Wintersowing vegetables

I know that one can ws vegetables, but have not been able to find any guidelines as to when to sow what. I did tomatoes last year and peppers, but they were done late. How about kale, lettuces (radicchio) and other non-hot weather veggies? Who has done this?

I would very much appreciate some ideas, I have bunches of seeds and would like to try something new. And I assume they would be done the same way as flowers, etc?

Clementine - I tried some lettuce seed (not radicchio, though), and there are some sprouts about 2" tall. Don't know what to do with them, though . . . never grew lettuce before - it was more of a "let's see if it works". I did start some walking stick kale/cabbage seeds in November . . . not really WSing, but the seedlings did survive the winter so far sitting on a shelf on the front porch.

Hi, Clementine-- I checked the Wintersown data base and it noted that kale was WSed in Zone 6 in February/March with some success...

Thanks, tabasco. I think I saw that too, but I was hoping for perhaps some more veggies to sow. Have you done lettuces? Anyone done radicchio? I am especially interested in radicchio, I think it is so great in a salad, and I would also like to try to cook it. Maybe I'll just try a couple of seeds.

Good question. I like Radicchio too.

This article says radicchio germinates best when the soil is 60-70 degrees, so if you think the soil in your wintersowing bottles/set up outdoors is in that range then it will probably germinate rather well. http://www.farm-garden.com/growing-vegetables/radicchio

Alternatively, you could germinate the seed indoors (it says about 5-7 days at 70 degrees) in the milk bottles and then set out the seedlings in a covered milk bottle (for protection) and probably get an early spring harvest...it says that the radicchio grown in cold weather is better tasting, so worth a try.

Probably the same/similar for kale and related early spring salad crops...

I just ordered a bunch of mixed lettuce seeds from John Scheepers Kitchen Garden, and I am apt to try for an early crop, too.

They have a great selection and some nice mixes and collections for salads. This list shows days to harvest, too:

http://www.kitchengardenseeds.com/cgi-bin/catview.cgi?_KEYWORDS=lettuce&_fn=Search&submit=Search

http://www.kitchengardenseeds.com/cgi-bin/catview.cgi?_KEYWORDS=radicchio&_fn=Search&submit=Search



This message was edited Feb 13, 2008 11:58 AM

Thanks, tabasco. I think I will try to do as you suggest. We have a heating mat (DH says it is a piglet warmer - ????). Anyway, I used it last year too to germinate seeds, although later than now.

Turns out, we have a bunch of quart plastic milk bottles and I'll try to set out seedlings under them when the time comes.

What's your plan?

Might try to put some lettuce seeds out for wintersowing directly and also put some under lights. Then we'll see.

I suppose it would be a good idea to stagger sowing the lettuce mixes so that they aren't all ready for eating on the same day! I don't have a heat mat (yet) but I'm looking. I heard it's important to have one that you can regulate the temps on...what do you think?

I went back and added a radicchio/frisee mix to my Scheeper's order--you convinced me!

Clementine here's the plant charts for VA, we're both in zone 7b. Maybe this will help http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/envirohort/426-316/426-316.html

That Extension brochure covers a lot of good info.

I wish they would include some pointers for Wintersowing from time to time...it seems like the World of Official Research hasn't caught up with we home growers!

Thanks, doccat, for that site, I haven't' studied it yet, and I agree with tabasco that most of the time you have to extrapolate for winter sowing, because this concept has not percolated up to the establishment yet.

Agreed, and there are no hard and fast rules with this. You know your micro climate, but at least it gives you a better "target" date to work with. I normally put my tomatoes in early around the mid to end of March here. Cover them with row covers or cloches so that I can have ripe tomatoes in June. Blows the neighbor's mind.

doccat, I asked a question on the Tomato Forum about Wintersowing tomatoes from seed-- if you have any advice about growing them with that method, I would love to hear about it.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/813598/

(I want to develop an informative 'wintersowing tomatoes' thread that has lots of good info for a WS sticky. )

There doesn't seem to be much info on tomatoes and WSing that I can find....maybe that's because it doesn't work so well...

Well, I start mine in styrafoam or paper cups, so I don't have to transplant. This year I'm using Miracle grow mix. It was on sale. I grow them in front of one of my bay windows, occasionally I have to turn them as they bend reaching for the light. I am going to try a grow light set up this year, just to see if I get better results. I "test" the soil wetness with my finger, if it feels dry I water, but I always set up my seeds so I can water from the bottom. I have a tendency to get a bit heavy handed so that helps me. I use lukewarm water, they seem to like that. And just let them do their thing. Once I get them hardened off I plant them in already prepared beds. After gently tearing off the bottom of the cup, I plant in a trench up to the 2 true leaves. I've found it makes for a much longer stronger root system and the cup prevents cutworms from bothering the seedlings. I normally don't stake mine, I have to many other irons in the fire to bother, but I do mulch under the plants to help conserve moisture and keep down weeds. I use wide rows and raised beds, and those are simply soil piled up with a shovel to about 8". We've been working this ground for a long time, so it's really simple to set it up. We use a Troybilt rototiller to do the bed prep and work in compost, etc. My beds are normally 3'wide and usually about 25' long. I use radishes between the sections so I know where I've been. LOL I also sink 3 lb hole punched coffee cans in between my plants, we have a shallow well, so I use gray water to help spread the load.

I see. So you start your seeds indoors on the window sill and transplant out into your tomato garden early on.

I had heard that some southern gardeners start their seeds directly in the garden with a cloche or row cover to protect them until they are able to survive on their own--something along the lines of seed starting using the traditional 'Wintersowing' vented milk jug approach in the outdoors.

This little write up on tomato seed starting (although it discusses the traditional method of starting seeds indoors) talks about the influence of cold treatment on tomato seedlings:

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/start.html

and it piqued my interest in how Wintersowing might work with tomato seeds.

I suppose 'Wintersowing' early season or mid-season tomato seeds would work the best: since the seedlings would be fully garden ready a few weeks later than indoor started seedlings, in a shorter growing season (like our 6a) fruits would ripen early enough...

Well, just some ramblings about Wintersowing and tomatoes. I haven't grown tomatoes in a number of years and then from transplants only so I'm interested in how the Wintersowing approach might work with them...

Any other thoughts?..

It's not quite warm enough here to try direct sowing as early as I would like to get them in. I do early, mid and late varieties of tomatoes. We usually still have vine picked tomatoes in late Jan. Burpee sells a variety called Long Keeper and it is just that. For winter storage, you pick them while they are still green, wrap in layer's of newspaper and store in a cool dry place. Check periodically for any spoiled ones and they will last all winter. Great taste too.

doccat--

Thanks for the tip on the Long Keepers. Sounds like a much better alternative than buying the winter tomatoes from Kroger!

I had heard some people cut the vine in September and hang it upside down in the garage or basement and get ripening in November and maybe December...that boggles my mind too!

Would you share your early and mid-season seed list? Might be worth considering for the WS approach...

Well, this year I'm doing mostly mid to late season heirlooms. I'm starting this all over again, since I've retired, I now have the time to play. I've always wanted to grow more heirlooms, so I've gotten seed from many generous seed exchange types. I do grow Beefsteaks for canning. Those I'll pick up from a local grower, I prefer them for canning and his are acclimatized for my area. These are suppose to be hybrids, but they come back every year, so I have a feeling he isn't telling the "exact" truth about the origin. They are excellent, so I don't care. LOL Yes, you can pull the vines and do that, I just prefer picking them and storing them in newspaper. My growing season is long enough I can get away with that with no problem. Check my info site for my seed. I need to add some more to it. But that should give you the general idea of what I'm working with.

Last year I grew some tomato seed indoors and some were wintersowed. The wintersowed caught up very quickly to the indoor sown, but had a better root system. I really couldn't tell the difference after a while.

doccat, do you start your seeds using the "wintersowing" method? Or do you start them in trays under lights?

I start mine in flats under lights. Not warm enough here to try wintersowing. I do however, "cheat" buy starting them early and transplanting to the garden early. I use black plastic to warm the soil and row covers and cloches to protect the seedlings from frost. Usually I get most of them thru and have early ripe tomatoes.

Oh, I see. I was confused and thought you were talking about the 'wintersowing' method of starting tomatoes.

I want to report success with radicchio - I think. See ideas above. I thought I'd just try and see what happens and put some in my milk jug and put it outside with the other ones. Temps were relatively warm then (I think it was around March 5, I guess I had such little faith that I did not even record it). It stayed out during one of the good downpours we have had here. When temps plunged to 25, I brought it in one night, but the second night (26F) I FORGOT.

Well, this morning I stuck my eyeball to the hole in the milk jug - and guess what - there is a whole army of tiny little seedlings!!!!!!!!!!! I am so excited.

Of course, we don't know how they will do after this. Temps are going to be in the sixties this week, low forties (one 38, one 50).

I think this was my biggest wintersowing success ever, because I really wanted this. I have had some failures, of course, and many successes, but this is special. I am crazy.

Oh, very exciting about the Radicchio. I just planted mine yesterday so I am very optimistic now!

They say it likes this cold/cool spring weather---that is will get very good color and flavor with the frosty air so you should be in radicchio heaven!

Clementine,
Just browsing through the thread...I have used the conventional ws method successfully so far with arugula and those yellow cabbage collards that brightstar sent me :-) I also have some peppers up along with some herbs. The parsley for my butterfly cats are doing very well right now. I have some mixed lettuces that I planted about 2 weeks ago doing well for me now. These are all outside.
How 'bout this wonderful spring weather?
Bev

tabasco, I guess you planted yours in a jug like I did, did you? Since you are further North, yours may go through some similar "weather" as mine. Good luck, please report back.

Bev: If I understand correctly, you have put everything outside in the ground, right? I tried peppers inside, but they did not come up, so I'll just buy a few plants when the time comes. We got some tomatoes though and are hopeful about them, they ended up a bit lanky. I put out some kohlrabi, lettuce and arugula, but some critter got into it and dug it up partially, so all I can see now are a few little measly arugula seedlings, tiny tiny ones.

I read about the yellow collards, very interesting. I still have regular collards that I put in last fall and they are doing very very well.

Spring is definitely here, I see all the things I should do and I hope I get half of them done. And it is going to rain again Friday/Saturday - that is very good, all the ponds are coming up nicely.

Yes, Clementine. I "Wintersowed" them in a container. ( I call the other 'direct sowing'.) It can be confusing which method we are talking about.

No, jug method like everything else I've covered my patio with this winter, lol! Hint, hint, Clementine...if you come to the App. Round Up, I could bring you some of the collards unless-as mom always said- the creeks rise;-)
And peppers traditionally take a while to come up so it's easy to get discouraged with them.

I didn't even bother with indoor sowing this year. Wasn't the root system amazing??