Zany zinnia hybrids - Part 2

Hi all,

The old "My zany hybrid zinnias" message thread http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/747338/ was getting kind of long and today I borrowed my wife's digital camera to begin getting better pictures. So this seems like a good time to start the thread anew. My F2s are beginning to bloom now and there are the usual surprises and disappointments. My zinnia compost pile is filling up fast. The old 95% bad 5% good rule is holding fairly true. So I am getting some good new specimens to include in my breeding mix.

Next year I am going to plant my zinnias much closer together, with the expectancy that at lot of them will hit the compost pile at first bloom. That will let me grow a lot more zinnias in roughly the same space. After seeing that my wife's digital camera does much better than my camcorder's video frame grabs (up until now all of my pictures have been upsampled video frames), I hope to get a digital camera of my own for Christmas.

I am busy pollinating new zinnia specimens and laying in a supply of breeder seed for next year. A few of the "new" pictures will follow. Many of my F2s are still in the bud stage right now, so there will probably be more surprises to come. I hope to do significantly better with this hobby next year. Gardeners always seem to think that way.

MM

This message was edited Aug 26, 2007 3:06 AM

One zinnia that I am pretty excited about has the most unusual blend of colors on its petals that I have ever seen. Even my wife's Sony camera can't really do it justice. The effect is almost like streaked impasto oil paints. I am nuts about the look of these blooms, and I am pretty much selfing every petal that I can. I hope to raise a bunch of these next year, so that I can spread this effect over a wide color range.

MM

We hear a lot about "dahlia flowered" zinnias, but this one actually looks somewhat like a dahlia to me.

Whirligig heritage on this one reminds me of an exploding fireworks pattern.

Or two exploding at one time.

This one shows its Whirligig heritage in a more subdued way.

And this is another specimen with some "crazy stuff" going on in its center.

MM,

I really like your featured zinnias, especially the first shot. I'd love to see you develop that one to breed consistently. We've had multiple examples of something like your fourth shot this season. Are photos number two and three fully matured specimens or still early in the bloom stage? If they could stay that way for awhile it would be awesome.

All very nice. Good luck!

Some interesting pics MM. Zinnais sure do have a lot of variance in their form and color. I would assume breeders would have a harder time getting a cultivar to come out all the same. I did seed a few midsummer that are opening up now.

BDale,

"Are photos number two and three fully matured specimens or still early in the bloom stage? If they could stay that way for awhile it would be awesome."

None of these are fully mature. I have had Whirligigs "out of the seed packet" that looked rather like the blooms in photos three and four, and they very well may have been grandparents of the new ones.

How those blooms change in time remains to be seen. Although I am getting quite a few of them, I am not a big fan of upcurled petals, because so much of the backsides of the petals show. It would be nice if I got a mutant that had fully colored backsides of the petals.

"We've had multiple examples of something like your fourth shot this season."

If you are referring to the plant in the third and fourth shots, I have had specimens similar to that plant right out of a Whirligig seed packet. If by "fourth shot" you mean the pink and white "whirligigish" one (photo five, from the top), yes, I have also had ones very similar to it right out of the seed packet. I currently have a Vesey's Zig Zag http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/store/annuals/zinnia/zigzagzinnia that looks rather like it, only with a different color combination and a slightly different flower form.

I like the bicolor and tricolor combinations, whether they are bold or subtle. A priority in next year's breeding will be to get spider flowered zinnias, and to get bicolored and tricolored versions of spider flowered zinnias. That would make some blooms that really did look like "fireworks".

MM



This message was edited Aug 26, 2007 12:56 PM

LOL. My counting skills are not all they could be at times! I was grouping your two "fireworks" Whirly's together as one, but that still leaves some gaps in my numbering system.

Bi-colored and tri-colored spider flowered zinnias would have definite appeal for me.

Thanks for sharing all your wonderful zinnias with us, MM! Because of you, I'm planning a zinnia bed for next year!

KW,

Glad to hear it. I really enjoy zinnias myself. If you have any questions, I'll try to answer them, or just admit that I don't know.

MM

This new specimen has colors similar to Zowie, but with a somewhat different flower form.

This one also has Whirligig parentage, but with subdued bicolors.

Another one with at least one Whirligig grandparent, with subdued bicolors.

I'm hoping this one can lead to offspring that have a more "spider flowered" flower form.

WOW!! Wanted to let you know how beautiful your photos are!
I will be planting my first Zinnia's in the Spring and your photos have made me wish Spring would get here like-Yesterday!! How are they at being indoor plants? LOL I just can't wait! I have been getting every Zinnia seed I can in trade-thanks all-and I will be happy if mine look half as nice as yours! Wonderful Flowers!

Distantkin,

Thanks for the compliments. Zinnias need lots more light than most indoor plants, although I did succeed at raising one zinnia plant from seed-to-seed under a bank of eight tubes of overdriven (extra bright) fluorescent lights.

I started several dozen zinnias extra early this year under fluorescent lighting and they were coming into bloom when I set them into the garden in early June. We have a short growing season here in Maine. I plan to assemble a lean-to greenhouse kit this fall and experiment with zinnias in the greenhouse this winter.

I wish you luck with your zinnias next spring. Like you, I can't wait for spring. If I can get that greenhouse going and growing, maybe I won't have to.

MM

Let me know how it goes as my growing season is shorter than yours and I have often thought of a greenhouse. I think I will need to look into that more myself. Good Luck and keep me posted :o)
~Robbi

I just found this thread and I am completely blown away.Your flowers are simply gorgeous.

I am in love with Zinnia Zowie and have grown it from seed for the second year.We have a lot of trouble with mildew on Zinnias down here in the very humid Southern Coastal area and Zowie seems to thrive on the humidity.

Are some of your hybrids tolerant of hot humid weather?

I will go back now and read the first thread.Thank you so much for posting these pictures.

downscale_babe,

"Are some of your hybrids tolerant of hot humid weather?"

I don't think so, as far as disease resistance is concerned, although I haven't run comparative tests. We have a lot of humid weather, but our temperatures rarely exceed 90 degrees. A lot of my zinnias do have hybrid vigor, and they grow rapidly, but they are susceptible to several zinnia foliage diseases, particularly as the plants grow older. My younger plants look pretty good, nearly pristine, but as the plants get older they seem to loose their natural resistance to disease and need spraying. Much like roses do.

I should spray my zinnias more frequently than I do. I spray them from time to time, but our frequent rains wash the spray off. I have been using GreenCure® http://www.greencure.net/what_is_greencure.asp and it works fairly well preventing Powdery Mildew and a bunch of other foliage diseases. I am thinking of experimenting with Physan 20™ http://www.physan.com/PAGES/home.html and/or Consan 20™ http://elawngarden.com/item.php?itemID=159&optionID=124, and I may experiment with some well-diluted copper sulfate solution. I have some copper sulfate and some zinc sulfate to experiment with. There is also a copper soap product I am curious about. http://www.gardensalive.com/product.asp?pn=8066&sid=144179&prd=y&eid=082107gacr&eicioi=37127

MM

Hi,

I am finding this thread absolutely fascinating. MaineMan, I love your hybrids, so keep showing them. Also, enjoying the explanations of how it's done. Even though I'll probably never do it myself, it's still fun to read about.

I planted some zinnias this summer, just the regular old-fashioned kind. We have just finished a solid month of 100+ degree weather. The zinnias took it all without a single droop and kept right on blooming. I will definitely be planting more next year.

Karen

I thought of you today, MM, while admiring the zinnias exhibited at our county fair. I'm sure yours would have won ribbons!

MaineMan

I am familiar with physan from my time in the medical field.Let me know about your results using it.

I use a product called rose pharm for diseases on my roses.It works,but can damage the leaves if the weather is too hot.I haven't been using it this summer because of the heat but will start using it again now that we are cooling off at night.

downscale_babe,

Consan 20 and Physan 20 (they have basically the same ingredients) can be used on roses. The writer in this article erroneously confuses their active organic chemicals with the inorganic chemical "ammonium chloride", but the writer does have some valid things to say: http://www.rosemagazine.com/articles04/rose_fungicide/

I have called around and none of our local garden centers or home stores have either product in stock, so I guess I will order some from the Internet. Have a good Labor Day. Our weather here in Maine is "perfect" today. I'll be headed outside as soon as I order the fungicides.

MM

Aren't you lucky,New England in the Fall.Our weather is still is still hot and sticky but a little bit cooler in the early morning.I can smell Autumn in the air.

Let me know where you purchased the physan and how much it cost.

Enjoy the weather and thank you for all the good links you have posted.

Nancy

Nancy,

I purchased my Physan at Dyna-Gro. I also ordered some Pro-TeKt from them. Pro-TeKt is a silicon containing product that is supposed to strengthen plants. I have no idea if it actually works, but I thought I would try it out. Actually, I suspect it is a vastly overpriced solution of potassium silicate. I also think Phyton is just an overpriced solution of copper sulfate. I could be wrong about that. Dyna-Gro's URL is: http://www.dyna-gro.com/products.htm Since Physan is so similar to Consan, I will defer ordering Consan for the time being.

It's definitely feeling like autumn here. I consider my zinnia patch to be in the end game now. I spent much of today putting labels on plants for reference when I save seeds from them. But I am already looking forward to next year.

MM

One reason for crossing Whirligigs with cactus flowered zinnias is to get bicolored cactus flowered zinnias, like this one.

Another reason for crossing Whirligigs with other zinnias is to get subdued bicolors.

I also would like to get spider flowered bicolors and tricolors, but first I need to select for increasingly spider flowered zinnias.

Toward that end, I am intercrossing my more nearly spider flowered specimens.

MM...your photo's are just superb. I love the first one in the thread...looks like a dahlia.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like Zinnias fell out of favor for a while.
We always had zinnias in the summer, but now everyone just seems to grow the boring dwarf varieties that the big box stores carry. Not that there's anything "wrong" with the dwarf's but the hybrids are so much more intense and interesting.

Unless I missed something in a previous thread, where do you get your seeds?

JD,

I get my seeds from a variety of sources. Burpee, Parks, Stokes, Harris, Thompson & Morgan, Johnny's, and Vesey's are my main sources, with Burpee and Parks accounting for maybe 75% of my plants from commercial sources. However, over half of my plants are now grown from seed that I have saved, much of which is hand pollinated by me. But I continue to get "new blood" from commercial sources.

I like that big dahlia looking one, too. Another specimen was similar and I plan to save seeds from them and be on the lookout for more occurrences of that "look".

You are right that zinnias fell out of favor for a while. And during that time a lot of good cultivars went extinct. Burpee had the F1 hybrid Zenith cactus flowered zinnias that were very vigorous and big. And the Luther Burbank strain of big pastel colored cactus and chrysanthemum flowered zinnias is no more. Burpee discontinued their remarkably compact and bushy Burpeeana Giants, and their resurrection of that strain leaves lots to be desired. The Howard's Crested strain disappeared. The Crown of Gold strain is gone. The small nearly black Black Ruby zinnias are gone. That color would have looked incredible in a big bicolored zinnia. The AAS award winning Fantasies are extinct. They had an incredible flower form that is only hinted at in today's shaggy zinnias. It really amazes me that AAS winning strains are allowed to pass from existence.

I would love to be crossing all of those long gone zinnias with selected zinnias that I have, to increase their diversity, and to get wholly new colors and flower forms. Oh well. I have my hands full with what I have. As they say, you have to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

MM

The long narrow petals of this bicolor (it has a Whirligig grandparent) remind me a bit of an aster.

I am crossing a lot of large flowered hybrids with this one in the hope of getting some interesting new flower forms.

This is a selection from Park's Pastel Scabious flowered strain. I am crossing it with other scabiosa flowered zinnias, as well as larger zinnias.

I find it sad that so many growers abandon proven varieties...or maybe it's because, as mentioned before, the plants just seem to fall out of favor....but in favor of WHAT? Dwarf varities that have no appeal but are mass produced and blooming in 6 packs?

I love all the "old fashioned" annuals...but finding them anymore is a real challenge.

I remember the days when bedding plants were sold in wooden flats, and you bought them by the dozen...and they did NOT have flowers on them. You could get F1 hyrbrid snaps in separate colors, zinnias, and old fashioned Imperial Giant stock, to name a few.

I worked for a grower here, briefly, and everything they sold (mainly to big box stores) was already blooming in 6 packs. The stores didn't accept things with no color. Their selections of plants was a disgrace compared to what you USED to be able to get...but this seems to be the norm these days. Everything is some dwarfed variety that either has no fragrance, or is so over-fed that they don't last but a month or so once they're planted.

Fortunately, I have 2 nurseries nearby that still carry the good old fashioned flowers, but you have to grab them when they get them.

I'm going to ck. out the seed suppliers you mentioned and start doing flowers from seed from now on. I have no choice !

Kudos to you for your experimenting on new color strains!

Sorry for my "rant" !

JD

I love all the zinna pics. I guess they are like daylilies there isn't a true blue yet?
Teresa in KY

Teresa,

No, sadly there is no true blue zinnia yet. Considering all the zinnia breeding that has been done and that no blue wild species of zinnias are known to exist, it isn't likely that our present breeding methods will produce a true blue.

A "brave new world" of genetic engineering will eventually revolutionize plant breeding and essentially make all things possible, including true blue zinnias and daylilies. But, for the time being, genetic engineering is focusing mainly on a few commercial crop plants. And there are fears that genetic engineering could have unintended consequences and have dangerous results. On the other hand, most of us have probably already eaten genetically engineered produce and not even known it. For more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism

MM