Compost First Timer

I bought a nice compost bin at Costco but I don't know if I started it right. I dumped all of my raked leaves, kitchen scraps, old newspapers and some earthworms that were under dead leaves, is there anything else I need to do to get that magic black dirt. It won't be possible for me to turn it because it's a big deep bin. How long of a process is it?

Thank you for the help.

Welcome to the wonderful world of composting and to the Soil and Compost thread. There are some incredibly knowledgeable folks here who know "from soil"! It sounds as if you are off to a great start with your materials. Grass clippings are another readily available material you can toss in to help heat up the pile and speed up the process. Just leaving the pile undisturbed is called "passive composting," and it can take a year or more for things to rot enough to form dark, crumbly compost. Tossing your materials as you layer more in--mixing in air and adding water--speeds things up considerably and can reduce the time a lot. Are you sure that there is no way with your new bin to fork the compost over and add some water occasionally?

Kikki, sounds like your on the right track. CapeCodGardener, is right. Turning a little every so often will help.

I found a big stick in the yard I couldn't turn everything but I sure beat it. I was wondering if I need to buy earthworms to help. Oh, I'm also picking up some horse doo this weekend to throw in there, is that a good thing to do.

Thanks

Kikki, be care ful of the horse poo, if the horses have been wormed, then it is in the poo, and will kill your earth worms, as well as some other.Thats all I can add, because CapeCodGardener has said it all.Mike

Yikes, I won't take the chance. Do you think I can get buy earthworms at the bait stores to dump in my compost bin?

Thanks Mike

I obtained my worms as you have said, and I have plenty.I make a bin of 3'x8' every 5months, and keep expanding the number of bins.At presant there is six bins.The secrete is with the worms.Mike

Thank you I will go to a bait/tackle store this weekend.

The most concern about worming fouling horse manure is a concern for a few days after the worming if at all. After that there will be little if any pass through. I use horse manure by the truck loads. Mushroom growers use horse manure and course sawdust to grow most of the mushrooms you purchase on the market. If there were significant pass through the use of horse manure would be stopped. Those chemicals are leaching from the soil and going down stream all the time. None will stay in your compost or gardens long term.

There are many times more dangerous chemicals in petro based fertilizers commonly in commercial use to grow foods we eat as well as commonly placed on our yards and public display plantings.

Most animals including humans have worms and sometimes need chemicals to reduce or eliminate their presence to bring about a healthier body.

Thanks DocPipe I will do both ....earthworm and horse manure ... my weekend will be very busy (LOL)

I'm not a compost expert as some of the people here most definitely are, but I will second, or third, that worms are key. I was on this forum four months ago decrying the fact that I could find no worms, not a one, on my property. I started building some small lasagne style beds with wood chips, compost, kitchen scraps, leaf mould, and alfalfa meal. All of a sudden I had worms everytime I put my trowel in the soil. Probably, they were here to begin with and were deep in the soil for the winter, but the organic materials I put down sure did appeal to them, and they are now here working the soil in satisfying numbers. Someone told me, "Just put the stuff down and they'll find it." And boy it didn't take them long.

Yea fer Pamgarden.....................They say being an expert is being fifty miles from home and saying anything the listener really wants to hear. If you were to have nerve to do it your basic compost making and gardening techniques would be more than enough to please nine out of ten gardeners.

Your surprise at finding the worms reminds me of the eight year old optimist digging about in the old horse stable. The dumplings were flying out the windows and doors when along came his psychologist. Within a few minutes the lad was slowed down and the onsite child doctor session began with the most important question. Sammy just what in the world kind of fun do you find in this bisquet tossing game? The lad responded, "with all this horse poo in here there has to be a pony somewhere".

You keep building the organic content of that soil doing just what you are doing and the worm population will increase even futhrer. Counting your worms is one of the best ways to measure your soil building success.

Remineralization would be a good next step because it needs to be done just a little each year after the first year or two. Several things you could consider....Fertrell's Azomite, Ironite's low nitrogen granular product and greensand. The trace elements in any or all of these will replace or bring to any soil the minor trace elements that build the soil. None of them needs to be tilled in. They will drop into the soil as the rains leach through your layers. Immediate results will not be noticed. Just do it and know it is a very good way to build a more healthy soil. Does not matter when or how you apply it. I would think in terms of half a bag or about twenty to twenty five pounds per one thousand square feet of garden....spring and fall the first year and second year. After that half a bag a year for two or three years. Then half a bag every other year. There are about sixty five known minor trace minerals that most don't even know exist.

Hear, hear Pam! I totally agree that nature can figure things out for itself. I raise butterflies and I'm always telling the folks over in the butterfly forum, "if you plant the host plants, they will come." Same with the worms. Of course, if someone really wants to get their composting jumpstarted, a trip to the bait shop is one way to do it. But even if you're a lazy gardener like me, the worms will show up! My worms are hiding right now; I think because it's so dry. Hopefully, our summer rains will start soon and then I'll be "rescuing" them off the pavement.

What I love is seeing worms in places where I never used to see them. I tore out a huge patch of invasives (Brazilian Pepper, skunk vine) out of the backyard a few years ago and built a bromeliad garden. During all that digging and pulling I never saw worms. But now that I've planted lots of bromeliads and improved the overall health of that area, I see worms all the time!

Melanie

Kikki,

All the advice here is very good. I've read many of the post here.
Please understand that there is more than one method of composting.

In this thread, I believe we are talking about more than one method. If you are going to use worms, which is a good choice.
Then you should know that the conditions of their environment should be considered.

I'm not sure what kind of bin you have but if you fill it to the top and there are lots of nitrogen rich materials in the bin its likely to get to hot for your worms.

I have a few wooden outdoor bins that I use for my grass clippings and old chicken coop bedding. Actually about anything gets tossed in and the temperatures reached in those bins exceeds 130 degrees.

I also have an indoor worm bin that gets news paper, cardboard veggie scraps etc.

The outdoor bins get turned regularly, and with the right mix of materials, air and water it don't take long to make compost.

The worms are a lot of fun but they could perish if you don't consider the proper moisture and air level of the bin.

Check out the Vermicomposting forum here and do some reading before you start your worms in the bin.

Just to reinforce what others have posted here the worms do come when you bury your materials in the ground.

wthex

I was worried about worms not being in mine when I first started it. But everyone here said if I feed it, they will come. If I put a fork in the compost about a thousand earthworms come out, (Well, maybe not a thousand. I was getting compost out today and they were even on my shoes.

I've never seen so many fat worms. My grandkids had a ball the other day when I was working in one of my flower beds. The worms were the funniest things they ever saw, so the twins got spoons and would dig into the dirt and laugh and count worms. yuk.

But everyone is right, they'll find the compost, may come from another state, but they'll find it.

Thanks,you guys, for the worm tips when I started mine

And just wait and then giggle when one of those kids or both eat one. Not to worry. I ate my last big nightwalker and a live goldfish inroute to a fraternity membership at Shippensburg University. That was 54 years ago and I'm still living. :)

Want high protein bisquets or cup cakes add chopped earth worms for half the other chopped fruit. Earthworms are fair survival food for all who have had the training.

Oh my , I'll never eat again. I'll be thinking about worms in my food.!!! I have a cousin who used to raise earth worms in an extra bathroom. I'd have nightmares if I spent the night, thinking about those crawly things getting in the bed or climbing up walls.

So you did the goldfish thing, huh? Closest I got to "being cool, was how many people you could get in a phone booth. You remember those, don't you. My kids look at me like I'm nuts when I say "phone booth"

I've never eaten a worm that I know of. But I did drink tequila shots poured from a bottle with the worm in the bottom :-) That was quite a few years ago, too.

Karen

Me too, ahhh the misadventures of youth, we hope our kids never find out about.!!! lol

I raised two boys..................One bothered me because he did not raise enough ruckus and I raised one that raised the family bar on every limit ever set or observed to any given point. Both have proven they are more than ready and able to meet the world on their terms today mostly independent of their parents. Both are raising their kids while raising the bar on family traditions as they grow. They were and the are independent and ready to face whatever comes down.

LOL, I have two boy who were just like that!!!!

Doc, Well I wondered what people meant when they said, "There's a pony in the pile". What a hoot! I have greensand. I think it's a 20 lb bag--need to check. I wasn't sure what to do with it since it came from the feed store (a totally new place to shop for me) without instructions. I also got two 50 lb bags of alfalfa meal. I almost choked the first time I tried to put that down. It was quite windy that day and it blew back in my face. Since then, I've wet it before using it and am not applying as liberally in new beds. My concern is overdoing the NPK thing, especially N by applying too much in one spot. I'm building beds about 4 sq ft at a time as I can manage physically. I know this isn't the most efficient way to do it, but since it's only me, I get to make a bed, let it rest for about two weeks and then use it. There is alot of tramping back and forth with buckets of wood chips and leaf mould and those 50 lb bags might as well be 150 lb weights. I think that the undisturbed area of our property is probably pretty healthy. It's the area around the house that was disturbed and compacted during construction, and the foreign soil that was brought in to raise the grade around the house that I'm working to improve.

Melanie, I raised monarchs, yellow swallowtails, and black spicebush in Orlando, and hope to do it here when my garden appeals to them.

Lorraine, 1000 worms per trowel? Oh you lucky girl!

A few years ago I would never have thought that worms would trump a new pair of strappy sandals. Sandals just don't cut it anymore.

With the exception of blood meal you can hardly overdo the use of organic meals. A hand full here and a hand full there is nice and easy going for all gardening in general. On a four by four foot bed when planting anything a handfull in the potting hole mixed into the loose soil is a great starting boost that will not introduce to much NPK. The same reasoning applied to man made fertilizers would most certainly be to much. I make a half bucket full of mixed meals and use a handfull of compost with a handfull of mixed meals in the planting hole. I do make those holes about gallon size for the best results even for a single tomato plant. Right at or just after planting I lay in two inches of mulch....usually leaves or spoiled hay and straw....whatever I have at the time.

About six weeks later I use the Alaska kelp and fish tea to spray the foliar applications with ample run off to the soil. If you use a lot of tea Fertrell's products in gallons up to two and a half gallon containers of fish and kelp is much more economical. They have it individually and combo packaged. That's pretty much all I do except for competition plants which get so much attention it is outside the common box we normally think of. Flowers of all types need very little fertilization and get little if any of this goodness added when transplanting . On the other hand if you have an edge or a wall you want to be covered and falling over the edge go back to the handfull of mixed meals and compost.....and give them the follow up six weeks later with the fish and kelp liquid tea. This will give you healthy normally growing flowers with the use of no chemical fertilization what so ever. If you are into making your own teas from manures or compost just add a little fish or kelp to your compost or manure teas. Water it down to tea color and use it when watering either as a drench or a foliar spray with run off to the soil.

Just watch your plants. If they get lush and move towards darker green than normal back off or reduce the strength of the teas by more dilution. Common observation is a better guide than any other way to use fertilizers. Let the plants talk to you!

Doc, My newly planted starts and small nursery pots are tending toward more lush foliage as you mention. In particular is a pineapple salvia that has the most gorgeous foliage with growth that is observable overnight. I just wonder whether it will have flowers with all that nitrogen. I have lightened up on the percentage of alfalfa to other components because I think I was overdoing it. My current usage is more like you've recommended. I haven't tried the manure teas, although I've seen other postings of yours discussing making aerobic and nonaerobic brews. I have some Neptune's Promise (I think it's called) but it's well over a year old. I will purchase some Fertrell's and try it. In Florida, I used the water from my goldfish pond which seemed like a real tonic as a foliar feed, of course the kelp element wasn't present. Thank you for your help, as always sound information backed by personal experience.

Atta boy! Let those plants talk to you. It's better than charts and estimates made by jock'os like me. Those charts and estimates are good places to hang around more or less until measured up to personal experience.

Incidently..........the Fertrell catalog, on line is a gold mine of basic organic information and guidelines on what each package contains and what the individual parts are and contain. They make no wild and unrealistic claims....and they never have.

Be sure that you know what the medication schedule is for the animals whose compost you're using. If the manure is fresh and the goats or horses or whatever have just been wormed, then there will be large doses of medication as well as the parasites in the manure.

Dogs can inherit a sensitivity to Ivermection worming medication if they have some herding dog breeds in their ancestry. This sensitivity also extends to other kinds of meds that are sometimes given to dogs. Read more here:

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/

I nixed the horse manure a long time ago. I'm planning on getting more worms and I dumped some wet leaves and a little bit of peat moss.

It's great stuff. I got some 6-month old horse manure from a neighbor. It had absolutely no smell and the number of red worms in each little bit was phenomenal. If you can find a place to keep it and let it rot, then it's worth its weight in gold, imo.

In most cases, if you compost with something rich - either manure or kitchen scraps - it's been my experience that the red wigglers will just show up. Not exactly sure where they come from, but they seem to find you.

Katie, You're right, where do they come from? My clay soil is hard to get a pick ax through, but those worms get throught it. It's amazing!

You know you're a confirmed gardener when you get all excited about poop and worms. LOL

Spreading the fear of manure bears some serious thinking......Most all animals including we humans have pass through meds and other chemicals associated with raising food. The most dangerous are not those chemicals given as medication.

Most all animals including you and I have worms and sometimes must use meds. Those meds do not......"DO NOT" cause any significant harm to the condition or result of using normal amounts on the soil. What does cause harm is the consistant nuking of the soil with man made fertilizers and other biocides known as insecticides, fungicides, herbicides and all the other poisons associated with the raising of our foods world wide. Excepting the views of an absolute purist the small manure content is so minor compaired, to other poisons, in our environment even, in the air we breath. E-Coli is the big bad scare word. E-Coli is alive and well in most "MOST" soils and within the bodies of most living animals including the human animal.

Go right ahead making your compost with any manure you can find and use in reasonable amounts and the next time you see a bird pooping thank it for the deposit and understand that it can and more than likely does contain a balanced amount of all soil content and needs. This includes the pathegons.

There is no reason given time and learning of the associated soil building skills that any back yard gradener or small truck farmer needs to use much if any of those harsh chemicals. Each indivdual can do as much or as little as determined to make sense on an individual basis.

OK ... I'm getting 4 chickens - one rooster and three hens ... it's official... and more worms. I still can't turn my stuff ... the bin is too steep and full. To turn it I'd need a pitchfork and a ladder. Do I really need to turn it?

that has been argued by all.Accordind to Mike Mcgroity, a well know grower, and adviser, who never turns his compost.He piles it, and as it slides to the ground he uses what is at the front of the pile, and adds new material at the top, and lets it work down.I supose there is way more than one right way of composting.For what its worth, I turn mine, but thats as theraputic as I can get sometimes, like a kid looking at what he has in savings, etc...

I heard if you don't turn it something happens but can't remember what - how long will it take before it turns into black gold.

Like I said, I turn mine often, and found that by adding4" perferated drain pipe cut to height, and standing upright, the mix breaks down faster, because they get more air to aid in decomposition.Mine is ready to use in about five mounths.Mike

It depends on all the usual variables- your C:N ratio, weather (temp- will it freeze?), moisture, air available... I'd guess a year or more if you don't do anything but pile it up and let it rot.

Karen

I think it will vary a lot with location. In Georgia Mike might get compost in 5 months, but in MA it will freeze for a good part of the year and take a lot longer.

Karen

Good thinking Karen, I would guess that to be the situation most places, if all you did was pile it, and let it slide.The one I mentioned can be found in Ohio, and has a web sight that I find most informing.Go to "free plants.com", and you to can read all about propagation, and composting, and any other gardening idea.I recomend it.Mike

No question about the pipes in the pile..... They will speed up the process. I use tree downfall limbs and twigs and count on them to maintain some air circulation. Presently I do little turning. That is with the full awarness that it will take longer. Each pile is different but mine are geared to make compost on a yearly basis. Turning it and adding the elements to make it heat faster will speed up any pile. I still give mine a dose of black strap molasses several times a year and of course I add to the piles all summer. My only dig or turn is when I use it today. When I was younger I enjoyed seeing how fast I could make it. Now I am half fast. :)

I got it docgipe! I am too at some things!!!

Doug