Attack of the killer worms?

Figures. No guts no glory! Nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk.

I still have a tube of some salve the doc prescribed last summer for some kind of mold/fungus/slime crud I got in my foot when I blew out a flip flop and got a scrape doing a little pond clean out. You can have and please keep your slime molds.

Earthworms are not all good or all bad. They may not be native species... or they could be native... Some, like the flatworm are easily identified and their effects upon the other worm populations can be easily seen. Others are so closely related that little or no difference can be noted without a very high level of scientific study.

While some forested areas developed sans worms after the ice age they (the worms) did survive in many other areas of the continent and would have slowly migrated back toward those areas without any assistance from humanity. (I have read varying reports as to how far they could reasonably be assumed to migrate per year ranging from 1/2 mile to 3 miles annually depending upon the type of worm and who is doing the study). With this in mind, would the worms, on their own have arrived in your area by the present time? Is the "invasive" worm you are fighting with over the forest an imported foreign species or is it a species that has simply been reintroduced to what was it's native range before the ice floes altered the Earth surface?

When we speak of restoring the natural balance, what time period are we referring too as the "natural" state of affairs? A thousand years ago? 10,000 years? 1,000,000 years? Before man lived in caves? After the continents divided or before?

The Earth has always been in constant change and over all, man has been and will continue to be a part of the cause and effect. But has every change we have been participants in been bad? Have all new species that have developed been deplorable? And with the evolution of each new species has not some other species been pushed aside and in many cases made extinct?

I understand that because the worms are altering the soil in the Aspen forests of Wisconsin, several species of plants are becoming endangered. Is this a major concern to the overall scheme of things or is it simply making way for new species to flourish?

Even if the worms are destroying the forests there and should be eradicated, that does not make them bad for all areas and does not mean people around the continent all need to start digging up the worms and destroying them!
Nor does it mean that those who do find the worms need to be erradicated in their area are being foolish.

Poor Equil nobody wants to take the stand that worms are bad. (Me too) and only due to the deep respect I have for you do I consider these worms a threat. I for one would like the bird flu to arrive and decimate 1/3 of the humans so all of the issues here would be resolved. Yes even if it got me.

Soferdig, careful what you wish for! I think there may be more pleasant ways to die.

Well, it could be happening as we speak with MRSA. I had one from foot surgery in October and I can tell you from first hand experience how close we all are to annihilation from this super bug. I have a friend who got it from a cat bite last June and has not recovered to this day despite repeated rounds of IV antiobiotics. We have as much to fear from disease or infections as we do from our own polluting activity.

Well isn't that cheerful. Don't worry history proves you right. Matter of time for something quick killing and wide spreading. I'm betting it won't be the flu.

The worms will still be eating all the duff which kills off the forest ferns in the north. So really killing a third of the population will do nothing to solve the orginal problem of this post. Back to death to the worms.

Tee he, nobody wants to believe that outdoor cats take a toll on the environment either.

Her excerpt was written in reply to the following questions-

I don't think anyone here claimed NA lost all its earthworms. Look at the prior posts and links. I think quite a few of the people here, unlike the individual asking the questions of the straight dope folk, knew that we still had many native species of earthworms just from reading all the links that were provided in this thread. I do believe that many people never thought much about the worms in their back yards as being native or exotic.

As far as how far to go back. Probably only to pre European Colonization. That's far enough as far as I'm concerned. No native earthworms up north back then.
http://www.nativetech.org/plantgath/endanger.htm
Personally, I don't believe we'll ever be able to restore that type of balance.

Here's a great place to start regarding all the other questions-
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan99/species_costs.html

You know what I think about the Avian Flu sofer. I'm with CoreHHI and do not believe H5N1 is a likely candidate to wipe out over half the world’s population.

Native wormies for everyone I say!

That was a very thoughtful, measured response, ceeadsalaskazone 3! I didn't watch the "movie", or whatever it's called (I hate what Hollywood does to things), but I just finished the old fashioned book version this morning. Some interesting observations/premises there! Some "facts" I have to check on further, but the first 3 I dug into proved to be dead-on accurate. Suspect Weisman would make a good scientist, but a lousy politician! (Too honest and factual). I'm a "worm-hugger" myself, because they've always been nice to my plants; but fully appreciate the disruption that introduction of a non-native species can cause. I sort of thought that was one of the main points of the book; the short-term disruptions caused by introductions of non-native species are cataclysmic to the native species that are experiencing them (e.g., alien earthworms). Homo sapiens sapiens is only INDIGENOUS to Africa. When we got out of Africa is when the trouble started...and continues... Reminds me of that old Pogo cartoon..."We have met the enemy, and they is us". Not to worry...Mother Nature's bigger than all of us, and she's still very much in charge... Politicicians don't get it, but I do!

I wouldn't say that's fact. Just theory. What if the ice age wiped out all the evidence of humans in North America? Who knows, maybe they started here and went to Africa it's just the evidence here was wiped out. I could be really wrong on that, haven't put much thought into it.

This message was edited Jan 25, 2008 11:11 PM

I think most anthropologists agree that homo sapiens evolved in a circumglobal zone, not just Africa. They evolved with other primates in a savannah like environment.

Uh oh.

Looks like I may have stepped on some kind of hot stone here. Trust me, I have no idea why!! Virtually ALL of the validated data I have seen from multiple sources indicates this. Am I messing with "religious beliefs" here? If so, it's misdirected.

Oh nooooo StonoRiver, I think everyone is just slap happy although I would be inclined to agree with Gloria125.

LOL whether from an evolutionary or biblical approach, humanity had to start somewhere and since I have no science to spout and am not quite old enough to know first hand, I guess Africa is as good a place as any!

Bible takes place in the middle east including Africa so either way you can say your right.

That's cheating I tell you!

Whaz a matter Equilibrium? Did ya think we was gonna get all wormy about the idea of originating in Africa? LOL

Naa, I was sort of laughing and thinking "The Earth began as a twinkle in the Solar Nebula's eye some 4.5 billion years ago..." but then I got to thinking about things floating around and well then hetorotrophs came to mind and then I got to thinking how these kinds of thoughts would ultimately round robin us back to our wormie friends again!

Nightie night all. Sleep tight and don't let the Asian Cimex lectularius bite.

Oh Boy!, Oh Boy! Paleontology and Archeology! My favorites! Bible Shmible, all clues are evaluated and passed down histories and myths are helpful in filling in the gaps, but to stake all truths in one book, of which there are many versions, is silly and unscientific. Of course homo sapiens came out of Africa. No doubt there. The ensuing spread from there is a very interesting study.
On a more somber note, I've been experiencing some of the left side weakness/ incoordination a little in the last couple of weeks, so I'll be very interested in my MRI on the 30th of this month. Hmmmm less than a week from now. Now, none of that "best wishes, hope for the best, think positive and other mushy stuff. Let's keep on this observation of our planet and how we on Dave's leave a greener imprint on it and spread the word by our actions. You guys are doing just superbly in this latest exchange, please keep it up and I won't hold any information back at all, ok? OH, sorry, Equil, would you please move this post over to my thread, with my apologies? I'm kinda caught up in this discussion over here and my typing is more labor intensive,tiring,should have put it in other placd..... Caroll

I will take care of cutting and pasting it over into the other thread for you sweetie.

thanks,typingslow

A little something to start your day, "Let's keep on this observation of our planet and how we on Dave's leave a greener imprint on it" -

I would like to say that I made the bird flu statement in jest to make the statement that Homosapien is the cause of many issues and that a thinner population would help the planet. I too love man-kind and belong to it also. Sorry I got every one stirred up.
Carol you need a slave to do your typing.

Soferdig, It didn't bother me, I just want a more pleasant passing when the time comes! Years ago over population was the topic of the day. Everyone was discussing ways to control population growth and birth control was a real hot political/religious topic. Now you rarely hear it discussed or even acknowledged in spite of the growing populations. In fact, now you read about governments worrying about falling birthrates, and in some cases, offering special tax incentives to couples to procreate and increase the birthrate.

Global: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3908/is_200106/ai_n8966622
Japan: http://www.jcer.or.jp/eng/pdf/kenrep82e.pdf
Malaysian Chinese: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDP/is_2001_August_20/ai_78374941
Australia: http://demographics.treasury.gov.au/content/_download/australias_demographic_challenges/html/adc-04.asp

It appears to be a matter of economics around the globe and no one wants to suggest now that a reduced population would be a good thing...

Well, so does the U.S. govenment. Around here people borrow children to get the tax rebate for them.

Im sure all of these children are well loved and cared for. (Ahemmmm!)

Still, I don't think anyone believes that the earth is a better place when we try to turn its surface area into people instead of what would normally be there.

Yep, the aging of the Baby Boomers and the falling birthrate is a closer to home example.

But we cannot have it both ways! We cannot encourage growing birthrates and reduced population at the same time!

Now, how does one borrow a child for the tax rebate? And if you borrow it, is it on paper only or do you actually have to raise it? I could use a few deductions myself!

to use a child for a tax rebate you have to be its soul support for x many months. Or, you have to SAY you were the soul support for the child for x many months, and make sure the rightful owner is now also claiming him. That's how you go about "borrowing" a tax deduction if your don't actually have any of your own.

LOL, I'm not a good liar and the cost of supporting the child would make it a loss instead of a profit. I wonder why anyone would be willing to not claim their child for someone else to claim instead!

When you have ten or more you have some to share.

Our population explosion is primarily from across the ponds and other immigration areas. 27% of our growth is from here. And they have a tendency to have more than 2.5 children. I have no comment on population but I only created one child in my life and I am glad that I did. She is my shining light.
Population growth drives tax revenues and we know how important that is to the federal government. That is the only silent way to increase income.

Hey sofer, if it makes you feel any better I was going to suggest some form of oral birth control in the water but decided against it lest someone not realize I was joking. I believe we're in desperate need of some major economic, social, and cultural changes or we're all going to be in trouble. I knew you were joking because you don’t seem to have a mean bone in your body. The sad reality is that more people need more of everything so I'm with you as far as a need for a thinning of the population and I'm with you on silently creating tax revenues. We're no different than animals and we need food, water, places for cover, places to raise young, and a sustainable environment. Right now I think we're beyond merely flirting with disastrous consequences based on our population growth here in the US alone and you hit it on the head when you referenced immigration. We, like many other countries are grossly overpopulated and many are beginning to experience a decline in quality of life not to mention the toll on the environment. Our resources aren't unlimited although there are those who would have us believe differently and perhaps we all best examine our long range carrying capacity... or lack thereof.

Back to that Avian Flu you joked about- a lethal and fast disease generally doesn’t spread well because it destroys its hosts in an area in no time flat before it can spread to a new area. Think Ebola. On the other hand, a lethal and slow disease is generally able to be stopped by quarantine. Think Anthrax. We are an industrialized nation and my thoughts are that Avian Flu would not be allowed to spread fast enough with high mortality rates such that it would shut down life as we know it.

There are many different strains of H5N1 out there and it is my understanding most are relatively harmless due to low pathogenicity. Only some have proven to be lethal to birds and humans. I do believe as you do that a silver bullet mutation is coming that has the capacity of leading to pandemic. Don’t think H5N1 is it though because killing the host is a poor evolutionary strategy. Many diseases are highly contagious before a person actually has symptoms and given how mobile we are these days, both within our own borders as well as outside them, I suspect we will have a global outbreak of disastrous proportions sooner or later and we won’t even know we’ve been hit until people start dropping like flies. H5N1 doesn't seem a likely candidate to wipe out even a third of the world’s population though. Ah ah ah chew ;)

land capacity for population.

I live in a rural village. Last I checked the population was 3500.

Probably as late as 1970 most people here lived in single family households. Then somebody decided that the quality of life for the most impoverished here would be better if the elderly, disabled, and impoverished could live in projects.

My place was a dairy at the west end of town then. My house held a family of 4 and maybe a couple of grandparents. There were a couple of tenant buildings on the property which covered maybe 15 acres.

Then the property was subdivided. A similar property behind me was a farm with woods. The trees were clear cut on that property. it is still vacant. My property was subdivided into a commercial tract for a John Deere sales area, a 5 acre tract for 50 dwelling project, and my 100 year old house still stands on 2.5 acres.

So an area which had one or maybe two families and was self-supporting now has probably more than 100 people. The noise is unbearable and growing more intolerable every day.

In my opinion the quality of life has not improved. The total population of the town has not increased significantly, but the number of people in a small area has increased drastically.

Maybe my neighbors think their life has improved. I don't know. I know they came from places that had gardens where they grew their own food. Now they don't.

Anyone see the movie "Children of Men". It makes you think.

I admittedly am an eternal optimist and prefer movies with good endings. Is it a movie worth renting?

Without going into a long lecture about global economics etc. it's simple. Poor people and rural people have more children. The US wouldn't be growing in population if it wasn't for immigration. If people are left with farming and no medical care they will tend to die much early and the population over all doesn't increase. Add medical care and now they don't die nearly as fast so the population grows. Only way to stop population growth is bring everyone up to an industrial society or don't give them any assistance.

Look at Mexico. First problem is Mexico is a crappy country with no ability for the common man to make money without being a criminal. That's why they come and will continue to come here until their economy is decent. Doesn't have to be as good as ours but you need to be able to have a decent standard of life. Mexicans have many babies because in their country they die earlier and a large family is security, simple as that. Once in the US the second generation or third generation stops having 5 ,6, 10 kids each.

That's simply not factual. Immigrants and their children account for less than two thirds of the U.S. population growth in the last ten years. Not sure what it has to do with earthworms, though.

Someone else was talking about it. I can't remember where I was reading the population facts. I'll have to go take a look again if I can find them. Whole thing had to do with population curve as a country becomes more industrial the population growth rate starts to fall and in some cases goes negative which is being seen in some European conutries. I don't really care.

The earth worms are much more fun. LOL.

If immigrating earth worms would co-habit the environs and selectively choose an accepting life style of support for their neighbors then the new ones would not be such a detriment. But if they were to expand beyond the balances of the earth around them they would then create a threat to the other earth worms and displace or dislodge the natives. This of course would change the dynamics of the soil and eliminate the natives who have built a strong society that is above the ones that the immigrants have left reducing it to a over taxed soil that fails when the immigrant worms pro dominate.

Since I heard about the poor in cities in South Africa taking puppies and kittens and dangling them by one leg and demanding drivers in intersections buy them or they would kill them (and did in some instances, wringing their necks and other methods) I've given up on this world. I'll be happy to "slip behind the curtain." Maybe I'm just moody these days, but that's a new low for me. Some were caught and fined an amount I don't know how to translate into US$, but I'm sure it was piddling.What a world! And Bush's war! What can you do? Such a helpless feeling. I would have made a good sniper.
Carol