Monarda Bee Balm - Invasive?

I have seen several post that indicate that this is a great plant for hummingbirds, and butterflies. Unfortunately several have also described it as very invasive. I believe that most of the invasive post have been from further south - North Carolina and south. I am wondering if there is anyone further north in my zone or area who finds this to be invasive. I have 10 minutes south of Washington DC.

It isn't invasive for me..it spreads nicely and can be easily pulled if it strays too close to another plant. Very shallow root system, kind of runners but mostly well behaved.
I have it everywhere, if you keep it dead headed it continues to bloom til fall, I believe I have it in 4 colours so far...

This message was edited Feb 18, 2007 12:24 AM

Pennefeather, I've been gardening within 75 miles of you for decades, I've had monarda in every garden and I've never had it be invasive. I think some people need to realize that not all of us garden in such plant friendly zones and not all of us consider a plant that eventually spreads a foot or two to be a thug. In other words, some people toss around the term invasive with wild abandon.

The monarda in my flower bed here was planted 10 years ago and the clump is about 18 inches across.

For anyone having too much of this, I am willing to take it off your hands. It is a lovely bloom from the pics that I have seen.

Ruby

Pennefeather, I'm glad that you asked this question. We're practically neighbors and I've been wondering about Monarda as well.. Last year I planted two different varieties in my small garden and I love them. Before I purchased mine, I read that they have a tendency to "spread." Fingers are crossed that I haven't created an environmental nuisance.

I would not be without Monarda because I can't think of having fourth of July without it (in arrangements). Having said that...it is invasive and does not stay in the same place...the originnal clump will "move" into other plants in your perennial bed. Cambridge Scarlet is the one that seems to do this more than the others....I got a dwarf one last summer and will see if that one is less invasive but I doubt it. The mildew is also a problem.

I have not found it invasive, that it causes problems, not like "weeds" where they are everywhere. I think some of my wandering Monarda comes from me digging around the plant and unintentionally moving a root to a near by location. I fell they are controlable.

I also agree with hart's post above.

Monarda didyma or Beebalm is native to the eastern US. There are named cultivars available in many shades of violet, pink and red and heights ranging from about 12 or 18 inches to three or four feet tall.

I purchased the cultivar "Jacob Cline" from a mail order nursery last spring and had a bad time with powdery mildew during the summer. I also tried growing Monarda from seed using a "Panorama Mix" type seed. The seedlings too, were afflicted with powdery mildew.

Links to both:
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/55390/index.html
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/74528/index.html

I haven't had mine long enough to have a problem with invasiveness but I have read that planting them in part shade keeps them from spredding. If you decide to try growing this I would watch out for powdery mildew. Good luck.

Thank you everyone for your imput. I think that I am going to try both a tall and dwarf variety in an area that I have that is confined by the house and grass. Actually, now that I think about it, if it does spread, it would only crowd out the weeds!

Sounds like a good place for it....just don't put it in a perennial bed with well behaved plants. Not as bad a gooseneck but it comes close...it's just easier to pull out.

I have a Panorama Red Shades Monarda didyma growing on the east side of the house and it's doing good. I don't really find it invasive, but it spreads a little more each year. I love it early in the year, but later in the season it starts to look pretty ratty and floppy.

I had a Petite Delight and a Jacob Cline growing on the south side of the house and I believe they both died last summer. Obviously they weren't invasive at all. LOL

ditto on the powdery mildew problem.

Just to give you a comparison, I told you how big the monarda clump is. I planted gooseneck loosestrife in the same bed about three or four years ago. That clump is now about 3 feet across by a bit over 2 feet. I also have obedient plant in the same bed, planted at about the same time as the monarda. That would spread like crazy if I didn't pull it back every spring. I've never considered that to be a problem. It takes maybe 15 minutes once a year. Tall phlox I planted about the same time as the loosestrife in another bed had spread actually to a larger clump than the loosestrife. I divided it last fall. An Autumn Joy sedum planted at the same time as the monarda was larger than the monarda clump. I divided that last fall as well.

Part of flower gardening is maintaining flower beds and I can't off hand think of anything that doesn't at least need to be divided every three years or so.

If you like monarda, I'd say give it a try. If it goes wild in your garden it's not at all hard to pull the entire clump up and toss it.

BTW, any of these perennials that spread by rhizomes can be easily controlled by simply blocking the roots. You can do this by taking the bottom out of a large coffee can or other container and planting them in that or even putting burying the metal or plastic border strips.

This message was edited Feb 18, 2007 2:17 PM

Hart,

It sounds very manageable. The area that I am considering is really all by itself - not near my neighbors, just an interior corner against my house. If the plants wanted to spread to another bed, it would have to cross my lawn, and avoid the two kids, golden retriever, and orange cat that think they own everything, but don't clean anything.

penne- can relate to your last comment!
hart- I've never really figured out which part of obedient plant is obedient.....but ditto you on, will spread for sure, and i let them get a few inches tall in spring, til they toughen up just a little, then they're easy to pull up where you don't want. or after that too, each stem will come up itself, no need to go after a root ball.

fyi...they call obediant plant that name for the reason that you can turn the flower head in any dirction when arranging. not obediant in any other way LOL

Ha you're right! chuckle
But I keep bending them and they spring up.... I think I'm dysobedientplantic....

Obedient plant got its name because the flowers are on hinges and you can push them with your finger and they stay in that spot. Try in next year when yours bloom.

By the way, the white obedient plants spread waaaaaay slower than the purple ones.

See, Pennefeather, this is my point about misusing the term invasive. Monarda isn't going to run wild and take over your neighbor's yard and then the town and then the state and the next thing you know the entire earth is covered with monarda. LOL Any perennial will spread. Any perennial. Some of them are more vigorous than others but if you want flowers that don't spread then stick to annuals. And make sure those annuals aren't varieties that self sow.

There is a Physostegia called Miss Manners that is more well behaved. I think there are perennials that spread/run and those that increase in size. (a big difference as far as I am concerned). Almost all annuals will reseed...some alot more than others... (as will alot of perennials)...It is the underground runners that make a plant invasive.

Actually, the term invasive is supposed to be used for non-native plants that grow so aggressively that they crowd out native plants. It has nothing to do with how they spread and, unless you're growing native wildflowers (just kidding) nothing to do with a flower bed really.

The way most people misuse the term, it has nothing to do with how they spread either. I've seen a lot of self sowing plants described as invasives or thugs.

I don't know what annuals you're growing that most of them reseed, but I sure haven't had that experience. Cleome reseeds here reliably and I've had cosmos reseed although they kind of petered out after the second year.

I understand what you're saying about running plants but, as I said, when I started gardening 30 some years ago, I was taught doing regular garden maintenance, including dividing, is part of the territory. I don't see a big difference between pulling back a running plant and dividing a clump. Except that pulling the running plant is easier than digging a big clump and dividing it.

I think nowadays people have less time and pretty much expect everything in their lives to be no maintenance, you know? With smaller yards, most people have smaller beds too and I'm sure that means more maintenance.

The white obedient plant I have is much older than Miss Manners - alba. It hasn't spread more than a few inches in 10 years so I think you can probably safely assume any white obedient plant isn't going to run amok in your bed.

The USDA lists hundreds of native plants as invasive


http://plants.usda.gov/java/noxiousDriver

I think invasive means invasive whether native or exotic. Plenty of exotic plants that are not as invasive as the natives.

Yeah, well, like I said many people misuse the term invasive. I certainly would include many government agencies among those who love to stir the invasive pot. They convince people something is invasive, they get gobs of money and lots of nice new programs to eradicate it. Why else would you consider a native plant to be invasive?

Do any of you remember a couple of years ago when the rose people were going nuts because some government agency was spraying all over the place to kill some supposedly invasive wild rose? And the spray was killing off the rose people's rose bushes?

At any rate, here are a couple of definitions of invasive

What is an Invasive Species? As defined by the National Invasive Species Information Center (NISIC):

An 'invasive species' is defined as a species that is 1) non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and 2) whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health. (Executive Order 13112). Invasive species can be plants, animals, and other organisms (e.g., microbes). Human actions are the primary means of invasive species introductions.

Invasive Species as defined by the Oregon Invasive Species Council:

An invasive species is a non-native species whose introduction does, or is likely to, cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health. An invasive species can be a plant, animal, or any other biologically viable species that enters an ecosystem beyond its native range.

Bottom line - which is what I've been saying from the beginning - is that a lot of people are calling plants invasive when what they really mean is the darn thing spreads in my flower bed and I don't want to bother to divide or pull it back to control it. That doesn't make it invasive.

Any plant that reseeds prolificly, and spreads rapidly by underground stems, taking over large areas of your garden and replacing other plants is invasive. If you would rather call them aggressive/thugs/or a "spreading" plants go ahead. Many of these plants ARE exotic...but many are not.

Wolschke-Bulmahn raised the related issue of invasive natives, arguing that native plant enthusiasts should be more forthright about these problem plants. Diboll tried to explain the reluctance of some to put native invasives in the same category as non-native ones: "I think the origin of that approach is that most people consider [native invasives] natural; they were not brought here by us"; they are problems because of the "changes wrought by our activities." Non-native invasives, on the other hand, "were brought here by us"; "we were the vector."

Hart- I think the main answer to your question of "Why else would you consider a native plant to be invasive?" is because some native plants are big time agricultural pests. Check out Ascepias syriaca or common Milkweed:

http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?keywordquery=asclepias+syriaca&mode=sciname&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

When I mentioned to my SIL that I was planting a butterfly garden and including several types of Milkweed she had a hissy! I was inconsiderate of local farmers according to her. (Not that there are farms left in Crofton, unless you count the sod farm.) She and her husband farm about 70 acres in central Oregon.

Some native plants become "invasive" when we give them optimal conditions for growth and remove all obstructions to their dispersal. Obviously the clear cutting of forested regions promotes fast growing species that thrive in full sun. Grading subdivisions and roads, and forcing rainwater into ditches and runoff ponds encourages the growth of species that thrive in standing water.

Whether a particular species is indigenous to an area or not, humans have changed the rules of the game in many ways and some plants are just better equipped to take advantage of that.

very good point greenkat

I'm not trying to say nothing should ever be considered invasive. Heck, I'm not even saying Levilyla can't call anything invasive if that makes her happy. I'm just trying to make the point that the term is often thrown at any plant that anyone thinks is growing a little too fast in their garden when, in fact, plants spread. They all spread. And I think this is more common now because people have smaller gardens and less time to keep them maintained, so they're more likely to see plants as a problem.

There's probably somebody somewhere who would call any plant you can name invasive depending on what they're trying to do with their land. I think this can and has gone too far. Farmers used to call plants that popped up in their fields weeds and considered dealing with weeds a natural consequence of farming. LOL