adding insult to injury

Here is my collection of ghost seedlings.. and is if that weren't bad enough, today we had frost again. Ouch.

If anyone doubts the hardiness of Ravenea xerophila, this seedling got hit in the very coldest spot in the yard (maybe even as cold as 24F) and though it did lose a leaf, the R rivularis is dead, the R glauca is completely defoliated, and those were next to the building... the other R xerophila in the back yard, where there is a tad more protection, is perfect.

I feel for you. It hit 38F here. Wish we could fast-forward a month weatherwise.

Many palms that survived the freeze are deciding to look bad now, mainly the chamaedoreas and caryotas. They'll make it but I'm resigned to everything looking alot worse before looking any better.

I was outside today, spraying all the spear bases with a second round of Daconil. Most all spears have pushed a half inch to an inch of growth since I marked them a week ago. I lost my digital camera at Disneyland, so no pictures. I'm going to dig out my old Nikon and start a series of photos charting the progress of my palms. This could be the "feel-good comeback hit of the Summer" if my favorites pull through.

Looks bad..... I feel for you all. Theres not much worse than looking at a dead /damaged plant-esp a palm.


Palmbob-what is that phoenix at the far left-the large one that came through really well? You said you think it got to maybe 24 there? On more than one night that low? I may try that one in a protected microclimate in my yard.

The freeze was a single night event... was in the mid 30s the nights before and after. THe Phoenix cluster is a group of three Phoenix canariensis hybrids that have silvery fronds as an adult (at least the parent plants did... not sure what they were hybridized with).

The weather is screwy everywhere this winter.Before Xmas we were in the 50's and 60's (not normal) should have been in the 30's and 40's...now we are below zero each night..haven't been this cold in years. So go figure what kinda summers we are gonna get this year.I hope all the plants recover there in Calif.

Kyle

geez palmbob, that scene reminds me of what Tokyo looked like after Godzilla got thru with it.
Dang.

tigerlily123, how cold does it get where you are at? I have seen these palms all the way up the coast of CA and even a 100 miles up into Oregon. I am close to buying my parents one. They live on the coast in Newport OR. I think there it woudl be a question about drainage due to the rainfall amounts, more then about the cold there.

Also, it might be hard to find a protected microclimate for a palm that gets this big and that enjoys sun. :) What do you have to lose though? They are pretty cheap at Home Depot and would grow pretty slow where you are at. Give it a shot!

Web, it gets cold here-but in patches and on a very irregular pattern. So far we have had 2 nights ( in a row) down to 17, and many nights in the 20's-closer to 26 than 21. Tomorrow night is supposed to get down to between 13 and 15-but it may not.

I would hesitate on a canariensis-partly because there are other Phoenix that I think are supposed to be hardier, theophrastii and sylvestris, and because the leaf stems are so stiff, I think if it ever got semi-large, I would have a hard time getting the leaves tied up to properly protect it. That may be the case with the other two as well..anyone know how supple the leaves are?

I have enough microclimates that it would get full sun-but the size of one is a consideration for sure. You are right though, it would take a long time for that to be a problem! A nice problem though.... They don't sell them here at our HD, I would have to buy it online and grow it out some. I think the wet winters would be a concern as well. At any rate, I have about 23 new palms coming in from Hawaii as soon as this cold spell leaves us-maybe the following week it will be warm enough to ship. In the winter, I think about tropical palms, and in the spring I will start thinking about outdoor ones. I have about 10 or so different kinds planted outside and more in one of the grhouses growing out large enough so I can plant them outside. I think the experimenting is fun too...I just want a semi-fighting chance of it succeeding. I think, a filifera will be another one that I try-even with our wet winters. Your parents have wet winters? How do the filiferas do there-or not?

If it gets down to 15, then no way. Even theophrastii would have a tough time as a guess - though no experience. If it gets that cold, you are really limited to palmate leafed palms. Maybe PalmBob knows, but I know of no non-palmate palm that can handle 13 and 15 degrees.

I think Butias are the most cold hardy feather palms... if you can't grow these, I doubt any others would survive there.

Butia capitata and Phoenix dactyllifera?

Butia is much more cold hardy than any Phoenix

I never said that I can't do Butias...I have a few in the ground and they have done great so far-with no protection-I am thinking what else i can try! lol I also have a Livistona chinensis in the ground that I have been protecting and is still ok. So if I can keep a L. chinensis going ok with protection-why not try some others? I have some Braheas edulis, trithrinax campestris and butia yatays waiting to get bigger before I plant them. I need to get a brahea armata and some more Trachys-I only have the fortunei and princeps.

Keep in mind that at 15 degrees, with a phoenix or some of the others, I would be protecting them with some heavyduty frost blankets and heavyduty weedblock, and xmas lights if I have to. I am only going to do that for a few choice palms, and it only takes about 10 min to wrap a palm, but I don't want to have to do it for a lot of them. We don't get many nights at 15 degrees.

What I am really thinking about is building a grhouse that is about 40' long x25'wide and 20'high and planting palms ( tropical) directly in the ground, with heliconias and some other tropical plants. That is one reason why I am getting these tropical palms in now, so I can get some size on them.

Theophrastii's natural environment is greek southern island of Crete (some 350 miles off North Africa), which is practically frost-free zone 10b...I doubt it could survive 15F (although fairly hardy indeed).

thanks basilio that is good to know. I wonder where it got the reputation for being a palm to try in the colder zones?

tiger lilly, brahea armata doesnt like humidity (or alot of rain). It is one palm that is ideally suited to the desert southwest(az, socal, nevada). It is mostly not grown in the southeast USA for that reason. The Washingtonia Filifera are also not especially adaptable to a humid environment, though perhaps not as sensitive as the Brahea armata. Sabal Bermudana will take the cold, some refs state to 8 F, and have a beautiful green blue color.

Theophrastii does come from a temperate zone, so its requirements are not tropical. But Crete is a warm temperate environment, as opposed to a cool temperate invironment that I understand is yours. I just saw its Plant Files profile and I red that it's supposed to be hardy to 7b (that is, down to 5F) but it doesn't make sense to me, since this palm grows naturally in much, much warmer conditions. I mean, it comes from a climate similar to that of the Canary Islands' palm and I should add, definitely warmer since Crete enjoys very long and very hot summers (Canary Islands are cooler due to oceanic effect), as well as very mild winters, completely frost-free at sea level (where Theophrastii grows). I don't know and I may be wrong, but 7b seems to me way too cold for this palm. If anyone knows otherwise, I'm very interested to learn more about the subject.

This message was edited Feb 5, 2007 4:29 PM

desertpalm-I have always stayed away from the two Washingtonias because of the wet winters we can get, but then I saw this http://ourworld.cs.com/hbrahea333/winterupdate11104.html where he compares the coldhardiness of the two. I figure that his winters are similiar enough to mine to at least give the filifera a try. They grow so fast, that even if I have it a few years ( or more) its worth the try. Its an interesting website.

I have tons of Sabals already, but if I have some extra room open up, I will try the bermudana. It looks like a pretty palm. With the palms that I am getting in, there is a Butia paraguayensis that I am going to tell them to send as well. Haven't even researched it....anyone know anything about it?
I have never heard that about the Braheas-will have to look into it. Just read that they like a pot with poor drainage, but in the winter, they want dry roots....


basilio-I think if I see a Phoenix theo. for sale, I will give it a try-you never know until you give it shot ( sometimes more than once!)

i dont know where that link-photo was taken, but notice that there is a brahea armata there. that suggests that a humid environment is not where they were grown. By the way, yes the filifera is a teriffic cold weather palm, and they get huge. Ive seen them with 60' of height and trunks 3'+ wide, a little too big for me. Down here a tree like that costs 500 a trim(bucket truck), and they need it every few years if you dont want the grey "beard" on them.

The guy is in Georgia-as humid ( or more ) than here in NC. That is what caught my attention-the humidity in the summer and the wet. cold winters. Its all russian roulette....if you have a few perfect years to get some growth on the palm, then you have a fighting chance, or you could have a really wet, colder than normal winter the first year and thats all she wrote! Just depends. I guess thats why it pays to try it a few times. I think with a filifera it would definitely pay to dig about 6-8" deeper and add pebbles, perhaps, to help with the drainage. How would you address amending the soil to avoid having wet feet in the winter? How far down do you go in amending the soil-and with what?

tiger lilly, I would address drainage by adding sand, planting on a high spot in your yard(filifera get so huge I wouldnt create a high spot), and using aerify before the wet winter weather sets in. "aerify" is a surfactant that helps break up clumpy soil, especially clay soil. The idea is to use it for a few years(3-5) until the roots develop, then the roots will ensure drainage by their penetration of the soil. Your soil is the key to the proper treatment, but sand ammendment and elevated areas will work almost anywhere. If your soil has no clay, aerify may have limited impact, though it may even help some in peat-rich areas. If your soil drainage is poor due to excessive peat, add sand. What I do with AZ clay soil is dig a hole 3x the planting box in width, add 30% sand and peat to an equal balance and slightly elevate my palms. If you have high peat(humus) soil, just add 15%-25% sand. Next, I dig a trench "ring" around the planted tree about 1 foot further out(than the original hole) and I make it 1' deep by 1' wide and ammend with extra sand/ and or peat. Now the aerify that I apply will sink to the low spots(ring and original planting hole) and penetrate the soil deeply, providing a deeper draining function around the tree. If your soil does not have clay, I'd just try aerify once and see if the drainage helps(use a hose, fill a pre dug hole about 1' deep and measure the drainage time in a hole before and after treatment(dry between treatments a few days and test during a dry time so rain doesnt confuse the issue). Aerify takes about 1-2 weeks to reach effectiveness and lasts for 5-6 months, so re-apply 2x a year. If I lived in that area, I might also get obsessed and cover the root area with plastic during the wet winter season hoping the rain would run away from the roots of the tree(if it was planted on a high spot, it wouldnt help in a low spot). the ring ditch, is something I have done with just a few of my palms like the braheas, bismarckias, chamaerops and sabals. And its my reaction to the soil in my yard, if you have sandy soil, dont add aerify or sand ammendment, just some peat. Good luck with your filifera, its a grand fan palm. I work with a guy who has (3) 25' + tall filifera that he planted 7 years ago as 24" box trees 3' tall. They are massive already with trunks approaching 3' in diameter. He has already priced their removal at $1500 each(they weigh many tons) as his yard is small and he really didnt leave enough space between his pool and the block wall for them.