You can list free on that website. They say they get approximately 8,000 hits a month. If someone is familar with CSAs and do a search, they'll find Local Harvest on the first search page. I got my first contact through them. The people I have discussed this with, were doing farmers markets in the beginning to build a customer base and some still do. Everything I have read regarding CSAs say they generally start with just a few the first year to learn the ropes and by word of mouth get bigger each year, with many of them having waiting lists every year. There's some larger ones in the Louisville area that have 80-100 customers. I figured with 35, we'd be in great shape and DH would be able to quit working.
Seems to me the biggest pitfall and why people fail doing this, is because they don't plant enough, nor enough variety to keep the customers happy.
We don't have farm equipment to plant farm-style, so I'm planting more garden-style, wide rows, intensive planting, using weed blocker paper or plastic, with soaker hoses under that. Planning on keeping the weeding and watering on a manageable level, since I'll be doing this by myself until DH can return home.
Anyone doing a Bootstrap Business?
I hope you keep us updated on your CSA plans and experiences! We have a very vibrant, active farmer's market here in Fayetteville, but their prices are astronomical - I wouldn't call it collusion/price-fixing, but I don't know what else you'd call it. You can actually buy organic vegies shipped from CA at our local health food store for cheaper. And no one provides bulk vegies for someone who might want to can or freeze. So, I'm always interested in CSA's.
I hear you, Lwolf. I'd love to support local ag, but the prices! If it's close, we'll buy, but otherwise it's off to Natural Grocers for us... we try to live within our means and a potato is a potato, regardless.
Let's hear it for the rich folks! =0) Sustainable ag's last great hope.
I think that what we see in Local Ag is closer to the *actual* cost of food grown well, sustainably and organically and possibly *gasp* even allows the farmer to make a subsistence living. It may even possibly be done without imported or illegal workers. If we remove the subsidies, the illegal or underpaid workers, and move towards smaller, sustainable farming, then our food costs naturally will go up. On the average, .18 a lb is what the farmer actually sees from big ag farming products that are sold at grocery stores. Economies of scale are part of it, but who wants your food to be treated like widgets???
Dh feels much the way ya'll do; but I can tell you from just starting to prep beds and putting in some perennial plantings, that it costs substantially (and with my free labor costs not calculated), to sustainably and organically grow your food. I think in the long run, it will still be cheaper than buying organic food at the stores, and I will know for sure what went into it. I'll know I'm not eating out of season (but boy, those tomatoes sure are tempting...LOL!), and I won't be contributing to long distance food trafficking, reams and reams of packaging, or the sometimes unethical underpinnings of farm labor. Plus, I want to be able to feed us if need be, with a li'l practice before it possibly becomes necessary :)
We here in America are very spoiled to ridiculously low food prices, that don't properly reflect the true cost of real food. Heck, most of us aren't even used to real food any more. I know it is taking me quite some time to break myself of some food habits, and others I've not even tried to give up (like, say, chocolate and coffee!) It's hard, and I am just trying to seek a balance that I can live with.
Yeah, chocolate and tea here... PC only goes so far, but step away from my cocoa! LOL
Definitely working on the providing for ourselves here.
I agree, local ag is probably closer to the actual cost of food, but that doesn't mean it's affordable...
of course, if we left out all the gourmet produce, and just grew basics, like is done in developing countries... Hmmmm. Talk about indulged.... just look at all the types of potatoes one can buy now.
FWIW --many other countries have significantly lower food prices --gov't subsidy...
Not that you're not right about everything else, lol.
Dear Henini,
You're certainly right about the true cost of food - I guess I just dream and hope that the organic food I get at our local store (from California) is truly organic. But, you're right - it probably doesn't reflect the costs of a smaller farmer.
You get what you pay for.
So true. Unfortunately, the first two years I lived in Fayetteville, I couldn't afford anything but WalMart. Since then I've been able to move up to the health food store (quite a leap in cost, but well worth it if you can afford it - our Ozark Natural Foods has some of the best greens ever!). Someday I'll be able to afford the farmer's market. Luckily, I do manage to grow most of the vegies I need, but I go anyway just to enjoy the wares and people!
We don't have any natural market and our farmer's market is small and sporadic. That is why I need to grow my own. I have a couple of friends who have bigger gardens than me and I am going to ask them for a row in their gardens so I can grow my corn, okra and sunflowers. In return I can give them plants they can't get elsewhere.
Our best local farmer's market is nearly 20 miles away but selection is much better than the new one in my town that opened this past summer. Of course, the prices are cheaper here in the new town market vs. the better market in an upscale town (more-or-less upscale, LOL). I wanted to sell at the better market, but Life has gotten in the way...
Now at age 68, I'm needing looking for a part-time position for supplemental income, first time I've had to look in about 20 years. I had my own small home-renovation business before, but now I have a hard time swinging a hammer.
Great discussion! :)
I've been sitting here trying to formulate what I want to say, but the words just aren't coming together. I've got "Little House on The Prairie" running through my head and how they lived in the old days...LOL! I don't have it in me to do the chores the actors did on that tv show. The work of real life settlers would do me in for sure!
We have become a society where we just buy what we want or need ready made. We keep going into debt, whether we finance those items or pay cash. We have allowed ourselves to become a "want more/need more" society, where we now have to have jobs to pay for those things.
A lot of us here are really working toward a more sustainable lifestyle, ie: saving our natural resources (which saves some of our utility costs), growing our own food (which is much healthier, but also cheaper than store bought), etc. I have learned a lot on DG about things I can do to save money and cut expences on the homefront. But as far as organic foods being so expensive, I think as we get beyond bringing our garden soil back to life, grow our food organically and save seeds for future use, that we'll find in the end the cost of growing organic food will be much cheaper than food grown with the traditional methods being used now.
It would be nice if we could get back to a time where people had a skill or service that they could provide from home to sell or trade with others nearby.
It's nice to think about all the wonderful long range benefits of sustainable ag, but there's a lot of folks around here that struggle to put any food on their table, WalMart or otherwise. We have a small farmer's market here, but I can get the same thing for much cheaper if I go to the flea market and buy what folks are offering from their garden surplus. They don't have membership and marketing fees to pay, they aren't trying to make a living from their garden.
Yes, of course we're not paying the 'real' cost of industrial foods. There's an excellent discussion of the externalities of modern ag in 'The Compassionate Carnivore'. Our whole consumer culture is based on more for less and that's what industrially produced food looks like, especially when you're just trying to pay your bills. As Lwolf said, "I couldn't afford..." and that's the situation for many, many folks.
So how to redress that? If I try to produce a large amount of a single crop, organically, sustainably, will I be able to realize economies of scale and provide good, healthy staples at a more affordable price?
Do I restrict myself to corn, potatoes, and zucchini? Would that work? Because it's not just about sustainable on my farm, it's about sustaining the community, too. And dealing with the fact that they are not wealthy folks, nor are they soup kitchen folks, they are folks just trying to get by, just like me.
As far as developing countries subsidizing food, yes that is true for the staple crop (rice, wheat, corn) but not the rest of the fresh produce.
Pondering,
Jay
Trading work was the way they got the big jobs done. Folks would get together for butcherings, haying, barn and house raisings, ect. You seldom find that kind of community sharing anymore and we are the poorer for it.
Darius,
Do you think you might be able to do some consulting work? You have a vast knowledge of many subjects. Surely there is somebody who would be willing to pay for that knowledge.
Jay, you said "Our whole consumer culture is based on more for less and that's what industrially produced food looks like, especially when you're just trying to pay your bills". That's kind of where I was going with my ramblings. As a society, we have "bought in" to the idea that more/bigger is better, and businesses are marketing to those desires. In reality, we are now over-eating, over-spending and not even on great products. I, for one, am tired of trying to keep up. I just want to live a simple life, eat healthy food and not have the stress of trying to maintain all those things we don't really need to begin with.
So, Jay, Do you have something in mind or doing something already to generate an income from home?
No, I'm afraid I haven't got any answers for you. =0( I posted what I knew about generating income while staying on the place, and it wasn't farm based, it is service based... accounting, editing, etc.
That has its advantages... if you loose your cow, well that's unfortunate, but it's not the mortgage. If you're relying on a crop or livestock and it fails, there goes the farm... You'll still be able to enjoy the health and benefits of raising your own food, probably have surplus to share or sell, but you won't be so financially dependent on the vagaries of weather, disease, and pests. That's why those old pioneers always looked so haggard... keeping the farm depended on the crop.
Even if you and I step out of mainstream, it's mainstream we'll still be making our money from, so somehow we still have to plug into that. Unless you're able to go with the quality angle, which is basically playing to the wealthy and those with sufficient income to be able to pay for something beyond basics. For the bulk of our fellow citizens, organic is still on the indulgence level, unfortunate as that is. And I'm not even considering sustainable, I'm just thinking labeled 'organic'... which is a whole 'nother ball of tar.
That's why I say Hooray for the wealthy, sustainable ag's best hope.
Caj, trading knowledge, like Jay says, falls in the Service area. One problem I see is that many of us who are leaving (or have left) mainstream and big city life for a quieter and more simplified rural life have knowledge that our surrounding folks don't much need or want.
For example: I am a whiz at helping someone design and build a passive solar home. That's not a skill my country neighbors seek when they are just getting by. The market for that skill is in the big cities for folks living there who want to abandon city life for the same reasons we did. They are the ones with deeper pockets than my neighbors.
The first time I made the move from city to rural, I was prepared enough that I already had some land, and quite a tidy stash of cash to promote my lofty ideals. I soon found city/money mentality was very deep in my internal system... when we decided to show horses and needed boots, only the best would do. In reality, a decent pair of $100 boots would have been just fine, but noooo... we had to have $450 boots (1980 prices). So the cash stash evaporated quickly and I had no marketable skills for the area. We lost the farm and our investment after just 3 years.
So it was back to the city where my city/money self was again "safe" and I succumbed to the mores of the day. I still didn't plan properly, and when retirement came (along with no savings because the company I worked for went belly-up) it was a big surprise. Now I have learned LOTS MORE about country life sustainability, other than the economics of it. If I could just take my age/health out of the equation it would be much simpler.
An example of that is the 15+ acres we have of trees. Those trees, properly managed, would be a sustainable supply of firewood. I can no longer fell trees, nor split firewood... nor have access to a mule or horse to snake the trees downhill. So some of my money goes to pay for firewood to be delivered. I can't even trade my trees because no one who does firewood anymore has a mule to bring the trees down. They prefer instead to drive their truck(s) to the trees, not possible on this property.
The old-time barn-raising ethic is strong among my DG friends here. Several volunteered to come for a week last year to pitch in... but gas went sky-high so travel for "fun" was not possible. This year many of them are or will be out of work, thus will have the time, but now have no means.
The whole rural life thing is a conundrum.
Darius' situation reminds me... just how physical this whole proposition is, and how tenuous that can be. Even a month down, recovering from some sort of break or surgery can throw the balance out of whack for a long time.
One of the people who makes her living from her home is actually wheel-chair bound due to auto wreck decades ago. She makes her money accounting, and raises much of her own fresh produce. Last year she was hit with a rare acute leukemia. She's survived the chemo, and is gradually recovering, but she's going to be able to do accounting work long before she'll be able to do the physical work of growing her own food again.
It seems like something less physical might be a good thing to develop, be it bookwork or craft. Then if you have to have rotater cuff surgery, you've still got money coming in.
There's also a woman around here makes custom drapes out of her home.
Also knew someone who rebuilt alternators, but I don't suppose one can do that anymore... do modern cars have alternators?
This message was edited Jan 21, 2009 10:54 AM
Not everyone has marketable skills to provide a service from home, so yes, some will find it tough to make a living from home. And yes, a lot of things that are produced on the home front would be geared more for those with deep pockets. In our case, we are working toward becoming as debt free as possible, so we don't need so much money to make ends meet. But I don't see us giving up the satelite tv, cell phones and internet, so have to make enough to cover our basic expences, plus those listed. We're still planning on a market garden, farm animals, chickens, eggs, rabbits, craft items, decorative painted furniture and handmade country furniture. I know no one thing will provide the income we need, but I feel a good mix ideas/projects should come pretty close.
Sounds like you've got a good mix.
There was an article in Small Farmer's Journal a while back about Sweet Well Farms (?) and their philosophy. They looked around their neighborhood and actually went from door to door and asked what folks needed, what they could pay and that's what they produce. Of course, the neighborhood isn't large enough to support a grade A dairy, but they produce eggs, chicken, fresh produce, hay, contract beef.
I think if we look at our communities, and ask around, we can find out what's needed. Surprisingly enough, here there is a need for housekeeping... we have a large elderly population and the extended families are all working full time jobs, or several part time jobs. Good wage for part time work; last I heard was $12/hr. Hospice may be another avenue, I don't know. And as Darius used to do... small construction.
These aren't on-farm, but they are in demand here and pay decent.
Another person I know actually edits cookbooks while home caring for her dying husband. I get my hair cut by a neighbor who has her shop in her house.
I'm actually amazed how many folks I know who are working out of their homes; I had no idea.
Maybe some of this has given you ideas, Darius? Hate to see you stuck behind the counter at the Circle K. }=0P
Jay, canvassing sounds like a great idea to find out what's really needed!
I'm just starting to trade with neighbors in a small way, by accident. My neighbor found out I'm doing genealogy and she asked me to look up someone and offered to trade for a ream of printer paper.
I think that's how one of my friends ended up keeping books... she's not a CPA or anything, just had some friends who hated justifying their checkbooks and logging expenses. She just does simple stuff, but it helps with the cash flow.
I've picked up a few extra bucks filing as a temp...
Just gotta stay flexible and keep those ears open!
Another friend cooks meals a couple of times a week for folks.
Does anyone I know have a 'regular' job? LOL
Well, we shifted to remote service providers, I work for a VoIP telco support company and DH is a remote network admin on contract - both tied to the city money :) It also requires HS internet and reliable electricity, as well as current technology in our machines.
Neither of us have any marketable skills for the rural economy at this time. I'd like to learn some as plan B (and C and D....), but at this time I'm busy enough as it is learning how to be sustainable myself! The shortened winter days really leave me with no time to do anything other than plan the garden, figure out a pasture plan and try to design a chicken coop and tractor, in addition to caring for the three dogs and barn cat, plus unpacking. Nine hours a day on the computer leaves me not wanting to surf much, so I read a lot instead when I have a spare 30 minutes (heh!)
There are reputable on-line jobs, but they are hard to find and all require DSL or higher speed internet services that aren't always available in the rural areas as of yet. This has driven our moves each time, as we get further out into the country - internet access. Weird eh? We both keep our eyes on alternate income possibilities and additional contract work, but I also have to leave time to work the land and animals as we acquire them. It's a very tough balancing act, one that we're striving hard to find. Yet we press on!
Is satelite internet good enough for your jobs? That's all that's available in the woods around here. I'm not real computer literate, but isn't satelite fast download, but very slow upload? If so, I can see that would make doing business hard.
Hey, Miss H, glad to see you here again! (Wrote that after your last post, but it didn't go through)
I don't think we have DSL available at home either. Been a couple of years since I checked into it, though. I spent a week with Hineni in October...it takes A LOT of self-disipline to do what she does. I'm afraid I would get easily side-tracked.
No DSL here, and though satellite's probably available, the expense wouldn't work for me... but then I just use it for leisure, not work. That'd be very different.
=0) Jay
Howdy MsRobin :) Robin got to see the not-so-glamorous side of working from home. It's basically like wearing a leash for 9 hours...haha! But I gladly choose it any day over commuting, having to buy/prepare box lunches, the inane office politics, costs of clothing and make up and whatnot. And no, we do not all work in our pajamas - that is a very popular misconception...LOL! (although I must confess, at least two of my work associates who are also home workers HAVE stated they were working in their jammies during conference calls - maybe I am an anomaly?)
Luanne - You're more savvy than most, if you understand that the upload speed impacts working from home as opposed to say, surfing the 'net :) My employer will not accept satellite connectivity due to its instability during inclement weather, and the lack of sufficient upload speed is prohibitive from what we've found. Other work-at-home jobs that require high speed internet access don't allow it either, from what I've seen in the limited exploring that I have done. Cable, DSL and some forms of Aircards have been acceptable in things I've looked at.
Jay - yep, if it were simply for surfing, I'd have to pass on the expense too. My employer picks up a portion of the cost of my service.
TGIF all :)
I've wondered about the weather stability for satellite connection; thanks for answering that question. =0) Had no idea about the upload speed.
Livin' and learnin',
Jay
What is "Aircards"?
We've got an aircard, aka wireless internet, I think. Got it through our cell phone company, runs $60 a month, but we can take it anywhere when we are traveling for work. Unfortunately, the signal isn't that great for us. A friend has a different company here in AR and her signal is much stronger, so pages load much faster.
Very interesting - Talking about computers on a homesteading forum! Whatever it takes to stay in the country! This is like the shock I experienced when I first moved to the country 30 years ago and discovered you have to have a vehicle if you want to live in the country! How ironic. I'll have to look into the aircard thing - if it's the same reception as a cell phone, forget it. I just gave up my cell phone, I was so tired of the terrible reception and dropped calls - and that's in a town of 70,000!
Aircards use the same towers as cell phones. In my area, one provider has excellent reception... and all the others (even AT &T) are spotty.
Yup, NO cell phone reception here, have to go down the road two miles.
Consider opening some kind of online business, esp. as a merchant. I lived in an area that had no cell service, no DSL, no cable, just dialup, for some years and kept my strictly online business going in spite of that. Even if you don't think you have any skills, there are lots of things you can sell, especially things you can make. IME, the key is to find a niche, something that you know would never keep you afloat if you had a brick-and-mortar store in your town and had to depend on walk-in trade but where you will find sufficient customers when you have an entire nation to sell to. It does take time and it takes a lot of trial and error, but if I could do it, coming out of academia and knowing nothing whatsoever about building a website or shopping carts or running a business, having $35 in starting capital, then so can other people. It demands the same qualities that homesteading does--independence of spirit, toughness, willingness to risk, ability to work hard, intelligence, analytical ability, being satisfied with low pay for massive amounts of work but high enjoyment, and most of all, the determination of a mule. I tried at first to be like everyone else I saw who was selling similar things online, but I realized that without the volume, I could never hope to get the lowest prices. So I asked myself, what can I do that no one else can do? When you have that, you don't have to compete on price. Then you have to learn how to market that to people, to get them to want what you and only you have: "capitalism creates a need and fills it."
I grow food for myself, I am frugal, I preserve stuff, have bulk stores of food, and I even practice a certain level of plainness in dress and living, but my real homestead is in my brain and my skills, the things I make and grow and sell online. To my mind, this kind of artisanal skill is right in line with the tradition of homesteading--the very skilled village craftsman who can do one thing very well. And who also has a truck garden.:)
This message was edited Jan 26, 2009 6:58 PM
Wow! Love it. =o)
Paracelsus, sounds wonderful. I've tried a couple of things in online marketing. but just lack the computer skills and lack of creative ideas for items to sell. Although after reading your post, that sounds too much like an excuse on my part. I have looked into some things and bought the startup programs for some ideas, but always lack the time or money to do something with it. DH has been telling me for years to take some computer classes, but I don't even know where to start.
Local high school may have someone who can tutor you? We've got a vo-tech college in our little burg has some classes...
Our community center gives free classes.
I don't think we have a community center...the library may. Or towns further south...(Robin and I are same county here so...local...)
Try the schools, kids these days all do computers and someone's bound to be available
You might even work a trade!