People with sick chicks from McMurray

Please see this post, may have an answer!
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=39749

Wow!

I don't know if I am relieved. I am a bit upset that there is no cure.

Yes, but at least we know what we are dealing with here. I am going to continue them on their multi vitamins, and I even added echinacea to their water. maybe add fresh spinach and or other greens.

The avian vet I spoke with at length said that it is possible that some chicks may not die from AE. However, they will have chronic complications as a result and never fully recover. Additionally, any chicks not showing symptoms that have been exposed to infected chicks should show signs within no more than four weeks, but likely 10 days or less. If they do not develop symptoms then either both their parents were vaccinated or they both had been field exposed, thereby giving all offspring full immunity to the disease. As for adding new chicks to the mix now, the strong and immune will survive, the weak will be susceptible, and become infected, and should be culled from the flock. I am going to euthanize all the chicks showing symptoms, although I wish this were just a bad dream. My 75 chicks arriving this week are going to be put in with the rest of the chicks and I will pray for them...Scott

ok if we and MMH now know what it is , , , have they done what needs to be done for chicks that have not been shipped yet or will we still get sick chicks from them? On byc someone got chicks Sunday that have already started dying. Help!

Not having gotten any chicks this year from MMH, I am none the less glad that we have this forum to consult and finding out about the other people with sick chicks is a God send. Just think, if it wasn't for Dave's, some of us may not known about the diseased chicks and thought it was our fault they died.

So, thanks Dave!!

Please remember that the vet I spoke with didn't see or test my chicks. He is going on my interpretation of what is happening, and based on one confirmed necropsy of chicks from MM that were hatched the same week as mine, and the same week that MM is admitting that SOMETHING went wrong with MANY orders. He is so certain I have an AE virus present, that he doesn't even want to have my chicks tested, and will only do so to ease my mind if that is what I request. I don't need the test to ease my mind. Until the results of more testing comes in and MM pinpoints the root cause, there is still too little data to prove beyond a doubt that this is what is killing mine, and many other peoples chicks. I tend to sway in the direction that it is AE which my chicks have contracted before they got to me (I'm 99.99999999% sure) but there is still the possibility that something else is wrong. That being said, MM should be able to say without question once they have eliminated the problem, and until then, I wouldn't dream of getting my replacements sent out.

Here is my quote from BYC that may have some useful info for someone. I didn't want to type it all out again so I just copy-pasted it.
Carousel,
After speaking with the vet, it became apparent that only a live chick with the virus should be brought in for testing, as they will need to look at the brain, which undergoes many significant changes rapidly after death. These changes offer obstacles for accurate results. He did not mention how long a chick would be contagious, but I read somewhere online today that the virus remains stable in feces for up to four weeks.
I will clean up my brooder one more time once I have euthanized the sick chicks, in anticipation that the new chicks will have a reasonable chance of survival. But this brings us right back to the starting dilemna. If the new chicks had parents that were exposed/immunized, then the chicks are immune. If the chicks are not immune, and become exposed when they get here, they will either contract the virus or become immune through exposure. The chicks that do not contract after exposure will be my future breeders, ensuring that my future offspring will be immune. The others will be culled.
The vaccine is too volatile for small breeders to use, and the vet advised that only large scale breeders routinely vaccinate against it. Which leads to another issue for the hatchlings from eggs that I have purchased from all over the country. I doubt any of those breeders have vaccinated for AE, so likely some of my home-hatched chicks will succumb to it as well. This may likely devastate my Serama flock, which is a breed not offered by any large scale hatcheries, therefore most likely not immune to AE. At this time, none of my Serama chicks are showing symptoms, and they were hatched 5 days prior to the MM chicks arrival. They have been living together the whole time, and the vet advised that after 18 days if they haven't contracted, they are probably not going to.

Scott, you are certainly on a steep learning curve, and dragging the rest of us after you. All the books I read say to quarentine new birds away from your established flocks for a certain period of time, but I doubt many do. If your Serama remain healthy, does that mean they were exposed and so their chicks will be immune--or did they just escape infection? I wonder if there is a titre test? Probably too expensive. It is scary that eggs can arrive infected. And that the symptoms take so long to develop. I guess waitng 3 weeks to introduce new birds to the flock is time well spent. At least it doesn't seem terribly contagious--basic hygiene and quarentining should stop it.

This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:01 PM

Wow is all I can say about this. I was going to order from them, then went with who I did last year (more unusual breeds) so all chicks should be culled because they will carry the virus for life? Should anyone be taking the chance on spreading the virus to the others. Aren't most viruses kept alive in the soil etc?
Its sad so many of you have to go thru such an ordeal, I hope everything works out in the end. I will definitely quarantine my chicks in a separate space than my pets (cats, parrots and dogs)

my mind is working a bit slow in regards to this....just sounds horrible
i have an order placed with mcmurray for end of april...right now it sounds like i'd be better suited (as well as my current feathered friends) to order from someone else

LoraK, can I ask who you ordered from? I have an order from MMH due next week and can't decide to cancel or not. Calling again today to find out more info . . . hopefully I can decide what to do then. I hate gray areas!

I ordered again this from Ideal. Every one of the chickens I ordered last year are alive and happy today! This year I posted a couple places so others that couldn't make the min. could get some unusual chickies too. They are nice I have added and added to my order.

i just cancelled my order with mcmurray & ideal is the one i ended up ordering from for week of 5 may

i will be getting some goslings & ducklings in two weeks from them, so fingers crossed all goes well

a friend of mine still has all of her chickens from ideal that she ordered last year, so they are sounding good :-)

i feel a little less stressed.....just means i'll find something else to stress about like the eggs one of my geese is sitting on from time to time as well as eggs for one of the ducks....spring will bring lot's of babies!

Hope you get flocks of babies!!!!!

me too!

the ducks are likely to be plaid with the various mixes :-)

larlienda, We ordered from Ideal and recieved our first set of chicks from them a week ago. They are all well and good so far. Very happy little birds growing like crazy and trying to fly. I hope you have good luck and get healthy babies.

Has anyone ordered from Xtremebirds? Their prices are far better than the other seller I found for Jersey Giants. Their shipping was only $15.00 as oppose to her $48.00 minimum.

MollyD

Does anyone know if Ideal and Welp have breeders vaccinated for AE? I have 20 chicks from Ideal coming tomorrow and 40 from Welp on Wednesday.

i can highly & cofidentally recommrnd xtreme, just can't spell with one hand soory... they are in elgin, near ideal. & they are family owned, NPIP, breeders, very clean, etc. you will need to ask [any hatchery] about vaccination.

i agree with SilkieChick. USDA nneds to clean MMH out. sad but necessary biosecurity. MMH is facing big losses. naturally theyy won't give out any incxriminating info or suggest cancveling.

anyone who takes the time can find what they want locally. & you have to ask lots of questions, people rarely volunteer thaty info.

ask for NPIP cert # & number of years. ask if all eggs are from their own birds or from oursaide sources. ONE outside source of eggs, when hatched with inside eggs, will contaminate ALL.

i am glad to be done with hatcheries for the time. i won't continue swapping eggs with unknown sources either...

for us, with heritage breeding birds, we are not taking any risks. period.

good luck to everyone. i'll be watching to see how this comes out...

regards,
tf

a few years ago the inspector from the dept of regulations showed up at our farm and wanted to see our flock. Said he had been testing out eggs at a store we'd been selling them to and each week we passed with 100%. Said he had never had eggs test 100% and never for weeks on end. He had to come and see for himself what we were doing.

He got out of his car and, of course, we were amused (not surprised) at the fact that our eggs consistently had good ratings. But when he said he wanted to go in the barn, my DH said....(nonchalantly)....have you visited other farms today? He said yes. My husband stopped dead in his tracks and told him to turn around and get back in his car.

The inspector asked what the problem was. DH said, you are an inspector and you come to my farm from another farm and want to go into my barn with no protection? You put no coveralls on, nothing over your shoes and you are not entering my barn and infecting my flock. I think he was impressed that my husband was so adamant about it and he got in his car and left. We never heard from him again.

He did tell us he had to inspect a major chicken house (one of the well known egg producers in the supermarket) and that it was not pretty. I won't mention names.

;) Stick to your guns! Kathy

my Ag guy always wears disposable protectors!

That inspector should have known better! Good for your husband!!

MollyD

This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:08 PM

maineiac, I know Ideal has two seals on their site that says U.S. Avain Influenza free and U.S Pullorum typhoid free. So I assume they take measures to insure they are.
We have chicks we got a week ago from them and so far all are well.

I'm so sorry all you guys are having troubles with a virus.....and McMurray should be shut down until it tests clean.Guess I was lucky years ago
never had a problem

Any new birds should ALWAYS be quarrentined..chicks or adults!
When my birds come home from shows they are put into a separate building for 2 weeks

Biosecurity....Don't let ANYONE in your barns
Not even your best friend,neighbor Joe or the babysitter
You don't know where their shoes and hands have been

if you are selling birds,catch the bird to be sold and put it in a cage AWAY from your barn
Chances are if they are buying birds they already have birds,or their shoes have been where birds have been

the virus threat is bad, but it could be worse....you could be dealing with AI
and never forget...migrating water fowl carry it
Your best friend could have been walking thru a park where
migrating waterfowl have been,steps in dodo...its on the shoes and goes where ever the shoe goes
plus those migrating birds may have visited a farm and been infected with lord knows what

The best course of action in mho is vaccinate
but you have to do it every year because with certain viruses the birds then become carriers....I faced this with coryza....now they get vaccinated along with larango...but thats required in some states for showing
In Pa and some east coast states a test for AI is required too

good luck to you all and hoping for the best for all your babies

This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 9:02 PM

Back when I had my cockatiels I carried a small bottle of hand sanitizer in case I handled someone's birds. It let me get back in my house without touching things and leaving germs. Then I could strip and shower before approaching my own birds. Saved a lot of grief.

MollyD

Geez, I am in a funk about this. After getting my MM chicks,
I also hatched out 3 quail and 6 home grown chicks. before
I knew what this was (prob is) I put the sick bird in the the
younger, home hatched, so they could get food and water.
The quail and chicks are 4 weeks old now, and none are
showing any symptoms of anything, let alone the ones my
MM chicks had. I am thankful for that. I ended up losing 7
of 26 chicks from MM.
I posted some questions in Maine's thread, and just fouond this, so I'm re-posting my questions. I am still unclear about what to do with rest of my
healthy birds?

I looked at BYC and read about the AE and the
'suspect' hatchery. What do you think I should do with the
rest of my chicks from MM? I lost some of all 3 breeds,
Polish Crested, Ameraucana and Cochins, all standard.
My highest mortality was in the cochins. Several of the cochins
that did not show symptoms are small and what I thought
was just 'petite' I can now say, are not thrifty. They forage,
eat, all that, but are smaller than the others. My remaining
polish are all healthy looking. The amer's are doing the best,
being vigorous and with good size. Do you know if these
remaining can be vaccinated against AE? Are they going to
pass the AE or immuntity to their chicks?

This message was edited Mar 21, 2008 4:19 PM

truest I think I would wait it out and keep the suspect birds all together (along with those they've already been exposed to) apart from any other birds you've got. No point in destroying them if they aren't positively ailing and you sure don't want to risk others by introducing the ones not showing symptoms into areas with healthy birds. If any start to show signs of illness I would move them to a third separate area away from everyone else and only place others who are also sick with them.
Just my two cents worth.

MollyD

Thanks for the input, MollyD. All those I have now are
acting healthy. The MM chicks are 6 weeks old. The home
hatched are 4 weeks. I have a pre-book on 6 mountain
quail eggs, that will likely be here middle to end of April,
then they take 24 days to hatch after that. The quail and
chickens will be housed seperately, but are any of the MM
chicks going to be carriers? I know I will be talking to my vet
next week to nail down my issues, for sure. But, all of you
have great insight into what's going on, and all info is like
gold to me. Thanks.

It's entirely possible that some chicks may end up being carriers but your vet is probably the best person to advise you on this.

Sorry I can't be of more useful help.

MollyD

truest
Did you by any chance order bantam Cochin? and large fowl Polish and Americana's?
or maybe they sent you bantam
That might explain the size difference.......
If birds have already been exposed to "possible" infected birds then just leave them together
I wouldn't be destroying any because some may survive......and have already infected the others.So it would serve no purpose
as for vaccinating your flock....
I know a vet, you guys can call him,he'll send you what you need mail order-next day air
He's expensive but very well respected in the poultry show circuit...and can investigate and answer all your questions
I will look for his # tonite

Wow
Heres his website
guess the word has gotten out about him
it now costs 20 bucks to consult him...(still cheaper than going to the vets though) and he waives the fee if you buy 50 bucks worth of stuff after the consult

http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/

here is some info that should help about AE i can't remember if i posted it here, if i did please forgive my blondeness,lol i have a sever migrain. if not it should help answer alot of questions.
silkie

Avian Encephalomyelitis
Synonyms: epidemic tremor, AE
Species affected: The disease is most prevalent in chickens less than 6 weeks of age. Pheasants, corturnix quail, and turkeys are natural hosts as well, but less susceptible than chickens. Ducklings, young pigeons, and guinea fowl can be experimentally infected.

Clinical signs: Signs commonly appear during the first week of life and between the second and third weeks. Affected chicks may first show a dull expression of the eyes, followed by progressive incoordination, sitting on hocks, tremors of the head and neck, and finally paralysis or prostration. Affected chicks are inactive. Some may refuse to walk or will walk on their hocks. In advanced cases, many chicks will lie with both feet out to one side (prostrate) and die. All stages (dullness, tremors, prostration) can usually be seen in an affected flock. Feed and water consumption decreases and the birds lose weight. In adult birds, a transitory drop (5-20 percent) in egg production may be the only clinical sign present. However, in breeding flocks, a corresponding decrease in hatchability is also noted as the virus is egg- transmitted until hens develop immunity. Chickens which survive the clinical disease may develop cataracts later in life (see Table 2 ).

Transmission: The virus can be transmitted through the egg from infected hen to chick, accounting for disease during the first week of life. The disease can also be spread through a flock by direct contact of susceptible hatchlings with infected birds, accounting for the disease at 2-3 weeks of age. Indirect spread can occur through fecal contamination of feed and water. Recovered birds are immune and do not spread the virus.

Treatment: There is no treatment for outbreaks. Infected birds should be removed, killed and incinerated. Recovered chicks are unthrifty.

Prevention: A vaccine is available.

That's a very sad prognosis :-( My heart goes out to all of you with infected birds.

MollyD

to me it would mean they're never going to reach their full potential as adults. Runts for life. Low on egg production too.

MollyD