Planning Herbs for a Butterfly Host Larval Garden

I still have three bronze fennel plants left from last year. My parsley all died off in the winter. I was wondering if someone has had experiences with other kinds of fennel and all kinds of parsley in order to provide them as larval hosts of butterflies (particularly swallowtails). I didn't have any cats last year so I want to make sure I am using the best varieties of herbs.

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck - I can send you some of my dill seeds. Recently harvested. I have cats on it year round. In fact the BST cats recently ate most of it and then moved over to my curly parsley. LMK.

Thanks, Becky!! I really appreciate your offer but I have dill seeds already. What I should have said is the "best fennels and parsleys" to use to attract butterflies to them as a larval host. Last year I started using bronze fennel for the first time to plant fennel. I have heard from others that regular fennel is better to grow for swallowtail butterflies. I don' t remember the name of the parsley I grew last growing season (although I believe it was Italian something or other) but I was told that there were others that were better for the butterflies. I was wondering if anyone who had the regular fennel and parsley herbs had better results than I have. Appreciate any advice...

Thanks again for your kind offer,

Chuck and Loida

I use curly parsley. The Eastern Black Swallowtail cats ate that and the dill to the ground both in 2005 and 2006.

I don't know about the fennel. I received Bronze Fennel in a trade and will be growing it this year to see if they also like that as well.

Did you grow dill this past year?

I grow dill, green fennel, and sometimes the curly parsley. It seems to vary each year as to what they will choose first, or the most. I read that they will sometimes be attracted to one thing one season and something else the next, so don't give up! You've just got to get the attention of ONE and they'll keep coming.

Just wondering...do you have anything else planted that could be covering the herbs scent? Like garlic??

Last summer I had tons of cats on the bronze fennel but none on the curly or flat leaf parsley.

Maggie

Dear Konkreteblond,

I have been searching the entire website to get your moniker on davesgarden. I was going to ask you about what you said about bronze fennel and aphids last year. I planted for the past two winter growing seasons garlic very close to the fennel for dual purposes...one for the garlic and two for the control of aphids on the bronze fennel. Already the garlilc that was planted this fall is twice the size of the fennel after I pruned the fennel. Do you think the garlic is covering the fennel and parsley scents? The kind of fennel that you grow is what I wanted to add just one plant to the bronze fennel patch. Can me tell which fennel and parsley that you use? It has always been my goal not to have a lot of one kind of plant but one plant of lots of kinds of plants.

I guess I just need to be patient but it doesn' t hurt to spread out the odds.

Thanks,

Chuck

What I've seen here Chuck and Loita, were Black Swallowtails on Curly Parsley. For several years it is the only host plant I had for them in great amounts. When I got some other host plants for them they seemed to like the Bronze Fennel also as much as the Parsley. I haven't ever had a problem with aphids on either one of those plants, .....yet... However with all the Milkweed in my yard next year, I will have to let you know then what happens.
Surprised your Parsley died over there..It's been pretty cool here and it seems to make mine perk up, and if it dies back some before Spring, I know it will return like gangbusters. In fact a second year plant will usually get nice tall flower stalks on them. I allow this on a couple of the plants, not all of them because, 1) it does eek the plants energy to make seed.. and 2) The Black ST cats love to eat the seed pods, often thats where the female will place her eggs.

If your going for minimal as you said, those are the 2 superstars I am satisfied with, out of the several BST larval host plants.

Deb

Thanks, Deb,

We really appreciated your input. However for several years (since I was a boy), I haven't seen any black swallowtails. I was particularly aiming for the Anise Swallowtail and the Desert Black Swallowtail. I think I have seen some of these but I need more of them to so I can photograph them. Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on the swallowtails and maybe I should be concentrating on other kinds also.. What do you think, Deb?

Thanks,

Have a nice day,

Chuck and Loida

Chuck & Loida,
I think we need to look at all the BFs that come to your area from most to least. Working from the most, then to the more rare ones later on. This will get you started the quickest and in being sucessful, encourage you to attempt the more challenging ones as you go.

(*if anyone reading this is from Chuck's area* and have had a lot of certain Butterflies tell us all about it.)

Meanwhile, let's browse photos from the nearest NABA chapter, in your case it is Los Angeles, (i think)...see if there is anything you recognize... etc.
http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabala/gallery.htm

Narrow yourself down to about 6 or less of the most common ones...

Then we go from there to find the plants that you need for hosts.

Here are the 2 you mentioned

Anise Swallowtail:
http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species?l=1363

Desert Black Swallowtail I couldn't find, specifically.. so I eyescaned the list here of Swallowtails and clicked on each one, checking their range..

I did find Pipevine Swallowtail comes there:
http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species?l=1350

Here is a link you can look at with a list of Swallowtails you can check ranges, etc.
http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/search?searchbox=swallowtail

You can dmail me when you choose which ones, and let us know if you need help finding their host plants..

o/~
Deb

I agree with Deb 100%! Sometimes it's easier to attract butterflies that frequent your location vs. the butterflies that many not be in abundance. Find out what their Perris, CA common host plants are and grow those in your yard. And then wait. It's taken me 2 years to finally get many of the butterflies I have wanted in my yard. And it's not just about host plants, it's also about nectar plants and a healthy butterfly habitat as well. You want them to hang around in your yard, not just pass through.

Becky ~ I am going to miss you when you go back to work....:-(...

Deb - I am working two days (Thurs. and Fri.) and then off for the weekend! LOL My next long holiday is Spring Break and then Summer Break after that! I'm counting down! LOL

I have bronze fennel and the green fennel also. It's back and forth, some butterflies prefer one over the other. This fall the green recovered from summer heat better for some reason so they preferred it. I have Italian parsley and it is used at some times of year. Also have a local native parsley which was used in late spring and in summer. I wish I knew the secret of growing Rue better. I've had one plant for a couple of years, does great. Any others I put in die.

Becky, I hope you have a good holiday...I start school in a class called Plant Biology on January 22. One of the key things on the Internet (NY Times, I believe but I could be mistaken) today was that taking classes is good for a long life.

Deb,

I am sending you a d-mail.

Linda, I am going to plant one plant from the green fennel, I think, this spring. I am not interested in keeping the purity so I won't worry about the mixing of cultivars (usuage?). I have a package of seeds from SeedSaversExchange of rue seeds. I need to look at them a little closer to see if they can be started indoors. I will let you know if I have any success with the rue.

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck - Taking classes is awesome! Go for it! On the other hand, teaching shortens your life! ROFL! :-D

Becky, That is exactly why I dropped out in my Senior Year of college with a teaching major.

LOL

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck - Oh my gosh! I hear ya!

What ever you do do not plant garlic around your butterfly plants, I did this for an experiment last year and didn't have any cats until about a month after I dug it all up, I was trying to get rid of the aphids, didn't get rid of the aphids either, guess we just have to put up with them lol

I have planted several different types of the parsley and the curley is the only one that I have had cats on and with the bronze fennel around they don't even bother with the curley parsley until almost all of the fennel is gone, I only have two fennels right now, I'm planting a bunch of curley parsley around my butterfly bushes this year along with nectar plants and where I'm planting the other host plants I'm going to plant more fennel along with some more curley parsley, I love the curley parsley it's so pretty lol I've never tried the green fennel, if I had seeds to it I probably would, but from reading on here I think they prefer the bronze.

Last year I had some cats on my lovage, I'm going to watch this more closely this year and see what happens, it got my curiosity up lol

I'm planting a brand new garden for my host plants and attractors, I'm excited and can't wait until spring! It's going to be a lot bigger, well it's going to be two gardens lol My way of thinking though, I want more than just one fennel and parsley because I want more butterflies, the more you want the more you have to plant and they will come.

LeBug - YOU are so RIGHT! I can attest to that! Which probably explains why I had so many Monarchs this year. I have close to 100 milkweed plants. Plant and they will come for sure!

It has been raining off and on lately. Finally the sun peeped out today and boy! oh boy! did I ever have butterflies in my garden! I guess they go hungry when it is raining and then go on an eating binge when the sun comes out and the rain stops. I must have counted 11 butterflies in my yard at any given moment. They were everywhere. Not just Monarchs, but the usual visitors. Just ALL at once! It was really neat! :-)

I am sooo jealous, my butterflies are long gone :( You must have a big yard too! I don't know if I'll get that many planted but it will be a lot lol I only have about 10 milkweeds and butterfly weed, two fennels and scads of parsley right now but this year who knows lol I forgot about the field, if they come back I will have 6 butterfly weed there ;0)

Good for you, Lea!! I have four milkweeds now (at least I hope), a butterfly bush, three bronze fennels, two passifloras, one oscularia deltoides, numerous columbines and roses, 2 clumps of Red Devil Verbena, lavenders, two Blue Butterfly Pincushion flowers, an orange tree, a crabapple tree and a peach tree, a bout twenty garlic plants that I am going to take out of the fennel bed as soon as they mature in February, several calendulas, primroses, icelandic poppies and snapdragons, a mountain mahogany shrub, pelargoniums as well as old-fashioned geraniums also. Thanks to people like you, I have several seeds to try. I really appreciate what you did for me in seeds and I will try to return the favor by helping out new gardeners with seeds next Fall 2007.

Thanks again,

Chuck

This message was edited Jan 3, 2007 4:20 PM

This message was edited Jan 3, 2007 8:05 PM

Lea and Chuck - Your yards sound like they will be blooming and bringing in the butterflies come Spring!

Something that I just figured out. (Yes, I am a bit slow to figure these things out on my own.) When I trim/prune back my milkweed and some of my other plants. I strip the branches/stalks (of the cut pieces) of leaves and just stick them in the ground. Within a week I saw new leaves coming out on many of them. A few died, but most of the them are doing well and I just added free and quick to grow new plants to my garden! I don't know how long it will take them to grow roots, but they are doing just fine so far. Just an idea to help you increase your plants quicker than seeds! But seeds work well too! :-)

Gosh Chuck lol You need any more plants? lol I couldn't list all of mine out there, that's a job, I haven't even heard of a couple that you have so they must be for your zone, I bet your yard looks great, keep up the good work lol If you have any trouble with milkweeds or butterfly weeds this summer you know who to ask :0) I always put a few extra seeds in there. And yes please get rid of that garlic as soon as you can.

That's an idea Becky, is this at the end of the season or do you have an end of the season in Fl. lol My silky gold butterfly weed just barely had time to bloom and then I didn't get any seed out of it so that idea will be good for that one if I have trouble with it this year. I didn't know you could start them this way, I just found out that we can grow silky gold here, I thought it was for warmer climates.

LeBug - I would assume you could grow cuttings in perlite indoors until the weather warms up. Or just try just sticking some stems/branches in the dirt in your garden. I honestly didn't know to do that and then someone on DG mentioned it, so I tried it and it works! :-) Worth trying with any plants! Many will root under the right conditions. What have you got to lose? Go for it! :-)

Added:

I don't know what is going on with the Florida weather right now. It has been warm, rainy, and feels like Spring not Winter. I thought growing season was over in December, but it is still very warm and sunny (when not raining) and most of my plants are growing like crazy. Go figure. I just hope we don't have a busy hurricane season this year. Warm ocean temps from a mild winter means stronger hurricanes. My worst nightmare!

This message was edited Jan 3, 2007 7:19 PM

That's not good Becky, you must live next to the water, not good, that's the only thing about living so close to the water, I miss the water there, I haven't seen the ocean in so long and I miss it terriably, I take care of my dad and can't go anywhere.

Well I'm going to try that for sure, someone on here mentioned that you could pinch the butterfly weed so when I do that I will just stick it in the ground and see what happens :0) Or was that the milkweed lol

I hear ya Becky, hurricanes are not fun.. But you do live in their territory.

Good to see ya Lea, How ya doin'? Dmail me and let me know how your doing for Passionvine, I will send some to you this week, I finally have some seeds to share now.

Chuck I wanted to show you a picture of my Parsley out there.. I threw some fennel seeds all around the patch too and it came up. The parsley really likes the crisp weather it seems.

I took this picture today... This patch is about 4' from left to right.

Lea - I live about 5-10 miles west of the ocean. And yes! Deb, I live in a Hurricane "zone".

Deb - Your parsley looks wonderful! You are doing a great job sowing & growing your new garden bed!

Hi everyone,
I'm new to this forum, but I've always planted with BFs in mind. I haven't had anything spectacular show up these 15 years I have worked my garden (unless you count the Hummingbird Moth- I LOVE them!!). This past 2006 summer was amazing for Monarchs!!! One milkweed was dripping with Monarch cats; I think I counted 15 on one plant. I've never noticed them in this area (coastal MA) before. Global warming????
BTW, I added 3 plants of milk thistle this summer; it didn't bloom this year; hopefully 2007. I hear the BF's like it. I hope so-- it's brutal thorns makes it pretty dangerous!

Welcome to the forum, Jax4ever, We are always glad to hear from other people.

Deb, Your parsley looks delicious. I guess I will have to go to the local nursery and pick up some kind of parsley (three plants) or the season will pass me up...LOL What are temps like at your place, Deb?

Lea, Great to hear from you.


Thanks,

Chuck

ummmm that parsley looks great Deb! You should see mine right now lol I can just imagine that around my butterfly bushes this summer, I look at yours and it makes me want spring even more! I am in zone envy sooo bad, this is not fair! lol Think if I just threw my parsley seeds out there they would come up, they take so long under lights, this how I've always grown them. I think parsley is as pretty as a flower, call me crazy but I just love the look of it.

Chuck I want to see some pictures this summer :0)Your garden sounds beautiful! I hope to have a camera this year....

Jacks4ever, welcome ;0) I have something that makes the hummers come, send me a dmail, I would be more than happy to share with you.

Waves @ Jax o/~...
Thx Chuck, Lea, & Becky, Last night we received 1/2 inch of much needed rainfall.. The weather is like a New Jersey Autumn around here lately.. from high 30s to 60 & 70 at the highest.. Maybe in the next couple months we will get below 30 at night, but the Wildlife area in back is on the south side of the house, so it is rather protected. Plus I just popped up the little GH in front of the first host bed in the middle so that will protect it even more. I might put the foamboard walls back up when it does get colder on a regular basis. (I had to take it down for the high winds last week.) We hardly ever have freezing for more than 24 hours straight, so that keeps several hardy things from dying back completely.
The parsley plants in front (north side), are still peeking up through the fluffy leaves I covered them with. The Rue is very nice looking too. We will top out at about 60* today. Tomorrow it is expected to be about 70*. If we would more spring & summer rains, to me, this would be a more perfect gardening climate to live in. It would be easier to take those 100+ days end to end with more rain.

Hope that gives you an idea of what our weather is like.. :-)

Good for you, Deb, we need some rain too. So far we have had three rainfalls this Fall and Winter but none of them were deep rains, just enough to get the top of the ground wet. Tonight we had a storm so I will check in a while to see if it amounted to anything.

What kind of critters do you have in your Wildlife area?

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck and Deb - You can have some of my rain! I can honestly say that the weather this Fall and Winter have been more like Summer and Spring. It is supposedly 10 degrees warmer than normal here and my plants think it is Spring. We've been getting rains here every few days. More than it seems for our usual months of rainfall. Global warming? It sure makes ya wonder! I expect to suddenly get blasted with a very cold front with freezing temps and for everything to die completely because the plants are coming up from new sprouts and thinking it's Spring growing season. LOL

Aww Becky thanks! How ya gonna ship rain?? You must lu-v-v-v us, that will cost a fortune, but if you insist, LOL! I used to practically set my watch by Florida rains when we lived there for a few months in '91. I remember the rains well, and enjoyed them very much!
Chuck the wildlife in my yard consists of the usual cast of characters.. Of course Butterflies, Cats, (So far counted 10 BFs to host this year):
Paw Paw (arrived yesterday) Zebra ST
Aristolochia Tomentosa Pipevine ST
Aristolochia macrophylla "
Spicebush Spicebush ST
Sassafras "
Asclepias 3 kinds Monarch/Queens
Parsely,Rue,Fennel Black ST
Agalinis edwards (plateau) Buckeye
Passionflower 2 kinds Gulf Fritillary
Cassia Alata Sulphur
Cassia Privet "
White Clover "
Lupine Silvery Blue
Clammy Weed White Checkerd
(One or 2 of these may be a long shot, but I like the plants.)

Birds from sparrows, to cardinals (& finches), bluejays, wrens, 3 kinds of doves, and a hawk or 2.....Then ghekos, etc, & Squirrels.

From these down to the microscopic, I consider wildlife (I know folks from the boonies are laughing at me now, hehe)....No telling what will be stirred up this year.. thank goodness for great references and if I am stumped DGs superstar IDers have never let me down..

I received 4 plants in the mail yesterday and an ounce (over a thousand) Aristolochia Tomentosa seeds. These were from Easywildflowers, (Red Bottlebrush Buckeye plant (nectar for hummies), 2 (one spotted, one sweet) Joe Pye plants & seeds (nectar), & 1 Paw Paw.

Now I have some heeling in and sowing to do....

o/~



This message was edited Jan 14, 2007 7:54 PM

Deb, That sounds like a beautiful garden. I wish I had more land to plant more but I have my hands full with what I have. You know, you were worried about what people think about your wildlife area. That is YOUR area and nobody else's. It is kind of like I have a Japanese rock garden that I don't talk a lot about. It has no plants; just rocks. I can tell when the rocks shift and when the elements (right now we have a terrible wind) move them about. Not a lot of people would understand but when I first saw a rock garden at Huntingdon Library and Gardens, I just knew that I needed one.

Here's hoping for a nice Spring for all!!! I also hope that I can get photos of Lea's and Deb's gardens. I will try (LOL) to take pics this Spring.


Thanks,

Chuck

Lea has a camera she just hasn't had the time to figure it out yet but I missed out on a lot of pictures last year and that is not an option this year, soon as I get time lol That's a joke son lol I will get this thing figured out and there will be lots of pictures this spring. This is at the top of my to do list this year!

I have a few seeds to the chocolate Joy-pye-weed and still have some pink swamp milkweed seeds left if anybody wants some, I have enough seeds my self, too many lol

Chuck, sorry it's taken me so long to get back but it looks like you got a lot of other opinions too. I would move the garlic. I would plant both green and bronze fennel, dill and parsley. You just never know what they are going to want to use.

In my yard they always prefer the green fennel to the bronze. The aphids prefer the bronze. Every bronze fennel I've had ends up covered in aphids towards the end of the season. That doesn't mean yours will be tho.

I think we've talked before that you have nectar plants also so all you can do now is just wait. Surely you have some swallowtails there! Move the garlic asap. Good luck!

Oh yeah, and Chuck (lean over) "pssssst.....move the Garlic"..

Ben loves Garlic a lot. His favorite thing is Garlic bread (everyone loves that here), and he knows how to plant it. I'm kinda picky where we put it because of the BFs. This year I have room for it, I will set his place to plant soon, haven't figured just where yet. The same will have tomatoes, Basil, and Cilantro too though.

Here is a recipe everyone loves, and a great thing to do with Garlic!

Chop and smush together:
4 Cloves Garlic
1/3 tsp salt

In mini food processor put:
1/4 cup Corn,(Safflower, or Olive Oil.)
1 T. Parsley
1 tsp. Italian seasoning

Put lightly salted Garlic in processor and pulse until the Garlic bits & herbs are chopped finely into the oil.
Pour, spoon or spread onto cut open baguette or french bread. (My friend Vinny who owned an Italian Resturant used a kitchen basting brush to slather the mixture on.) Save any remaining for the next batch in fridge.
Bake in 425* oven until toasted brown on edges. Remove and fold bread back together and chop 1" slices with chef knife.. Toss into the bread basket.. watch it dissappear..

Good with anything!

Covered dish?? Voila! Easy!
Tell them you'll bring the bread.. You can even wait to bake it when you get there.

:-Y