What's the Argument Against Non-Organic Fertilizer?

I absolutely support organic gardening, and I understand the problems associated with pesticides. But I've never read much on why non-organic fertilizer (such as Miracle Gro) is a problem. Can someone please point me in the direction of some articles or threads from reliable sources?

When I talk to people about organic gardening, I want to be able to explain WHY organic nutrients are better. I can come up with some general, obvious stuff on my own, but I need to do more reading on the issue to be able to come up with a really suitable response.

One of the problems is that there's generally way too much nutrients in the synthetics, much more than the plant can use right away, and since a lot of them are water soluble the excess washes away and is wasted (and can get into ground water, streams, lakes, etc). The organics contain lower levels of nutrients, and they tend to stay where you put them rather than all washing away and they release slowly over time as the plants need them. Also I think there's some evidence that at least some synthetic fertilizers can kill microorganisms that are in the soil which would also be bad, and organics do not (plus some of them like composted anything will actually add beneficial microorganisms to the soil). I'm on my lunch break so don't have any time to dig up references right now, but if you google something along the lines of benefits of organic fertilizers or differences between organic and synthetic fertilizer you'll probably get tons of references.

thanks, ecrane. so much information out there but so little time. :o) i'll bump it up higher on my to-do list.

Synthetics are also very often derived from oil. I prefer to use the oil to make my motorcycle move and organics to grow my food. Just a personal thing. *grin*

I agree with the idea that chemical fertilizer kills the beneficials in the soil thus rendering the soil to dirt. Then there is the idea regarding what happens to humans when they feed on chemicals and is it different for plants or not. Look up Justus von Liebig who is known as the father of chemical agriculture. This is a debate that has been ongoing since Liebig introduced chemicals to agriculture.

This message was edited Aug 25, 2008 12:32 PM

It is true the debate has been going on but it is not a debate. It is a discussion with simple and easily understood facts.

The first and most important fact is that the man made harsh chemicals are not biodegradable therefore they do not ever go away. They simply wash down stream to the bays and then on to the deepest puddles in the ocean. Secondly it is absoutely true that no element in a man made chemical supports biological life. Not a single element in the chemistry is in the least a living biological critter. In fact all of the man made chemistry harms or kills the very biological life we need to build or maintain our healthy soils. In fact the chemistry does not render soil to dirt......They are all placed, and washed through the soil by water and travels in water to the oceans of the world where they finally kill the biological content of the deepest puddles within the oceans. If we do not manage to stop this flow larger parts of if not the whole of the oceans will be poisioned with no known cure.

Now if this site is normal someone is about to inform us once again that thousands to millions of people will die because we can not support life without the use of those chemicals. We also will likely be informed that the plants can't tell the difference.

The truth is.........that organic management of farming soils delivers fruit with proven generally better plant health, better color, taste, size and food value. Someone will likely say this is not true. That would be normal. The major chemical companies have many spokesmen and seemingly endless networks of grant supported studies to continue confusing lots of people who think they are just wonderful.

It is pleasing to see the farm market networks being built up in nearly all communities. This is a direction and sizable supply system which has no likely-hood of doing anything but growing for your use and pleasure. In these markets shoppers are finding healthy and organic foods in quality and enough supply to totally avoid the green grocer's offering.....at least in season. We are begining to support cattle farms to the extent that they are improving and growing healthy and organic meats year around in many areas. These farms are sustainable.

The farms using the chemicals are not sustainable. We are seeing the begining of a turn-around leading to better foods from better healthy farm managements. You can help by support to the healthy or organic farms and their families.

Interesting that you made these comments today, as I was just coming here to post a blurb I read in Time magazine earlier today:

"The Ocean: Living with Dead Zones According to a report published in the journal Science, the number of dead zones--areas of the ocean with oxygen levels so low that marine life can barely survive--has doubled every 10 years since the 1960s as a result of a runoff polluted with nitrogen-rich crop fertilizer. There are now more than 400 such zones--from the Gulf of Mexico to the Black Sea (see map above)--which, the report's authors say, pose as great a threat to coastal ecosystems as overfishing and habitat loss."

Here's another article for anyone who wants to find out more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1832905,00.html

I was also recently reading about higher nutrient content in organic produce. Here's the article: http://www.cookinglight.com/cooking/hl/attitudes/article/0,13803,1827080,00.html (Make sure your pop-up blocker's on for this site.) The chemical companies can say what they will, but it sounds like the University of California is definitely in a position to put this "argument" to rest.

As far as consuming chemicals, that's a scary subject as well. I've seen reports where they do extensive blood tests of random people and the chemicals that they find in their blood (at high levels) is terrible. I can foresee a point in history where the science overrides the naysayers and people will look back and think, "Why were these people poisoning themselves!"

There is a lake in Central FL that was dead from fertilizer runoff. I want to say Lake Apopka. It was completely dead. The water looked like Miracle Grow and stank something awful. Anyhow, some years ago people were asked to donate their used socks to be used for 'planting' something in the lake that would eat up the toxins, and eventually other plants and fish would re-inhabit the lake. Don't know how it's going. Maybe someone else will.

One of the points often over looked is the fact that almost all surburban and many urban folks can grow by pot culture or small garden management. Nearly all have a source for the elements of healthy soil building. Even if one can not possibly raise enough food for the family one can learn the simple basics and grow some food.

We are no way close to the mentality that would cause our interests in this matter to be a worthy movement. That level would see our dozen or so gardening magazines nearly totally devoted to growing food items. Flowers and ornamental landscaping would be a luxury half page or so as a small part of the interest of that day. Single occupancy homes would be valued according to the condition of the food gardens and the value they could produce. Laws permitting truck farming on small private lots in surburbia would be changed to permit overall plants that exceed six or eight inches which are now generally weeds when it happens. Grass would be replaced by some food plant. It would not be against the law to use manures, minerals and to keep compost piles. I will not likely live to enjoy this change but none of the above is a kooky idea of an organic nut at this time. In 1950 anyone who thought like this was a flat out kook half out of his mind. In the 50's this talk and mental support was found in one small magazine named Organic Gardening. The foundations for where we are today in our thinking and resulting development go back even thousands of years before the 50's. The first man created manure and surely noticed that something grew better where he placed that manure.

I attended a lecture on vermicomposting (worm bins) a few years ago by a visiting PhD from India. She said that after WW II, much of the arable land in her country was basically used as "labs" for chemical manufacturers to see what would increase crop yield. By the 1990s, the soil was so dead it wouldn't support any plant life at all, wouldn't drain, and had a permanent white "scum" of chemicals on it. She showed slides----it looked like the back-side of the moon.

They started a vermicomposting program and spread the finished compost on these fields. Within a couple of seasons the soil was significantly improved. Within a few more years years they were among the most fertile & productive in the area. She said that the worm castings helped tremendously, but also the worm-eggs laid in the compost hatched out and adapted themselves to live in the contaminated soil and after several (worm) generations had cleaned it up. This was on a large scale, too, so it is possible to have organic commercial agriculture, and it IS possible to heal damage that's already been done.

It is possible to clean up and rebuild dryland that has leached the poisons. This accounts for the sick low lands, bays and now some oceans. What goes down stream remains exactly what it was when man created it. Most if not all of it is not bio-degradable. We must look to the flow of the poisons and where they end up to identify the real serious problem.

Water leaving the oceans to cycle into rain....good pure rain only makes the ocean worse because when that good pure rain evetually returns it is taking even more poison back to the oceans of the world.

I was under the impression that the Gulf red/dead zones that ebb and expand were nitrogen rich that choked the oxygen levels. Is this because of algae bloom like Lake Erie used to be from phosphorus high levels that made algae take over.

Sorry.....I am not in that watershed. Most of my data is related to the Chesapeake Bay and it's tributaries. That and the fact that I simply can not keep up with the flow of data that is showing up daily and weekly just on this area.

Docgipe - I'm a little confused, and I am really interested in this thread. My question concerns your statement about how no element in a man-made fertilizer sustains life. So why do they make plants grow so frighteningly quick? Can you please explain why it is that algae blooms occur when man made fertilizer is present in runoff that has fed into a wetland? Aren't algae living organisms?

I have a basic understanding of plant biology, ecology, and native plant communities, and we all know that Miracle Gro 'works' as a source of NPK. Was it that you were referring to how organics tend to be 'living' aides to building soil structure and help build / attract pro-biotic organisms?

My query is sincere, I may have missed something that could prove useful in explaining to the uninitiated that Organic is the way to go . . .

Thanks,
Jeff

The man made chemicals excite growth that is unballanced. This causes fast long cell development, creates softer, taller and weakened total body strengthes, reduces all real food structure, color and qualilty, in the food we eat. These conditions in part or in total signal sick plant to the destructive forces of nature.....including the pathegons. Nature is designed to destory sick plants so we are led to believe we need more chemistry to grow these plants. This just makes the biological ballances even worse. Eventually we find ourselves growing in a nearly if not totally dead soil with plants that have evolved to live in this mess.

Two simple biological moves by healthy soil and/or organic interests have recently improved the basic organic trends. They are the use of natures own mycorrhiza that have been largely killed off by fungicides and the use of aerobic compost tea. Aerobic compost tea made from proven all inclusive biological compost can expand the good biology up to 10,000 times the content of the compost.

The heathy patch and or organic principles have never changed in practice. They are the use of animal manures, rotted living matter, basic native soil, maintenance or improvement of mycro minerals and the use of cover crops and leaves to build structure along with compost.

All manmade chemistry reduces or destroys the total biological ballances. This is a well proven point well documented.

Now we know how to expand the effectiveness of natural soil by rebuilding the mycorrhiza and creating the natural soil buiding critters from bacteria through the fungi to higher life forms amoeba to nematotes. This being done the higher forms just appear. Bigger, better quality and more vollume per square foot or mile is a given fact. Anyone can prove all this in his or her small plots.

The effectiveness of the aerobic teas are not the only teas good for the soil. They are just the best we know how to make and use today. The effecive noticable improvement by using aerobic teas can be noticed by eyeball observation when the application reaches or exceeds just one gallon per acre.

The mycorrhiza are fungi that still exist in our unpoisoned soils. The largely are unaffected in out wild areas that have escaped orchard fungicide practices.

All or most of the biological players once placed on or in the soil or plants stay in place. They even expand when conditions near the healthy soil we once enjoyed having. They build healty plants able to withstand slight unballances and they largely heal themselves.

The chemistry of man works just opposite to the biology of nature. I find it interesting that with all our improved and easily aviable data that we continue to overlook these basics and even work to further harm them or destroy them.

Google puts all this data at the fingertips of anyone who would take the time to dig in, read up and go to work on his or her half acre so to speak. The smaller growers can achieve good healthy soil in just two or three years and go from there to make it even better.

I have at least one (probably more) acquaintance who does flower/landscape gardening with chemicals - for a number of years, but I don't know how many, exactly. If I were to convince this person to go organic, the annual beds would be no problem. But the established perennials beds - how would you convert them from chemical to organic? Wouldn't you have to take everything out, ammend the soil, and put them back in? (I don't grow perennials myself, so I apologize if the answer to that question is obvious to those that do.)

docgipe - your first paragraph in your response was a perfect explanation for me. I daresay that most people's eyes might glaze over - but I was able to follow you. I agree that it is actually a pretty simple matter of observation once you make the change to organic. When your soil tends to writhe, you know you are moving in the right direction!

Thanks for the great explanation.

indy--no need to rip everything out and start from scratch, once you stop with the chemicals and start gardening organically the soil will improve and come back to being healthy over time. If you're wanting to grow edibles then I'd probably build a raised bed for now to make sure that any leftover chemicals don't get into the food, but for ornamentals you can take the slow patient approach to things. It's sort of like what happens when you stop eating junk food and switch to eating healthy--your problems won't be solved overnight, but over time your body will become healthier, same thing happens with the soil.

Jungleman: Agreed. That first paragraph struck a chord with me as well. It brings to mind the gardener I know who tried to do everything organic, botched it, and in frustration recently dumped a bunch of miracle grow on her plants. They're growing freakishly fast - I've never seen marigolds that tall and skinny in my life - but she's losing the veggies to disease and pests just as quickly. I noticed all of this, but until I read doc's post, I didn't see the bigger picture of what was going on. Her extreme measures caused the plants to grow in abnormal ways and left the vulnerable. Apply that concept in a wider sense to what's going on in traditional agriculture and yeah, I see the problem. Thank's for your insightful explanation, doc.

ecrane: She doesn't grow veggies. So I could advise her to take a soil sample and ammend the soil around the plants - instead of dumping it on top and tilling it in as we would on a veggie garden when everything's done for the season - and go from there? (I guess I should poke around and find the answer to my own question because eventually - within the next few years, I hope - I'll be growing perennials as well.)

For my perennial beds I have used once ground wood and bark mulch for the past thirty five or more years. Yes even on the iris where most will say ney so Doc not on iris. Sorry but that is what I do. It could be called no till and permanent mulch. I run an average of two to four inches deep at all times. I'll try to remember to shoot a pix in a day or two which will show one of my beds that is the oldest....like since day one some thirty five years ago. This year once ground mulch was not available in good condition so I put on less twice ground wood and bark about two inches thick. This will hold the beds nicely for a couple of years. I use no fertilizer except orgainc low numbers like 4-2-4 and very little if any of that too. I do feed my blue berry plants with a mix for acid loving plants again low numbers and just a little to encourage new growth where the fruit are formed. The rotting over a long term returns more than enough for most perennials.
I have a thistle bird planted site that I use spot treatment of Round Up. Against the purist rules but my only answer to this pest. If I ever get enough of the roots killed I would not do this for most other occasional weeds that show. They get pulled, tramped down and covered with a bit more mulch. I make no effort to be perfect just nice at a glance. An occasional weed is of no concern to me up to an emotional point. Half an hour a week takes care of most of them.

Glad I may have been able to clear up some thinking in an easy to read general sense. Look for my pix here within a day or so.

To the soil test suggestion. This is sometimes fun but really does not tell you a lot worth knowing unless there is a big problem existing. Just shoot for increasing organic content in your beds. This may involve light tilling in of some leaves for a year or two with a light mulch that could be pulled aside and then recover with a mulch. Rule of thumb....Don't let the sun, wind and running water foul your attempt to build a better soil. In short order your native worms will do the tilling for you and a better job of it too.

She does use mulch, so she should have a good start. Now all I have to do is convince her to make the switch! Not that it's any of my business, but in a way, it is. And I do believe that we can make big chances by starting on an individual level - educating and spreading the word.

Thanks again for the info. I'll check back for your pics.

THIRTY FIVE PLUS YEARS UNDER PERMANENT MULCH

This bed has five hundred or more spring bulbs, a blueberry bush, a peach tree, several fruiting shrubs, Dutch Iris, Sedum Autum Joy, four or five peonies and just a few thistles peeping through the three to four inch ground wood mulch. Shrubs in the background belong to my neighbor.

This bed has been no till under permanent ground wood and wood bark for nearly forty years.

:o) It seems to be working out quite well.

A quick question for docgipe on compost tea: Does this work quickly or does it take some time for the soil to feel the effects? The reason why I ask is that I have all the ingredients to make it - I got them earlier this summer- and now I'm wondering if I need to wait till spring or if it is safe enough to use it now. I don't want to promote a lot of growth now with fall underway.

Sure....I would use compost tea or any other teas of choice to help any leaves and manures you may be adding in the fall. It will also help your cover crop get a good start. To feed your biological army use six ounces of black strap molasses in a gallon of water as you do your fall prep. Put them to bed with lots of work to do and a full belly for the strength to do it.

Your plants only pick up food when they need it. When the food is not chemistry that excites fast growth little if any harm can be done by applying compost tea anytime. Blood and chicken manure may be a bit hot to be using while plants are in the final stages of their growth. Even they going in with your fall prep would not be of any concern.

Hello,
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.

"Abundance doens not meant that the food we eat contains sufficient amounts of needed elements and vitamins," says Dr. Melchoir Dikkers of Loyola University. "There is no doubt that malnutrition is the most important problem confronting mankind at the present time."
"Plants that are chemically fertilized may look lush, but lush growth produces watery tissues, which become more susceptible to disease, and the protein quality suffers." (Bird and Tompkins, Secrets of the Soil, 1989).

Every two seconds a child dies of starvation; a staggering sixty million adults die each year. The United States, despite its increased food production, is grossly undernourished. And, though the per capita expenditure on healthcare in teh United States is the highest in the world, so is the evidence of cancer, obesity, heart, and circulatory diseases. (Bird and Tompkins).

Natural fertilizers supply the important plant nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium (N-P-K), which help lawns, and plants create rich color and deep roots. In addition, N-P-K promote vigorous growth, which improves disease and stress resistance.

Naturally managed lawns cycle nutrients efficiently, which helps prevent a buildup of thatch - an accumulation at the soil surface of dead, but undecomposed, stems and leaves. Importantly, grass clippings do not contribute to thatch - in fact, cycling grass clippings can annually provide a lawn with as much as two pounds of additional nitrogen per thousand square fee; a nice boost of free nutrients. (Frank Rossi, Ph.D. 1995. Green Thumb Project. University of Wisconsin Madison, Madison, Wisconsin.

Soil Enrichment:
Natural Organic fertilizer 4-3-3 is naturally time released. Soil microbes metabolize complex compounds to make them available to plants. As a result, nutrients are released when they are in the greatest demand, providing only the nutrients that plants need when they need them.

Whether you're an experienced gardener or a beginner, a nurseryman, landscaper, or farmer, ? ORGANIC products produce high yields and quality growth by stimulating the biological activity in the soil which provides a continuous release of nutrients as the plants need them. ? Organic products are useful during soil preparation, planting, transplanting, and plant growth. In addition to the macronutrients, Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium (N-P-K), ? ORGANIC products contain micronutrients, growth hormones, chelating agents, vitamins and humus which provide A BALANCED NUTRITIONAL PROGRAM FOR PLANTS AND THE CREATURES IN THE SOIL.

Chemical fertilizers can't do these things. They tend to destroy the soil and the biological activity that occurs there in.

LOL Had to add........ I think I put in my 25 cents worth. ;-)

Nice of you to document the quality loss our foods have suffered as a result of the poison salt based man made fertilizers and the liquids too that all should be labeled "WARNING BIOCIDES". It has been determined that biological harm may take place and human illnesses can be encouraged by eating food produced with these chemicals.

It's truly sad that we (myself included) have eaten things that we just don't realize are there.

I recently had a conversation with the mother of my great niece... She was saying that her 10 year old was going through the beginning of puberty. I have heard MUCH lately about the early onset of puberty in todays youth. They contribute it to the artificial additives (hormones) we are receiving via the food we eat and drink.

I really wish I had been raised "organic". Am thinking much more about what I eat and drink. I guess "better late than never" applies here.

Eating with an awareness of the food's content, where and how it was grown is indeed an art. Working together without getting insane over the issues we think we may achieve the purchase and use of about seventy five percent good healthy food elements.

One of our recent surprises was to find some organically grown popcorn. Wow! One does not need a test kitchen lab to know the goodness factor of this item. I went back and bought our yearly needs of popcorn. We also signed up for a like amount in 2009. That's one way we controll our supply. We buy a test package. Like it....... go get at least a half years supply and freeze it.

Wow, where does a body find organic popcorn?

There is so much I have to learn about "EATING RIGHT"... after many, many years of not doing so. I did give up sugar (starches, and other wise) for approximately one year (long while back) due to hypoglycemia... I felt SOOOOO much better. Unfortunately, I let it slip back into my diet. YUCK!!!!!!

I found our pop corn at a farmer's market where the Dutch bring their wares. They grow a few acres of open polinated pop corn on or in good organic soil. I have not looked but health food stores may have organic......almost anything.

I'll have to do some checking. There is a little store north and west of us a bit. They carry a lot of gluten free and organic items. I'll check with them.

hi--amuckey--whose 4-3-3 natural organic fertilizer are you referring to?

Fertrel is the oldest and largest organic garden and farm supplier in America. They are on line with their catalog and a list of dealers. My favorite and regular use item is their 4 - 2 - 4.

Hello Daylilyman,

The fertilizer I was referring to is one that we sell and after reading the guidelines, for posting in forums and blogs, decided I'd better not mention the name as it would be SELF PROMOTION. There is a link to it on my home page though. :-)

Indy_v - I have a friend who has changed from using chemical fertilizers to 'a horse-manure/sawdust compost mixture" and has mulched her perennial landscape with it. Its mounded around the shrubs or plants, leaving the base of the plant exposed like normal. In two years, these shrubs have grown and come alive and they are all they can be right now. THe organic material settles in , seeps its nutrients into the soil and it looks great! The plants just love it! This horse manure compost comes from an equine center that has moved it 3 times into different bins till its in its finished stage and has lost the bad smell. Every spring we might add some flowers and more mulch. Its the best thing since sliced bread!! This equine center is just next door but you can use other types of animal manure just the same.

I love organic gardening, I learned about it 40 years ago when I found Organic Gardening magazine, and have been practicing it since then.
Working with Nature is the only way to garden.
Josephine.

I changed from chemical type fertilizers and pesticides to organic practices about 5 years ago. I never saw any "withdrawl" type symptoms in established plants. I simply stopped using chemicals and started with organics. I use little actual fertilizer and simply rely more on compost and using organic mulches like lasagna gardening, grass clippings, straw, leaves, etc. It has worked out very well.

Unfortunately, since my friends know I'm a gardener, sometimes gifts still include things like Miracle Grow in baskets of gardens tools and gloves and the like. I accept them graciously and use up small amounts of MG in potted plants only. Then I compost those plants and the potting mix at the end of the season.

Karen

Many good points on this thread, I hope I can add to them. I'm curious to know what exactly is meant by "man-made" "chemical" fertilizers. The fertilizers I deal with are a combination of naturally occurring, inorganic materials (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, etc.) Nothing manmade about those. Plants don't eat organic material, they, and all living things, eat inorganic materials like those noted above. Therefore, your organic materials must be converted to their constituent inorganic compounds to be of any use. Those of you who are container gardeners will find that organic is even more inefficient, since container media usually lacks the necessary microbial elements necessary to break down organics.

It's much better to use a sensible regime of non-organic feeding to provide the necessary nutrients. You may say: "they contain things like EDTA." True, EDTA makes certain things like calcium and iron easier for a plant to absorb. But again, it's the way in which these compounds are used that determine both the health of the plant, what is taken up by the plant's tissue and the residue that's left to run into the water table. A heavy use of organic material can do as much harm to the environment as a heavy use of inorganic fertilizers because of the inherent inefficiency of the conversion of the organic material to its useful components. If it's not used by the plant when the plant needs it, it either build up in the soil or leaches to places where the plant cannot use it, such as your water table.

Efficiency of nutrient delivery is the key; put the plant in charge of its own nutrient needs. Don't give plants more than they need for healthy growth; more is not always better than less. You then begin to compare apples to apples.