that you mix with warm water to dissolve it easier and faster. You can either pour that mixture (follow directions on the bag) into the containers-or let it settle and pour the water mixture that is the top part of the mix (in other words-pour the solution into the containers and not the sludge at the bottom of the bucket. Either way will work-but you must rinse the solution off the leaves right after you pour the solution into the containers-pour enough into each container that it runs out at the bottom of the pot, and then rinse the leaves off (without leaching out the lime out of the pot) . this should raise the PH some, and you may have to repeat for several wks-once a week until you see the PH that you want.

What is the medium that you are using now that gave you such a low PH? do you know what the PH of your water source is?

Hi tigerlily........I havn't a clue on the ph of my water source......could it be overwatering?

You said that you bought a water PH testing kit, so use it!!! lol just kidding-kind of tired and stupid right now. Seriously though-not sure what kind of kit you have, but you should be able to test your watering source with it-it might be extremely acidic and that will affect your PH. There is some reason why the medium is so low-and it will kill a plant at 3.5 etc. Its either your watering source or your medium that is the problem. Did you use straight peat moss in your medium? That would do it. Most ferts aren't going to be the issue-unless you used a sulfur coated slow release fert-that might-but only for a few months and then the sulfur wears off.

No, not the carpos! sorry about your dilemma. I don't have the foggiest idea about water PH. My smallest carpo's spear tip turned brown (dead) but then the rest was healthy and green. I suspect it had to do with amount of water I was given it. Get it taken care of before it wipes out your collection. Hope for the best.
Dave

Hmmmmm.......I did use some osmocote 19-6-12 smart-release plant food in May and I did sprinkle a little epsoms salt at that time. I have a filtration system with 2 big blue 4.5 x 20" size flilters, one a white 20 micron and then a carbon type. A few days ago I opened them up to find that the whitle filter was completly rust brown with the water inside dark brown. The carbon filter was no better. So I pulled them out and now running the water with no filters.......thinking that might be a problem with it being concentrated with rusty water.....and the meter does show that all my pots soil as wet even though I only water them once a week....

Its not the Osmocote-its not sulfur coated. Nor the magnesium (Epsom salts). You still haven't said what is in the growing medium. Its that or your water.

Do you trust this PH kit? If you don't, then you don't want to start using the hydrated lime. That low a PH will burn your plants like your pictures show.

I'll take a few pic's in the morining of the soil....it is a fast draining cactus mix...and I will check out the water

I can not believe a nurseryman told you vinegar to lower PH. Vinegar is an acid! If your PH is really 3.5, I doubt your plants would be alive. I can see salt burn for sure on the tips but I think you have spider mites. You have the signs of this - the yellowing of the leaves in a molting pattern. Flip the leaves. See any whitish dusty stuff or REALLY small spider webs? Any REALLY small red/brown dots? Those scenes bring back bad memories of my mite issue in my greenhouse this summer.

If you want to save your plants, raise the pH and start using bottled water for a few weeks/months to push out the salts. You can fill up the jugs for cheap at places like Stater Bros or other grocery stores.

This message was edited Sep 12, 2008 6:57 PM

Hi Weblnt..........I took each plant one at a time to my work area and checked all sides of the leafs and stem area for problems. I had noticed a few brown black and yellow type of dots on some of the leafs for the last few months and had been using insectal soap at those areas. I took a tooth brush and lightly scrubed off the leafs and stems of each palm.....I did have two areas on one that had the webs.....Thanks for the information.....bottled water it is for the next few months
Curt

ditto on that suggestion... also, thoroughly water each pot with that water... you need to rinse all the salts out.. and don't add any more fertilizer til spring.

Is distilled water better than the other type know as "drinking water"?

yes it is... has no salts in it. Some people with large greenhouses use a process called reverse osmosis which basically makes distilled water... then no salts in soils OR on the palm leaves themselves (acts more like rain water and no more white salt build up on the leaves).

It isn't the salts that are the problem here, per se, its the acidicity thats the issue-that is what is driving down the PH. Also-he has a slow release fertilizer that is in the soil-and the more water it is exposed to-the more it releases-and thats the salt that could do more injury to the roots right now. Its not a good situation anyway you look at it.

Radman-you basically have two choices if you want to save these palms and there is no guarantee that either will at this point-the roots/plants may be too damaged.
Heres the first-you use the hydrated lime (not the dolomatic lime-hydrated is much faster-though you have to be careful with it-follow the directions for mixing amts and wash off the solution right away-with any water but what was so acidic) and you will start to see a change in the PH within a few days. It will take several times (maybe 5 days apart ) of applying the lime before you will get it up to the 6.5-7 range that you want. If you have topdressed the Osmocote-then scrape it/remove it from the plant.
Second choice is to totally repot the plants-and if you have damaged roots-clean them up with straight hydrogen perioxide (or cut half and half with water)- the 3% that you get from the store. You can soak the roots in the hydrogen perioxide for a few minutes and remove the rotted roots. And of course-figure out a better source of water! Don't add anything to the new medium for a few months (fert etc) and then if you start to see good growth-go to a liquid fert and fert lightly each wk until the spring when you can add the slow release.

Either choice-its going to take a while before you see any change to your palms and they will probably still go downward for a period of time until they right themselves.

Sorry you are going thru this-it sucks.

Thanks everyone for your input. I checked the ph on my water, it is at 7.5.......I bet it was the filters that were loaded up that contaminated my water. I'll be going to the store on monday to get some distilled water....

I definitely agree with Tigerlily that this is a pH issue. In fact, the symptoms that have appeared in your leaf tissue are most likely due to the fact that at the range of 3-4, the metal nutrient elements become exponentially available/soluble. So, as a result you may have any number of toxicities- iron, manganese, aluminum, etc. It is unlikely that your water was the cause- water affects soil solution more than soil chemistry unless there are specific components which would make an exception or a period of several years has elapsed. Fertilizers can be a factor, but again usually takes some time and many years of application and your palms are young. The most likely culprit is the peat component (if there is) in your soil mix. Some peats naturally have a pH of 3.5-5.0, and typically a well mixed soil containing peat will be already amended with lime (or dolomite, etc.) at the time you have purchased the product. Here is the catch- over time peat based soils, as the peat continues to decompose, will become acidic again. So, keep that pH meter handy and let us know whether you amend or repot as well as how it turns out.

Don't know if it was mentioned- if you go to a grower supply type of place you may be able to find flowable lime. Just a little more available than hydrated lime, but both are good.

Well it turns out I think I found the problems in time. First problem was as the roots developed farther down into the pot it got to the zone were it stays wetter and because of this even though I watered only once a week it was getting to much water. I did also have a problem with scale and Have treated with insecticidal soap 3 times.....I also took out all of the benches etc out of the greenhouse and did a good cleaning. After almost three weeks now they seem to be doing better ( lost only three). I want to thank all who gave me advice, with out your help they would have been all dead.....
Curt

Well I thought I'd let everyone know that I lost (so far) 50 more of my Carpo's.........I am depressed. The last 18 don't look all that good either. I feel like tearing out the greenhouse and burning the rest of my palms.
Curt

Don't feel too bad. You are not the first to lose a ton of tropical plants in a temperate climate (and you won't be the last). I have lost every single marginal palm I have ever grown... but thankfully my non-marginal palms are doing great and keeping me sane.

Sorry Curt. Thanks for the Brahea, it loves my backyard! Before you light the fire, consider redistributing some of your palms, to my place. I have been know to revive many plants. Talk to you soon.
Dave

Just wanted to let you guys know that I am trying my last thing with the dying carpo's...........I bought clay containors, the thought here is that it won't hold all the wetness down in the bottom area like the plastic pots do. I don't pray but I do have my fingers crossed.
Curt

Radman-did you ever fix the PH of the soil?

Yes the soil was taken cared of. seems I was over watering.....

Radman, I respect you for trying to grow these marginal palms. Never give up. In reality we are just newbies and we are learning from our trials.

But why do the trials you go through cost so much money and time. The pots do seem like they are doing there job. My brother gave me the idea to go to clay pots. He used to work at a nursery in Hawaii and told me that they would put the delicate problem type plants into clay because they were easier to monitor the watering and they seem to stay more uniformed in moisture content.......hmmmmm

Clay pots in a dry climate, will only make your soil dryer, your problem is low humidity, the same reason Palmbob said you can't really grow Adonidias in CA, and like Wbint said, I believe he used the term well established, if your palms were over 8 or 10 years old, you may not have such a problem, you may want to reconsider taking some variety off your list, Ed

put that fogger in your greenhouse.