Need help IDing some Grays

EmmaGrace has already unsnarled my confusion about Gray Fog (Grey Fog?) here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4132293 , and I very much appreciated that.

However, I had been feeling pret-ty smug about all three of my Gray Morning Mist vines looking like each other, until, in the above thread, Emma said with respect to this vine of my Gray Fog grow-out ( http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=4126779 ), "However, I have never had one of my blooms with this kind of Margined Picotee Edge, so I am again guessing this is a stray seed that I sent to you. Pretty Bloom."

Sooo - all three of my Gray Morning Mist vines had that "margined picotee edge", as did the vine of Gray Fog noted above, plus one of the three Plum Gray Smoke vines I grew, pictured below (32-3 my #). I'm hoping someone can give me an ID for this MG.

(There's another post where Emma cleared up the ID of Gray Morning Mist here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3965039 which I also appreciated)

In the following 2 posts, I'll give pics of the other 2 vines that came to me labeled as Plum Gray Smoke. Could I get an ID for those, as well as a definitive pic for Plum Gray Smoke? (Here are the last 2 posts I could find through a search for Plum Gray Smoke:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3965365
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3965592
Emma, hope I'm not putting you on the spot - I can't imagine trying to keep as many photos as you take organized up to the minute - haven't finished my meager pile yet, either.)

Thanking anyone in advance for helping me out of my Grays Muddle,
Karen

Plum Gray Smoke 32-2 (also looking for correct ID)

Plum Gray Smoke 32-1 (also looking for correct ID)

I won't be any help here....I've only grown Gray Fog and have the seeds for Gray Morning Mist and Gray Lady to try next summer.

Yes, you are being a help here, Beth. To me, understanding these flowers goes beyond being able to name each one according to its physical characteristics - I like to have an understanding of the genes present, historical, and future lurking within each flower, too. I'm gradually aquiring clues around here, but have not aquired enough tools to refine the questions nibbling at the back of my head. Just to have someone else share my curiosity about these gorgeous and ancient puzzles helps a lot.

I don't know what I'll be able to find out with regard to the grays, but the mysterious possibilities really sparkle when I consider two things:

1) Next to corn, morning glories are said to be the second most researched plant on earth due to their mutability.

2) In http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3965039 , Emma said, "The Gray Morning Mist that has remained True for several years is a sport of my Henka-Blue Type" , and I seem to recall (but can't find the post to be sure) that somewhere Ron or someone said that the word "Henka" meant or referred to changeability/mutability.

So, I can't wait to see what grows out from these grays and plums from Emma next year with the mutable Gray Morning Mist (or Plum Gray Smoke 32-1 that seems to most approximate the real thing) in the mix. I hope y'all will help me with the grow-out and do some experimenting yourselves.

The grays I grew shared an arbor with Emma's Velvet Plum and the deep, solid red-purple Heian no Umi. I was happy to see Plum Gray Smoke 32-2 turn out with that cheerful type of royal blue and Gray Fog 33-1 turn out to be that light, creamy Solid Chocolate. And their were some youjiro genes present in I. youjiro 'Yagurama' (RositaNOT), as well as that phenomenally prolific "No Name, rosey-red, blooms like crazy".

Now, imagine these colors overlaid with a patina of smokey gray - I am. Maybe it'll happen or maybe it won't, because random pollinators like bees were in charge of that department this year. The only thing I controlled pollination for this year was to try to multiply "true" seed of each cultivar I had to work for for future experiments.

Has anyone seen that poppy, Papaver rhoeas 'Mother of Pearl' - who wouldn't love to see that in a MG?

I look forward to any comments, corrections and/or answers to my questions.

LOL...... "No Name, rosey-red, blooms like crazy"
I have some NOIDs that I make up names for, too!

That was Emma's description, so I stuck with it for continuity. And that name was right on. I loved the way a cluster of buds formed for this youjiro, whereas one bud is normal for the nils. And the flowers were smaller - like bells. Life is going to be so boring when I get my glasses fixed.

I've noticed you got some surprises, too - beautiful, all of them, I think. Which ones most interested you? Do you know if they were a stray seed or an open pollinated variation (and if so, what the parent was)?

These Grays all came from Emma - am hoping she'll chime in here. I have enjoyed every one of them so much.

What were some of your favorite NOID names? Anyone is invited to chime in, here.

I can't offer any ID here, I only had one gray. That sure is producing some nice ones this year.

A.

Thanks, Gourd - am including these in your, Beth's and others' envies.

Thanks Karen... I can only imagine what we are going to get this coming year.. I wish it was already Spring.. the weather is not bad here, but I miss all the blooms.

Anticipating next summer's flowers is almost like looking forward to a reunion, isn't it?

Someone asked me to post the other grays I grew, so here we go - nice to see sunshine on flowers again, isn't it? I posted all 3 Gray Fog vines I grew from Emma in Hobbyodlaren's thread on Gray Fog, which is the 1st link at the beginning of this thread.

From this post through the next two, I'll post the 3 Gray Morning Mist vines that I grew from Emma, followed with 1 of her Velvet Plum.

And then - gradually, until Christmas is past and I finish getting seed out - I hope y'all will walk with me through a new Thank You thread of our garden last summer, where I'll bring all my pics together in a major Thank You for Emma, PamSue, LouisianaMark, Luvsgrtdanes, Gourd, rwmedic, Shirley1md, Ansonfan, Ron and Gardener2005 for making last summer into such a festival of morning glories by sharing their seed with me. And how would any of us have connected with each other without this forum and Dave's Garden that made it possible? Perhaps some of the best were the surprises?

Gray Morning Mist 31-1 (my #)

Gray Morning Mist 31-2

This is the only one I know for certain that corresponds to 31-3. Will follow with one more Gray Morning Mist of better quality that could have come from vines 31-1 or 31-2.

Gray Morning Mist 31-3

Gray Morning Mist - either 31-1 or 31-2

Am still working on rounding up my Velvet Plum images, but in the process, I found an unnamed MG Emma grew last summer that, to me, looks just my Plum Gray Smoke #34-2.

Here's hers: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3861984 . I agree with comments on that thread - this is one of the cheeriest blues I grew and would love to have an ID for this one, too.

Here's the one I just posted above: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4271896

and here's another pic of my Plum Gray Smoke 32-2 with the partial picotee at the tips of the primary folds more obvious -

This message was edited Aug 18, 2008 7:41 PM

Wouldn't you know that my best image of Velvet Plum is the least informative grrr. I'll start with 2 links already posted for Velvet Plum 34-1. They are very fuzzy, but give a better idea of the rich colors and subtle pattern:

http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/bluespiral_1187837859_968.jpg
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3889080

The next 2 images in this post and the next are of Velvet Plum 34-2, with a clear image of a very tattered flower first -

Velvet Plum 34-2 tidied up -

Now that these grays and plums from Emma are up on the board, it really does feel like the summer is past - in an official sort of way. We'll come back to these in a new "Thankyou"/garden walk thread later on with more context within which these beauties grew.

Hope someone IDs the ones I was wondering about. Would anyone else like to post some of their grays, plums and any ruminations here?

Emma, thank you - you outdid yourself with these MGs, and I hope everyone else becomes as enchanted as we have been when they get the opportunity to grow some, too.

Your Gray Mist blooms are very, very pretty, Karen!

I only had the one vine and it was Gray Fog. Which was a beauty and a prolific bloomer and seed producer!

Becky, that is a gorgeous pic, makes a generous bouquet - I haven't forgotten our trade - am looking forward to it but still need a couple more weeks - maybe after Christmas?

Since mine are so different from yours, could Gray Morning Mist and Gray Mist be two different cultivars?

This message was edited Dec 9, 2007 9:38 PM

Karen - I have your seeds all packaged up for you. After Christmas is fine. :-) My guess is that they are different cultivars. Mine is Gray Fog. No "mist" in the name. Emma confirmed that mine was Gray Fog by the blooms.

Karen here are a few of my grays from a trader at GW. I don't know where her original seeds came from...

Another

Here are a few blue ones that came from you...

One with blotches

Thanks, Becky. I sure would like to know what kind of systems others who grow more vines than I do use to keep themselves organized - getting these seeds out is a slow, plodding process for me - this time I want to remember who gets what for growouts. And then - tracking series of generations and crosses???

Ronnie, I'm working on your envie, too. Your Ipomoea setosa (Brazilian MG) did well - seed matured in spite of the late planting and one vine being yanked out of the ground after it had gotten about 15'. I just poked it back in, watered a few times, and although the leaves never returned from their composted condition, the pods continued to develop and eventually yielded seed that looks as good as that from the other vine. (To any who may remember my earlier debacle with "snap-crackle&pop fizzing" I. setosa seeds, I don't know what those were, but they were not I. setosa as labeled. I should start taking pics of seeds from now on as well as the rest of the developmental cycle.)

Ronnie, I am so glad to see someone posting some F2 pics from Emma's "No Name, Baby Blue/Pale Pink youjiro". I found a pic that Emma posted of that parent and will post that along with my F2 vines from it tomorrow - the patterns from generation to generation are fascinating to me. Gerris - are you out there? I seem to recall sending you some, too - any pics? Anybody else?

Hi Karen,
I've got some seeds from you also, but will grow them out this coming year. Probably in a couple of months I'll start up some seeds again. I don't know an easy way to keeping organized, I did get several containers that the box stores are selling for Christmas ornaments (they are 3 high stackables) and then seperating them by species, then making sub-tabs even within each species. Also, this time, I am putting the name of each person that is receiving any of these seeds on the paper envelope which are 3x6 envelopes that I store the dry seeds in (seeds are in alpha order in each box). They seem to take up less room too. I don't really care too much about the growouts on mine (only a couple), but, I do want to make sure I sent what was requested to each one, so I wrote it down. That would be a good way to keep track for the following year if you wanted to, or print out all the D-mails with your trades on them also, the d-mails are permanent records.

I've got to reduce the amount of space I take up with seeds, so I decreased almost all of the others flower seeds and gave most away. Now I regret getting rid of all the vine seeds too.

My problem is knowing who I got WHAT from, some do not have the names of who sent them and after I alphabetize them I'll never know. I don't write the name of who sent them either. So that is something that maybe I need to do. I hope that i"ve been putting the name gourd on mine, but do not remember if I did or not anymore.

A., yup, I'm keeping trade lists on my computer, but I sure wouldn't be without the envelope idea - that has saved my disorganized hide many times. The name (or a code for the name) of the source of seed goes everywhere the name of the seed goes. Not to worry if you forget which seeds I sent you - I'll honk atcha next year.

As for organizing the seeds themselves, I try to maintain one master list of all seeds I have in alphabetical order on the computer (woefully out of date right now, but still an invaluable reference). Physically, the seeds are stored in groups by the method of germination I am most likely to use.

There were 3 organizing principles I learned from this forum that really helped me to be able to keep much of my seed identifiable this fall:

1) In the beginning, before you first germinate your seed, record what you are about to germinate and make a waterproof label with a waterproof pen for each seed at that time. That label will follow the seed from the initial soak to the baggie/coffee filter to the first pot and on into the ground when the seedling is at last planted out - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3303432 .

2) Another great idea of Emma's - make a map of where everything is. I made several maps for different sections of the garden last summer so that I had enough room to scribble some of my notes right by each vine on the map.

3) Take pictures - documenting with DC photos after the manner of this forum was new to me last summer. It helped tremendously, but I still have a ways to go before I do it as well as it could be done. One thing I didn't do until the end was to put the date on the piece of paper on which I wrote notes about the MGs - big mistake.

I know what you mean about seeds taking up too much space, but, A, it's not like we're strewing stuff all over the floors from door to door like motorcycle parts or wandering livestock - lol. Can anyone else come up with more reasons like this that classifies them as organized?

I hear ya! I am still learning myself. I do the garden bed drawings. I name each garden bed with a letter or number. Then I use other codes inside the bed for what seeds or plants are planted where. I also label pots with a piece of bright yellow duct tape and then mark with a unique name or number that can be referenced back to a list in my garden notebook and on the computer. I try to write as large as possible on the duct tape. That way I can see it from a distance instead of squatting down or picking up the pot everytime to read what it is. I also use the labels, but find I have to dig them out of the soil, so I prefer the outer pot labels to ID what I am growing especially since I move the pots around off and on. I have also had the labels washed away by a heavy downpour or get dug up by the squirrels or other garden creatures. So I don't rely heavily on ground labels.

I use several 3-ring notebooks with plastic baseball card sleeves for storing seed packs I have received. I am just now learning to mark who they are from, the date, and any other pertinent info on the seed packs. I just catergorize them by "species" for MGs. With other seeds, I organize them by short, medium, tall, bush, tree, etc. And also by sunny or shady and dry or wet areas. I have all these garden areas in my yard, so I have to discern what to plant where... Another fact that I am quickly learning to insure better plant success. (I know ... I am such a newbie gardener!!!)

I have my seeds for trades in seed packs inside 5 X 7 envelopes which are just stuffed in a box. I need to get more organized on that! Probably alphabetize them or number them and have a list in the box. That would surely make it easier and faster to locate them.

One thing that I may have to make an effort and spend the extra $$s in printer ink is ... to attach a small picture of the blooms to the seed packs. Beth, Mark, and a few others do that and I really appreciate it! But I know that it could get expensive to do that with all the seed packs I currently have. :-( But it is very helpful to the folks you are trading with. I think it is the time and the $$s that is holding me back! LOL!

This is a good topic and I am reading it and taking notes! Thanks for sharing everyone!!!

We should just start a new thread about this topic for storing and labeling seeds. (Hint, hint!)

This message was edited Dec 11, 2007 7:10 AM

Thanks Becky, lots of good tips here.


Some kinds of storage containers and methods are better than others when it comes to containing that bane of morning glories: weevils. Since a weevil has several instars (phases of development), some of which are not always apparent, it might be a good idea to read the following posts, and then the thread that contains them:

Both Atenkley and Ron posted about how weevils can chew through a small plastic zip-lock bag. In this post - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2995184 - Atenkley said double-bagging worked fine for him, and Ron gave further advice in this post - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2997690 . It really would be worthwhile to study and save that thread, so make yourself a cup of tea and settle down for some major brain food.

These are really beautiful!! I love the grays, so different.

Hope y'all don't mind - some are asking for pics of some of the seed I sent out. I'm not sure that this one from EmmaGrace is a stable cultivar, so can't put it in PlantFiles.

It sure acted like the description she gave it: "Rosey-Red, Blooms Like Crazy". Unlike most other I. nil cultivars I've grown, it had 2 to 3 flowers to each pedicel. The flowers were smaller, but so much more prolific than many other nils. From underneath the arbor where they bloomed, the color shone.

Those are really nice photos you took. I've got some Rosy Red seeds but they are from someone else. So, I won't be any help here.

hopefully someone else has some growing.
A.

These two are from the 2nd year grow out from seeds that came from EmmaGrace with the description - an I. youjiro seedling "Baby Blue and Pale Pink" (I never saw any pinks). The variety within this generation was interesting. The pics that Luvsgrtdanes posted above - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4279382 & http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4279389 - are from the same generation of seeds descended from "Baby Blue and Pale Pink" that are posted here. The larger pale blue one to the left was 36-2, 3 in my garden, and the smaller one with lighter panels in the star to the right was 38-1. 38-1 actually had the effect of appearing a very dark, velvety purple, with a design I loved.

Now, I did germinate two of the Baby Blue and Pale Pink with this batch from your seeds from last year. Hopefully I will do them justice..lol. those are really nice too. Maybe we will see a pink one.

Hi Gourd,

I sure would like to see pics of others' "Rosey-Red" (that was her spelling) seeds. Do you know if it's characteristic of the nils to have one flower per pedicel, or are they known to have more than one sharing the same pedicel?

This looks like an interesting one to breed with.

Alrighty, I'll see who I got them from and also see if I can get them sown. I think these were Youjiros that I got with that name. I'll double check though.

A.

Oops - crossed in cyberspace. For a long time, I had an aversion to pink, for reasons unbeknownst to me. But, on morning glories, who has ever seen a color they didn't like? I'm serous - I've heard some grumblings around here, and I'm very curious to know what constitutes an unlikeable mg.

Anyway, after last summer's mg vines, I no longer have any color dislikes. I wish I had more black flowers to grow with the gray mgs - who'd have thought THOSE two colors - especially together - would have any charm?

By the time this forum gets through with me, there won't be a color under the sun I will dislike.

You know, I've had several of the I. nil Chocolate flowers in cluster like flowers and also the Tie Dyes, so I guess they can have both. Sorry, I had hit send too fast.