Paperbark Maple or Korean Maple?

I'm going to plant a new tree in my front yard and I've narrowed it down to a Korean maple or a paperbark maple. I like the bark of the paperbark better, but I like the leaves of the Korean better. I'm concerned about the hardiness of the paperbark. The maps all say that I live in zone 5, but I think it's more like zone 4. I live a mile or two from Lake Huron. There's a nursery in a nearby town that is farther from the lake and therefore colder in the winter. The owner told me that Koreans are hardy at his place, but paperbarks are not very hardy. He has one growing, but there is a lot of dieback each year. The websites I've been to all claim paperbarks are hardy to zone 4. I plan to plant whichever tree I choose in full sun, in sandy soil with about 6 inches of topsoil.

Is there anything else I should be considering about these two trees? Is there a cultivar of either tree that is more cold hardy or better in some other way?

Thanks for the help,
Rob

Hi Rob from Ann Arbor. Paperbark Maple (Acer griseum) is solidly zone 5 hardy, at least. There are quite a number of old ones around Ann Arbor. I have grown them here for 15 years and they went through -27F in 1993. I don't recall any dieback on them, and the old ones around town predate the early 80s when there were a number of winters that went down to -20 or so. I have heard a number of nurserymen in this area say they are marginal in our climate, including one wholesale grower who used to grow them on the outskirts of town. But that was in a very windy, exposed location, and I suspect that was part of the problem. I suspect that if you are that close to Lake Huron and that if you site the plant carefully so it is not exposed to too much wind that it will grow fine for you and be hardy. It is also best to site most asiatic maples where they won't get too much sun in late winter. They have a tendency to leaf out too early in our continental climate, and even though they are fully hardy, may get killed by late hard freezes. So avoid the wind but don't plant them in that winter sunny niche where they will leaf out and get killed by a freeze in May (or even June where you are...).

I get mixed up on these common names, but I think by Korean Maple you mean A. pseudosieboldianum. That is an outsianding smaller maple with all the grace of A. palmatum (the "japanese maples" that would be very iffy where you are) but much better hardiness. Should eaily be hardy where you are. Be aware that plant may not develop outstanding fall color for several seasons after planting (as shown by treelover Mike from MN, who shared some experience and pics of that plant and its gorgeous fall color -- after a few years).

So if you can grow both, which one? The outstanding bark character of A. griseum is hard to beat. I think in the midwest the fall color nod might go to A. pseudosieboldianum, which has an outstanding kaleidoscope of color when mature. A. griseum can also have great fall color varying from scarlet/crimson/rose. I think in the upper midwest, this plant does not color as well as I have seen it on the east and west coasts though. We can sometimes have freezes that come too early and the leaves just go from green to brown. So it depends whether you want bark or fall color as your first choice attribute. If I could only choose one, it would probably be A. griseum (since you already have tons of great fall color in Alpena, right?). And if I could have only one in my garden, it would be A. griseum too.

David

Thanks, David. I graduated from U of M, so I've spent a few years in Ann Arbor. I was more interested in Frank Allison and the Odd Sox than trees at the time.

After reading your post, I realize the spot I want to plant the tree isn't quite as protected from the wind and sun as it should be. It's full sun, and in the windiest spot in my yard, although not nearly as windy as a farm field would be. I might play it safe and just plant Acer pseudosieboldianum. I don't imagine an Acer griseum would look as good if it was dead.

I looked at the pictures of your yard and woods on GardenWeb earlier this winter and again just now. You have an unbelievably nice yard. My lot isn't as big, but is wooded behind and on the west side of the house. I recently converted my sideyard from grass to a shade/woodland garden, but I'm pretty ignorant about trees and shrubs. I planted an Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' as an understory tree, but I need some shrubs in the area too. There are some native Amelanchiers in the area. I'm having a tough time deciding what shrubs to plant that take shade, look somewhat natural (but not boring) and won't be devoured by the deer. I just read your post about shade tolerant viburnums and I think I'll try some of them. I'm thinking about planting an oakleaf hydrangea, but I don't know if it will survive this far north. Other hydrangeas that I've looked at just look to unnatural for this area, although I'm sure I haven't seen them all. Do you have any other suggestions for shrubs that would look good here?

Here's a link to some more pictures: http://homepage.mac.com/abramr/gardening/westsideyard/westsideyard.html

Here's a picture from today (sorry about the snow) out the kitchen window. You can see the birdfeeder in both pictures for reference if you look closely enough. This is not where I plan to plant the maple that I asked about in the beginning, but where I need some shade tolerant shrub advice.

You Michiganers are SO predictable! Exquisite taste in plants and gardens to die for. Would you give us a break already!

Scott

What specie is korean maple....

Acer griseum (Paperbark Maple) is not hardy here in the Twin Cities, USDA zone 4a. I know of no specimens that have made it.

Acer pseudosieboldianum (Korean Maple) is completely hardy here. I have a Korean maple in my front yard in a very exposed spot and the tree has not had any damage at all.

Korean maple has beautiful fall color, also, but is slow to show its fall color right after planting. It took my tree several years before its true fall color became apparent.

Here are some pics of my tree's fall color in 2006.

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/668839/

Mike

Thanks Mike. I think I'm in zone 4b or 5a, but with your experience, you've convinced me to go with Acer pseudosieboldianum.

I looked at your pictures of the leaf color on your tree. Very nice, but as David mentioned, I have lots of color in my yard already from all the native maples growing around here. More color is always nice, though. I have a native maple that produced a few leaves more colorful than your Acer pseudosieboldianum. I found a few leaves like this on a tree last summer. It's probably some sort of disease, but the tree seems fine, and these are the coolest looking leaves I've ever seen.

Rob

Acer pensylvanicum Teenage Torment™?

I can't believe you already trademarked that name. Always looking for a buck.

I guess you can't go wrong with the Korean Maple and you won't have to pay the extra buck towards Viburnum's trademark. I read somewhere that seedlings can be variable regarding their fall colors. No personal experience as mine is still to young to tell and this might also be about the age of the tree as previously discussed.

Willis

Looks like you've got Acericesis ocellaris maggots on that Maple leaf. Aren't they wild looking! They don't bother the tree as you've already noted but they sure do make for colorful leaves. You should have more this year.

Wow, you identified my spots! I posted that picture on GardenWeb last summer and never got a correct answer. It's maple eyespot gall. Thanks, that was sort of bugging me.

http://www.entm.purdue.edu/Entomology/research/cs/notes295N1/Lecture_links/Lecture15_Gall_Makers_files/frame.htm

Rob

That's a hard one unless you've seen it before. It so bizarre looking from a photograph you start thinking someone photoshopped the image.

You have a particularly nice photo of Maple eyespot gall. I saw it first on a Silver Maple and the spots didn't show up as nicely as they do on your Striped Maple photo. Is there any way you could add that photo to the PlantFiles with a caption denoting what it is on the leaves so that when a person clicks on your photo it lets them know what's going on with the leaf? You have no idea how many people have cut down entire trees unnecessarily because of Maple eyespot gall. It freaks people out. Think about it, a whole tree of bloody eyeballs staring at you? I have quite a few girlfriends who would be demanding that their husbands remove any tree that had spots like that on it.

Would I add it to the particular type of maple that it is? I don't think it's a striped maple. It's just a maple that is growing wild behind my house. I know we have sugar maples here and "soft maples", but specifically what a soft maple is, I'm not sure. My neighbor makes maple syrup, so he should be able to tell me if it's a sugar or a soft maple at least.

Rob

To be quite honest with you I was too excited about your awesome photo and I didn't even pay attention to the actual leaf and assumed it was what V V stated it was. In looking at it, it looks a lot like Acer rubrum to me.

I'd utilize the ability to add captions to indicate the presence of the eyespot gall on the leaf when adding to the PlantFiles.

Ok, I just posted the picture in the plant identification forum for more opinions on what kind of maple it is. Most of the maples turn bright colors, including brilliant reds and oranges, so you're probably right about it being rubrum (They turn bright red, right?).

Sorry, I don't know what a Soft Maple is so I don't know if it has brilliant fall color or not. Acer rubrum (Red Maple) turns a magnificent red in fall. Striped Maple is the common name for Acer pensylvanicum.

It is definitely Acer rubrum, red maple. There are two maples commonly called "soft maple," and they're both related--red maple and silver maple. So named because their lumber is a much softer wood than any other maple. Although related, silver maple leaves are not much like Acer rubrum leaves. It is sometimes tougher to differentiate between Acer rubrum leaves and sugar maple (Acer saccharum), but the toothed margins are a give-a-way--Acer rubrum.

Stiped maple (Acer pensylvanicum) leaves are completely different. Much bigger, more substantial, leathery-textured, and invariably three-lobed, although some red maples sport three lobes as opposed to the usual five. Pictured is an Acer pensylvanicum leaf (without the eye-strain gall ;0).

Scott

'Soft' maples = Red Maple and Silver Maple. So called because they have softer wood than Sugar Maple and Black Maple ('hard' maples).

Note that other maples don't really fit into either grouping (largely because they don't have commercially valuable wood).

Resin

Up here in the North most maples are sugar or red. A naturalist once told me to visualise drawning the serrated leaf of the red across my hand drawing "red" blood and I would always know the difference.

Hey Rob, no time but for a short message here, but I think your side garden is elegant and has beautiful bones, a LOVELY stone path and good backdrop. We Michiganders have exquisite taste don't we...........?

I can see massed ferns hostas epimediums astilbes ajugas lamiastums and other shade lovers would make that a beautiful quiet garden. I am full of suggestions if you want herbaceous material to add to that lovely space. Youn need few if any more woodies. This is a woody forum, but let me tell ya, these people could learn a lot by using HERBACEOUS plants in their gardens.........

And when I go down to OH, I will teach Scott how to say "MICHIGANDERS", LOL!

Thanks for the info on the leaf. I just added it to the Plant files and the Bug files. I'll be able to tell the difference between red maples and sugar maples now, thanks to your tip kandlmidd. Of course if I go help tap trees, it won't do me much good since there won't be any leaves, but I can just look for scars from previous years.

David - Thanks for the compliments. I think I have the herbaceous stuff under control. That part is done. I have lots of japanese painted ferns, Ligularia, Astilbe, Brunnera, Kirengeshoma koreana (I planted bare root plants of that in the fall, so I can't wait to see what it looks like, I've only seen pictures), Cimicifuga (Actaea), Sanguinaria canadensis, Asarum canadense, Heuchera, Tiarella, Dicentra, Lamiastum, Lamium, Polygonatum odoratum 'Variegatum', Polemonium caeruleum, and probably some other stuff too.

I still feel like I need a few shrubs in there, especially between the path and the house. There's seven or eight feet between the path and the house. There's a couple of spots where the wall is quite tall with no windows, so I think a somewhat tall shrub would look nice there to break up the wall and add some height. Right now the Ligularia 'the Rocket' is the tallest thing in there. So if you or someone else has a suggestion, I'm all ears.

Thanks,
Rob

Oakleaf hydrangea, fothergilla, dwarf hydrangea macrophylla, sweetspire, cornus alba 'Elegantissima,' a few dwarf conifers... very nice job, I really dig those stone steps.

Thanks PrairieGirl, I'll go look those up right now!

Oakleaf hydrangea would love the shade but not the cold. I doubt that will be a hardy shrub for you Rob. I find mine here (where it is hardy, except in really cold winters when it can die back) are BELOVED of deer too, especially in winter. So if the cold doesn't get them, the deer will. All hrydrangeas seem here to be enjoyed for winter deer munching.

After I cleared some of the Japanese Honeysuckles as well as some more Buckthorn from my property last fall, I found three Oakleaf Hydrangea. I'm a little far north for them so they must have volunteered from a neighbor's plant but I left them. I'm up by the IL/WI border. They seem to be fine. Really odd to find them in and amongst all the Japanese Honeysuckle.

Forgive me for jumping into this conversation so late (I just added this thread to my favorites) but I have had an acer griseum on an extremely windy and exposed location on my property for several years, and it has thrived. It is a very slow growing tree (six inches a year) but a more lovely and distinctive small tree you can't imagine. I do care for it by weeding, composting, mulching it, and giving it an ironite treatment in spring, since maples actually prefer a more acid soil. One of the wonderful things about it is that the exfoliating bark appears on very young trees.