Greenhouse vs. basement

Hi everyone...

After some success with a bio-dome this winter, I'm more hooked than ever on doing seeds and cuttings instead of buying plants - it is an incredibly fulfilling interest.

My husband has teased me about getting a greenhouse for a few years. I've considered it, but now we've moved in to a house that has a large, relatively empty basement (why? because the darn thing leaks!) and I'm wondering if it doesn't make more sense to just set up racks and lights there. The humidity is free! After reading Wrightie's thread about grow lights, it appears even more economical than I had thought.

Then, yesterday, I went to some greenhouses in mid-Tennessee. Their plants looked a lot better than mine. I wonder if the big difference is the sunlight vs. the grow lights. So, once again I'm in a quandary..... whaddya think? Do you use a greenhouse? Unfortunately, I only have so many window sills. Or do you have another preference?

Opinions - educated or not - are welcome! Thanks in advance.

Sheryl

I would think if your just doing your own, then the basement should suffice, the heat is already there from your house, and you wouldn't have to cool down.
I have used my basement for a couple of years now, and with great success. I have alway's thought a greenhouse would be really neat, but it would also be expensive for my zone. I would rather spend money on the co-ops and use the lights for a couple of months in the basement. Now after saying that, I also have a heated shop for overwintering my tropicals in. I keep it at 55 degrees and let the plants go dormant and use no lights at all over the winter. If money is not an issue, then by all means go for the luxery of a greenhouse. I bet I didn't help out much!
My own opinion.

Dan

This message was edited Apr 20, 2007 2:18 PM

I used to do the seed thing with gro lights but they were always spindly and they would dry out quickly......a lot of frustration.

So, I bought a pop up gh and it's amazing! They grow so much stronger than under lights. I can't find the article now, but it's the difference in the foot candles....lights, even a few inches above, are not a strong as outside, even overcast. I hope I never have to go back to growing them inside under lights.
A basement would be good to bring in Brugs and tender plants for the winter....but for seeds.........Go for the gh! lol

Mmm - good advice from both of you, thanks!

Fly_girl, that's exactly what I was afraid of.... And of course, there's those leetle-teeny-tiny windows down there.... hardly worth trying to crowd stuff around them. Grrr.

I really don't want to heat a greenhouse, at least not conventionally. I wonder if there's any decent alternative ways to attract winter heat, southern exposure being the only obvious one that I can think of. As is, I think it would be more of a really big coldframe to start stuff in, lol....but this last two weeks, everything probably would've croaked.

Hmmmm..... there *must* be a way....

Don't give up on the basement idea, lots of people start seeds under lights indoors over winter, there's always a learning curve on everything and you may find some plants are trickier than others but if you couldn't be successful that way there wouldn't be so many people who do it that way. You can obviously do a greenhouse if you want, but in your zone the sun (if it's out during the day) will warm things up a bit during the day but without heat your nights in there aren't going to stay enough warmer than outside temps to help your seedlings.

Hi PC! Things grow so much stonger with sunlight, it's an amazing difference. What you're thinking of is called a "passive greenhouse" There's quite a lot of info out there for how to build, paint, situate you greenhouse in order to take best advantage of the heat from the sun, not sure how effective the techniques would be in your zone though, I think they're more effective in zone 8 and 9 because we don't get as cold, you would need supplemental heat for sure.

I'm hearing a need for seeds in Tennessee :o)

Sheryl,

"I wonder if there's any decent alternative ways to attract winter heat, southern exposure being the only obvious one..."

I'm currently excavating a foundation area for a southern exposure lean-to greenhouse. I'm digging down about 18 inches (and having to remove a lot of rocks in the process) so that I can bury several layers of foam insulation to insulate the floor of the greenhouse from our cold Maine winters. Our frost line goes down about 48 inches. I will protect the foam from burrowing rodents with hardware cloth.

The spot I picked has great southern sun exposure and, since it's on the south side of the house, the house completely shields it from northern winds, and partially shields it from easterly and westerly winds. Since it is a lean-to, a door from the furnace room opens directly into it, as does one of the furnace room windows. That gives the greenhouse the opportunity to be a "parasite" on the furnace room for heat, if need be. I also plan to run an extension cord into the greenhouse for a thermostatically controlled electric oil-bath heater, and to power fans and auxiliary fluorescent lighting. Our day length gets quite short during the winter at this Latitude, so I plan to artificially lengthen the winter days in the greenhouse with over-driven fluorescent lights.

The buried foam insulation will be covered with gravel and topped with concrete pavers. The gravel and concrete pavers will act as "thermal mass". The sun will warm it during the day and during the night it will act as a passive heating source, to help even out the day and night temperature in the greenhouse. The benches and shelves will be supported by concrete blocks, painted black or a dark color, to improve their performance as additional thermal mass.

The greenhouse will be glazed with double wall polycarbonate for some insulation. Eventually I may upgrade some of that to triple wall polycarbonate. During the coldest part of the winter, I may hang some bubble wrap blankets for additional insulation. The bubble wrap is a good insulator, but transmits light rather well.

I don't think all of this buried foam insulation, additional insulation, and energy preplanning is overkill, because our Maine winters can be very cold, with sub-zero temperatures not at all uncommon. On a cold winter morning, still in my pajamas and house shoes, and carrying a morning cup of coffee, I hope to walk out into a greenhouse with relatively warm floors.

MM

This message was edited Apr 21, 2007 11:29 AM

Pagancat, I agree with ecrane3 about using your basement. A greenhouse is a wonderful luxury, but I haven't the space. So I use my basement with grow-lights for cool growing and my spare bedroom for warm-temperature germination and growing. Despite carrying flats up and downstairs, I get relatively problem-free success with this modest system for seeds, bulbs, cuttings and transplants... and hibernation for the brugs.

I do keep the plants very close to the lights -- this is essential to prevent leggy growth. And I take calculated risks with early hardening-off, bringing seedlings indoors at night if necessary. Last year it was in-and-out for a whole week of frosty nights. All my living-room furniture was pushed to one side to make room for all the trays of plants.

MM's detailed description made me drool with envy!

Pagan, I still fantasize about a greenhouse of my own (well, actually... a conservatory), but even if I did get one, I'll bet that I'd still use my whizbang grow light system.

I'd have a GH by now if I didn't live on a lot the size of a postage stamp.

I suppose I'll play devil's advocate and put in my 2 cents. I wouldn't have a greenhouse unless I was in the nursery trade. for me it would be like spending $12
for a $2 pack of seeds. maybe I'm missing something, but if I just plant the seed outside, then it should grow when conditions are right. no money spend on GH, pots, potting soil,heat,water pumps, etc. don't have all the work of maintaining the ideal conditions.then I would have to harden the plants off before being planted outside.
some seeds don't all germinate at the same time, which is good if you plant outside whenever so if an early frost won't kill all plants.maybe ok if I grew tropical plants.
I couldn't even imagine germinating 50 or 100 different varieties with diff temp settings for diff times.whew!No I'd rather just spend the morning throwing my 100 var. of seeds and spend the rest of the time sitting on the porch watching them grow.I could buy all the plants I would ever need for the price of the greenhouse

ok, I know what you mean, but i really don't believe you mean that, you know why? Because your a member of "Dave's Garden" and we all love to garden and learn about gardening. Anybody can throw seeds into the wind so to speak. But some of us just want to increase our germination rate, and some will spend what ever it takes to do that. I just put together a misting table to do cuttings, there is no way i will ever use 300 coleus cuttings. It's an addictive hobby! and beats the hell out of doing nothing. Can't take your money with ya when you die!
Oh, I don't have a greenhouse either, but if I had the room and the money, I'd have one. Until then, I will use the lights and heating mats in the basement to germinate the plants I want to use in my yard. .02
Dan

I would *swear* I've posted an answer on this thread multiple times - let me see if this one shows up and I really am losing my mind...

Yup, must be losing my mind. Okay, here goes (one more TIME!).

Thank you again for all the responses. It gives me great food for thought.

Ms. Lynn, good to "see" you and thanks - that was the phrase I was looking for, passive solar. Duh.

MaineMan - I'm impressed! It sounds like a lot of work but I bet it'll be very worth it. Pictures are always welcome, hint, hint...

Okay, Wrightie, what's the diff between a greenhouse and a conservatory? Cleanliness, lol? I've thought of adding on a "sun room" to the house, too (dreaming again) that probably would not be used in the winter time but would be a nice, breezy place with lots of windows (with screens)....

Andy, do you use special lights or regular fluorescent lights? How close is close? Are there more than two in your fixtures?

Len, I understand what you're saying, and there's a bit of that in me as well, but I find it hard to resist the blooming plants available in stores at the beginning of spring, so there would be *some* savings if I were to start it from seed. And being so aware of the seeds and their progress is really cool - I find seed starting very enjoyable, so...

Diamond Dan - lol! You're right - better than watching TV. And there are worse addictions, right?

good luck pagancat, have fun and keep us posted on your decision.

A residential conservatory is typically attached to the house as a separate living space similar to a sunroom (only much nicer imo), usually has a low foundation of brick or stone around the perimeter, and has glass walls and ceiling/roof. I love the look of them, plus the functionality... I did a quick google image search for you: Top row, numbers 1, 2, 4, and 5 are the typical types that you see in houses in the UK. http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=conservatory&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

Ah yes, the one on the bottom row, 3 in, is very typical of what you see here. Lotsa windows, probably more parallel to the home as opposed to perpendicular... hmmm........... this poor house will look so different when I'm through with it, lol! I'm already talking with a guy about putting dormers in the upstairs (master) bedroom.... there's no view!!! And I want a window seat, and ... and...

I have grown plants from seeds for over 40 years without any problem. I started out with one 2 foot grow light years ago. Today, I have 6 four foot table tops, and two four foot double tier grow light systems. I have, 72 geraiums, 85 dahlias, 144 zinnias, 72, doubble cascade petunias, 72 cherrry tomato plants, and 36 kale plants, all grown from seed. Once March comes around, I move some of my seedlings to the outdoors in to a portable mini greenhouse. This gives me more room to start the next variety of plants. The right kind of grow ligts and the length of the day is is the key to preventing leggy plants. Not all plants require the same length of day. We all would love to have a greenhouse, but not all of us can do it.

Maybe Len is onto something. Maybe the question is not just about "Greenhouse vs. basement". Len seems to be advocating direct sowing, which is a technique that works for some but does not really fit my style. I am currently in my second season of "winter sowing" and I have had great success. I don't see why anybody would want to go through the hassle of an indoor setup for growing hardy perennials...maybe for some annuals or tropicals. I root cuttings outdoors in a shady spot as well.

Maybe one day I will have a greenhouse and wonder how I ever got along without one, but for now I figure that for $60 for potting mix and seeds I can grow 500 plants outdoors. I would think that with some combination of an indoor rack, cold frame and winter sowing the average gardener could grow way more plants than they could possibly use.

- Brent

I don't want to hijack Pagancat's thread but I'm wondering if Dan could tell me (us) more about his misting table?

La

Hey La, I just put this together the last month in preparation for cuttings this year, I picked up tid bits of information here and there, everything used can be obtained locally at Lowes or home Depot with the exception of a few items. Lowes was my choice for a lot of it. Very simply it its just a drip system hanging over a bunch of plants with mister nozzels or fogging nozzels I have both, and used the fogging nozzel first, because it is real soft and easy on leaves then I used the regular mister. All of this is connected to a valve at the hose bib that is regulated by a timer.
I first ran the trunk line above the plants and then back to the place a hose hook-ups to (hose bib). Then at measure intervals of four feet I punctured the 1/2 main line with a little tool they sell, then inserted smaller barbed fittings to which I attached smaller 1/4 line and at the end of the line about 2' above the plants I attached the mister heads. I also attached a end fitting to the Main line to stop the water. At the other end I attached the main 1/2 line to a low voltage valve that was regulated by a timer. Now that's the part I bought elsewhere, although you can get timers at Lowes that will work, I wanted the timing distance a little closer than what those timers offered. I wanted to mist for 10-15 seconds every ten minutes for the first two days then mist for 10-15 seconds every 60 minutes. A timer like that was not available at Lowes. The one they had was on for 2 minutes every two hours. Now all this is available in kit form and the timer sold from the same place.
I have about 250.00 in the system with the timer costing around 190.00. It is available at Berry Hill Irrigation. I have purchased their kits for my containers and hanging baskets so they are watered regularly, with those I can use the cheaper timer that turns on for two minutes or more every day. Last year my brugs suffered because I couldn't keep up with their water needs, so this year I ran a main trunk and will come off of it to water most of my containers. You can also put the miricle grow hose end feeder in line and fertilize at the same time. All this is online at Berry Hill. So far I have been real impressed at the coleus cuttings and some of the seeds I started. The lights I use are Metal Halide and Flourescents (six tube). These were raised for the pictures and are normally a little closer to the plants.
The controller I purchased is by Phytotronics and is model 1A. and retails for 195.00
Here is some information on misting.
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/rosespro/2003063646004668.html
Here is berry hill
http://www.berryhilldrip.com/index.htm
Here is a photo of the misting table
Dan



This message was edited May 1, 2007 10:47 AM

And Another

One more picture, the coleus love it! and have grown even more since this picture, I would say about 95 success rate on the cuttings

Pagancat, we built a greenhouse (10'x14') about 10 years ago, and before that I had a wooden/plastic greenhouse for about 5 years.

Because I'm in zone 5, my greenhouse behaves like a very large cold frame. I don't heat it, and usually start seeds the first of April.

By mid May I've got plants to set out in the garden, and only the ones I've planted. (Haven't we all coddled a plant thinking it was a treasured 'something else' only to have it bloom as a common weed?)

This year I've added automatic window openers (because excessive heat is more of a threat that cold overnight)

In the 15 years I've had the greenhouse, I have not lost a plant to cold.

It's amazing the amount of heat the gravel floor retains overnight.

I guess the benefits of a greenhouse would depend on how you plan to use it (year round vs. short spring season)

Please don't worry about hi-jacking my threads - I always enjoy the strange directions threads often take...

Boy, there's some folks with some really cool set-ups, here. Ironsides, do you have a resource for length of light or is this something you've kind of worked out on your own? Admittedly, I never even thought about it. Additionally, you re-raise an important topic (maybe I should start a new thread for this one?) - lights, what kind and how much. I'm assuming that the stuff I got from Parks is ye old fluorescent bulb, someone told me the whole grow light was a bunch of bull twinkies; what's your thoughts on that?

Dan pretty impressive! Do you worry at all about the humidity in your basement and mold or am I just totally indoctrinated by the post-Katrina money makers?

DB, interesting... funny, I thought you would be much lower than 5a, but I guess the Lakes probably buffer your area? Anyway, yes, I've coddled more than one weed, lol. Happens every time I move to a new environment, grrr...

I have a two tier 8bulb orchid light garden, and start stuff in March inside just to have something green, lol (This year was ever bearing strawberries that were supposed to take 20-30 days to germinate, they all came up in 6 days, lol)

Outside is the best light quality, hands down. I like to push the envelope, when it comes to hardiness, lol.

Moisture,mold and humidity is not an issue at my home. 1. I live on a hill way above the water table. 2. there is a drain in the basement 3. with a forced air gas furnace in the winter some moisture is welcomed. So sad about the post Katrina rip-offs. Up North here, my customers get their monies worth from my company.
Dan

Pagancat,
Everything that I learned about growing plants under lights was learned from reading. My frist book which I still have is called Gardening Indoors Under Lights by Frederick H. and Jacqueline L. Kranz. It is a very old book, and don't think it is published anymore, but you may find a use one around somewhere on line. Another good book out there right now is called The New Seed Starters Handbook by Nancy Bubel. Both books have good information on lenght of days and nights for plants under lights.
Here si a website with some information on what I have been talking about.
http://www.gardensimply.com/articles/inside/ins3.shtml


There is muc h more out there. Don't be afraid to check out the internet, it has good information.

I have used flourescent lights since 1972 and have always loved them. Now, I do some winter sowing too, and I am crazy about that. This past winter I did not get the pots of seeds out until early April. Nonetheless, I have a lot of nice seedlings from that.

About three weeks ago I began sowing cups of seeds for perennials mostly. I think I have about 17 or so which are sprouting and others to follow shortly. As soon as they get big enough to handle, I will put them in community pots outside. Then I hope to plant them out in the fall.

Also, I have begun using the coffee filter method to germinate seeds. Once they have germinated I can put them immediately into pots or in the ground outside. Today I planted about 15 hollyhocks, and I have many more from my late spring sowing outside and ones which have germinated in the cups under the lights. I am especially thrilled with the way morning glories germinate in filters. As soon as a good radical root forms, they are ready to be planted. This really speeds up the process.

Another pleasant surprise is that my last year's daylily seeds which had been soaking a few days began sprouting in the filter almost immediately. In a few days they will be able to go outside to the community pots too.

A greenhouse would be wonderful, but I have enough methods to get along just fine.