Straw Bale Gardening - 2007 - (part 6)

For those wanting to get an early start on their 2007 bale garden discussion, let's begin here.

I'm still watching my bales through early winter to see how they hold up. Most of them will go to the mulch pile, but the bales I had for my tomatoes are holding up well. I just may see if I can get 2 years out of them. We'll see.

Kent

Past discussions:

Part 1: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/584625/

Part 2: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/590925/

Part 3: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/598673/

Part 4: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/614124/

Part 5: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/631772/

An invitation to put your bale garden on the map: http://www.frappr.com/strawbalegardeners

(Edited to correct a link problem)

This message was edited Dec 29, 2006 8:50 PM

Interesting. I never heard or thought of bale gardening before.

Hi, Kent!

IThank you for the topic. 've read quite a bit of "Part 1," and I'm very impressed. We recently moved to the country and would like to put in a vegetable garden this spring. Since our soil needs work (clay), this looks like a great way to start a garden without already having spent the time and money arranging to have topsoil hauled in for this coming year's planting.

There is a lot of hay around here. I'm assuming this will work with hay, too. (But I'll call the feed store on Tuesday and see if they have wheat bales.)

A quick question. I live in zone 8. The nightime temps do fall to freezing or a few degrees below this time of year and during the day we get to the high 40s, low 50s, and I was wondering...

Do you think if I set up a bale in a sunny location and watered it a few times, that I could set up the cold frame my husband got me for Christmas right on top of some purchased growing soil that's been spread on top of the bale and grow some winter greens? Wouldn't the heat generated from decomposition of the straw work in tandem with the greenhouse effect and make it warm enough to sprout those little lettuce seedlings?

Being an ex-city girl, all this gardening stuff is new to me and I don't really know what's possible and what's not. What do you think?

This message was edited Dec 31, 2006 5:59 PM

Patricia,

Good question. However, I have zero experience with cold-frames, winter gardening, etc. But your reasoning sounds logical and sound.

I'll put your question out to the other members, especially those who have used the "hoop houses" that were discussed early on.

There are pics and references of the hoop house somewhere in our threads.

Kent

Thanks, Kent. I'm stuck inside with a nasty cold, so I'll have time to sit down and look at all 6 threads in detail. I think I'm going to give it a shot.

-Pat

Hi Patricia,

I see nobody had written but they probably don't have answers for you just like I don't. For one thing I am in zone 5, and then I have the hoophouse Kent spoke of but because I am in such a cold zone I don't even attempt to use it for another 4 months at least. I would own the electric company. Since you are in zone 8, you might have some luck with the cold weather crops like spinach, lettuce, etc.

I'm not sure what kind of cold frame you have so don't know how to advise you. Not that I would know anyway, but I hate to see you try and get discouraged, but that is the only way you know if you can or not.

You can be a guinie (sic) pig for the rest of us. Hope you are over your cold by now. Jeanette

I love this idea,
I have a question , and I know with as long as this post has been its probably been asked. I promise I looked to find the answer but by the third link my eyes were going crosseyed. LOL


Can anyone give me a list of things that could be grown with this method?
I know a few but a list would be great. Im also looking to grow things other than veggies. Do you think it could work.

I posted before that I was interested in trying this this spring.
Well, things have changed somewhat for me and I have been diagnosed with stage IV breast cancer.
I'm still interested in bale gardening, but now I need it to be "low impact, and handicap friendly".
Meaning I can't do much bending and lifting now, so throw out those ideas for a user friendly bale garden, please. It'll give me something to look forward to. :)

Patricia S
http://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/strawbales.htm
here are a lot of answers for you. Just that we can't answer the question about when and at what temps lettuce germinates in your area. But your county extension agent can answer that for you with a free call.
You might set up the bales so you can cover them at night if the temps dip to freezing. You could set up some kind of a hoop covering or frankly - 2 chairs at either end will hold a cloth up
make sure your covering does not touch the leaves as the cold will migrate thru and freeze the leaves.

LadyPCer this will be my first year trying the strawbale gardening method too but it seems to me this is perfect for your current situation. Also wanted you to know that I will keep you in my prayers for a quick complete recovery so you can get back into the full swing of things in no time. Sending you a hug.

carol

ladypcer, I had a successful bale garden last summer, and it can be done with low impact, if you set it up right from the beginning. When you set up your bales, I would suggest you line them up end to end (like dominos), so you don't have much width to bend and reach across. If you plan to grow tomatoes, or anything else that will need support, be sure and have a solid support in place BEFORE you plant the tomatoes. I used tall poles in the ground in between the bales last summer and the tomatoe plants got so big and heavy with tomatoes the poles were falling over and I spent a lot of time tying ropes to the poles and attaching the ropes to the ground with tent stakes to hold up the poles, tying strips of sheet to the branches of the tomatoe plants and attaching them to the poles, etc. If you can get someone to help you set up a section of fence wire or something sturdy for support while you set the bales into position, it will save you countless hours of work when it is hot and sweaty work. I would also set up my bales in an "S" shape instead of rows, so you can run a drip hose over each bale and you can water your whole garden by just turning on the faucet to your drip hoses.

Last but not least, I want to mention that there are a whole lot of wonderful people on the healthy living forum who discuss their medical conditions and support each other. I invite you to visit the healthy living forum and start a thread there. I am sure you will find other women who have had breast cancer, or have a friend or family member who has gone through that, and they can help you get through it. :-)

Big hug,
Cindy

LadyPCer
Cindy had some good suggestions and I just wanted to echo that you should put the staking system in before you plant. I ended up with the wackiest looking crazy set up because I tried to use cages and bamboo poles and propping apparatus - which most fell over under the weight of the vines. You may not be up to that much work so I hope you can find someone to drive some fence poles in the ground for you. I think the best system I heard of was stretching woven fence along the fence poles. That at least is strong enough to tie the vines right up to.
So sorry to hear of your health, I hope the best for you as you work through this. We've also had family members with this cancer and there were good outcomes.
Hugs to you
A

I'd like to try this method this year. Once you build those trellises (that will be my big challenge), do you still have to tie the tomatoes to it as they grow or do they grab on by themselves?

Gwen

Gwen,

I used concrete wire for my trellis which has about a 6 inch square hole. I weave the tomato vines in as I can, but you'll still have to use some ties to pull some of the vines in close, especially if you don't sucker the tomatoes.

Be sure to use some sturdy posts set deep enough in the ground to support the wire and the weight of the tomatoes.

I love the stretch, rubber ties that come in rolls. They work great and you can tear off the length you need.

Here's a photo of my in-line tomato trellis from last August.

In addition to the photos within the previous threads, alot of us have diaries with additional photos and comments. Check them out.

I've been offline for a bit, so welcome to some of the new members joining our thread. Looking forward to seeing your bale garden later on.

Kent


Kent

Bales for the tomatoes are holding up reasonably well, but it's still too early to tell whether I'll reuse them.

In addition to weaving the vines in and out of the wire, you can see all the green stretch ties I used to keep the vines close to the trellis.

Kent

Here's the row I had the cucumbers and squash and finally the collards. They have really collapsed.

My guess is the trellis for the tomatoes kept the weight off the bales in that row.

What's left of these bales will go to the compost pile before Spring.

Kent

So you took the concrete wire (it comes crossed like that?) and attached it to the white posts? It looks like it's hooked on nails. Was that hard? Is it something I can do myself, weak thing that I am?

I'm curious about the wheat seeds sprouting. I have used straw for gardening for several years and always have a problem with it sprouting. I don't think I bought wheat, it was some kind of straw. When you compost it, does that really kill the wheat from sprouting later in the garden? I've been using it for lasagna gardening and also grew my potatoes in it for the past two years.

I have gone back and read much of the previous. All the vegies look glorious!

For the person who lives in Redwood City and gets their straw from Pastorino's, if they're still following this thread - I'm from that area (know Pastorino's well) and I used to get hay bales (for Halloween decorating) from the little produce stand on the way out of Menlo Park heading toward Portola Valley. That little place on the right as you head out, you know where I mean? If you call ahead, they can get them for you, at least they used to.

I love that whole area - grew up in San Mateo and then lived in the RWC/Menlo area for many years. I miss it.

Gwen

Gwen,

You'll definitely need some help if you use rolled-up concrete wire, which is what I had. I hung it on the nails myself, but I really should have gotten some help. The tension in the wire from being rolled up is very strong. You can get it in flat panels which would be more manageable for shorter rows.

Other materials may work better in your case. You may not need such a heavy wire.

I haven't used any old straw from my compost pile. I imagine it will still sprout over time wherever you use it.

Kent

Kent - Last June I seeded Sweet 100's directly into bales - with a little soil that looked pretty much like your collapsed bales. Somebody had given me some bales that had been out over the previous winter. They were pretty loose but I took the freebies.

The tomatoes grew just fine and I guess put some roots down into the ground. You could plant potatoes in that straw also I think.
Or trash it and start over.

alyrics, my buck-eye state friend, that's a great idea about planting potatoes.

I'm going to pitch some of the other bales on top of the double row to add some more volume.

I hadn't even considered potatoes until your suggestion. Thanks.

Kent


(Edited for spelling correction)

This message was edited Jan 20, 2007 7:30 PM

I've been intriqued by this crazy sounding idea of planting potatoes in piled up used car tires. It sounds like the ultimate recycling effort. I'm just not sure what the neighbors would say. But maybe you have the room to try it. I wondered if potatoes need really warm soil to bear because it seems like it would get very hot inside a pile of car tires and then there is that chemical contamination question - rubber is not completely inert when its heated. I've only ever seen potatoes hilled up in a regular garden.

I lost my location for straw bales this coming year so will have to start looking around for another spot. This yr I am planting more San Marzano - best tomato I had last yr. Good luck everybody.

Can someone give any suggestions for othe types of bale that can be used?
I went to buy some bales of hay yesterday to start my garden and they wanted $6.50 per bale!!!!

I'm going to look in other places and check out prices.

Wow! This is too cool! Been reading the discussions here on the strawbale gardening and I'm gonna have to try it! I have noticed a lot of you folks have run into high prices for your straw bales and I have a couple of suggestions. I live in farm country so when I need straw or hay I just call my neighbor and ask him to drop off how many I need in the driveway. To get better prices on your straw try to get ahold of the farmers themselves. Maybe call around to places that board horses or have any kind of animals in your area and ask them where they get theirs. If they aren't in the buisiness of selling it they will probably be more than happy to tell you where they get it and you won't have to pay retail prices. Then when you talk to the farmer explain what you are doing and ask if he has any spoiled bales he wants to get rid of. People with horses etc. don't want bales that have gotten wet or gotten other animal feces on them because of mold etc. so a reputable farmer is usually happy to sell you these bales at a discount. My neighbor one year had raccons ruin a bunch of bales and he sold them to me for practicly nothing. Your farmer may not do this but it never hurts to ask. My neighbor knows I use my straw for mulching etc. so I always tell him to give me whatever no one else wants and I seldom pay over $2 a bale though since I live in farm country straw is deffinately not as expensive as in the city. Just a couple of thoughts, it never hurts to ask.

Thanks spot,
Thought No one was going to respond. LOL

I started one with a bale of hay I have and found it sprouting today.
I planted some annuals flower seeds in it.( mix of stuff) Just to see what would happen.
Its going good so far.


thanks again.
GG

well, I've resigned myself to paying a bit more for my hay bales, because this gardening experiment (raised beds in the eastern corner of the yard, near the neighbors' split rail fence), would cost alot more, if I have to haul in topsoil, compost, bed edging. I think this will be attractive enough, so they won't complain-I was going to plant some Japanese maples in that corner last year, but my neighbor said it would shade out her peonies & iris. I have to use what I have & this is the only sunny spot in my yard that's close enough to the hose bib, to make watering feasible. I think I'll put a soaker hose on top & some paper underneath for weeds....

Gosh I can't believe how many of you DGers are so sensitive to neighbor's wishes. I've always lived next to people who just do what they want and could care less of the impact to our yard! I wanna live next to some of YOU.

Gwen

LOL! My neighbors are all farmers and they probably think I'm nuts with all my gardening experiments etc. but they are all wonderful to me just the same. Everyone around here knows that if you come to my house you will have a hard time leaving without a plant of some sort.

Chesapeake: you wrote in Part 5 about your husband being in a motorized wheelchair. This method should be perfect for him. Try to plan the layout of the garden so the drainage from watering is away from his main entry to the bales. I have a photo of my Daddy and his bale garden in my diary (6/3/06). He has had several strokes and this method was the only way he could come close to gardening again. Stay in touch.

Spot: very good suggestions

GG: this thread is heating up faster than I expected; I haven't been watching as often

Welcome aboard to those recently weighing in.

Kent

Just trying to keep the peace-we moved in 2.5 years ago, they've lived here for 25+. They allowed us to put up wire on the existing split-rail fence, so we could keep our dog in, & they're very nice people. When they divided their iris last year they gave me some, & they've already let us cut a few limbs off the humonguous maple that borders our yard (& shades out everything!). I think the straw bale garden will look good from their side, too (it will be an elongated 'L', maybe 11 bales long & 2 short (this is on a slope)-I want to plant 'Peach Melba' nasturtium & ipomea to cascade over the sides...

thanks Kent.
If I could find some economical way of buying lots of hay I would go this way for sure. Its good on your back it adds some height to your garden and can make a quick border. Its perfect.
I'm still hunting for hay. Will contact some farms in the area and see what I come up with.


Thanks all.
GG

GG. I would try St. Cloud. Its a 30 minute drive across 1-92, but I cant imagine some of those farm stores not having something. Heck..I cant imagine almost not finding it along 1-92. I want to get to the east side..not far out of melbourne. The trees are full of the most gorgeous air plants...thousands of them..just dont know how to get in the swamp. Saw a guy at christmas out in the middle of nowhere, on 1-92, on his bike. He had been collecting them..they were piled so high and just spilling off that bike.

Really,
I have an air plant project I want to do one day.
They grow in my backyard. on the tree's and down the street.
I find them on the lawn every now and then.
I just love'em.

I've tried the feed store on Malabar rd ( being there is a lot of farming back in that area, but they want way too much )
I'll check 192 thanks for the info.

I didn't try to save my bales from last year. As soon as I pulled the old plants I broke the bales up and spread them in my square of timbers. I will just put this year's bales on top of it all. I used straw and hay bales and I had much better results from the grass hay bales. I will be using them again.

Hmm ,
perhaps someone can tell me the differences in Hay.

Sorry I'm sure it sounds silly but I haven't a clue about straw, hay bales or grass hay??

Maybe thats why they tried to over charge me when I went to buy hay. LOL
I dont know the first thing about it. =0

The difference in hay and straw is that hay is grown specificly for animal feed while straw is a byproduct of producing a crop, has little nutritional value for animals and is normally sold as animal bedding. Wheat straw is the leftover stems from harvesting wheat, oat straw from oats etc. From what my neighbors tell me oat straw is prefered by horse enthusiasts because it is brighter and shinier. Hay can be made from a number of different plants, grasses, clovers, and alfalfa. Because it is grown for animal feed there is actualy quite a lot that goes into growing and managing a hayfield and there is a large difference in the nutritional quatity of different types of hay and how well it is managed. Alfalfa is by far the most popular around here and it can produce up to three cuttings a year with the first cutting being the best if I remember correctly. Because hay would have the high nitrogen leafy material and not just the high carbon stalks it could actually be better for this type of project except for one major drawback, it would have a much higher concentration of weed and the main crop seeds than straw because the no seeds are removed as they are in the case of wheat and oats. Also hay is normally MUCH more expensive, it is the only product from that field, not a byproduct from growing something else. Hay and straw are easily distinguishable by sight, hay is greenish and should have lots of dried flaky leafy material in the bale, while straw is tan in the case of wheat and goldish and shiny in the case of oat. My neighbor could go on and on on this subject but thats about all I know except in this area anything other than alfalfa is a rarity. I used to have goats and goats believe it or not are picky eaters when it comes to hay. They prefer the leafier stuff and shun the stems in alfalfa but trying to find grass or clover hay around here is like pulling teeth. Considering goats will eat a thorny rosebush down to the ground before they will touch a blade of grass I certainly never understood their rejection of the stems in alfalfa, my neighbors really got a hoot out of my "hayburners" though. LOL By the way, you folks purchasing over 20 or 30 bales at a time are probably buying more than most of the retailers in the city, so when your talking to a farmer try to cut a deal based on quantity and quality. If you are willing to buy 50 bales of wheat straw you may be able to get a better deal than the guy buying 5 or ten bales of the shiniest oat straw. Ask the price of straw, and then ask if if he will cut you a deal if you buy X amount. Your not dealing with Walmart, prices arent set in stone. Just remember to be polite and friendly, not argumentative or you could end up with no straw at all! LOL One other thing I just thought of. You may be able to get a better deal in the fall when straw and hay are more abundant and the farmer hasn't had to store it all winter. Prices of straw and hay vary according to time of year around here. If you buy it in the fall and stack it and cover it with it tarp you shouldn't have any problems.

Thank you Kent for the welcome. There is a sidewalk going away from the back of the house and around to the garden shed. Quite a length, maybe 75 to 100 feet. My son can run the bales along the sidewalk for him. That way he will use the walkway on his motorized chair to get to his plants. He is very excited and can't wait until spring, he wants to start now.

Spot: nice, updated discourse on the difference between hay and straw and "The Art of the Deal" in bale purchases and market availability. // I kept reading the same line over and over until I got a ruler and placed it on the screen to keep my place. :-) //

I bought my bales exactly the same way, asking for a price on a few then negotiating a discount for a bulk purchase w/delivery. Doing the same this year; a buddy and I are splitting the purchase. Price for wheat straw should be 2.50/bale for 100 or 3/bale for less than 100.

NOTE: for those getting their bales any time soon, be sure to inquire about any herbicides that were used on the field. If so, DO NOT purchase those bales.

Kent

Good info about the herbicides. Didn't think of that.

Boy!! I cannot believe how many of you guys have been on here since I was just the other day. And a lot of new ones. That is wonderful. The more involved, the more ideas we get. I finally got out a piece of paper and pen to make notes on who was asking what and I know I missed a lot, but then a lot of others answered them.

I read about Chesapeke's problem and then couldn't find it again until Kent responded. This is a wonderful solution for your husband with his wheelchair. Be sure to take pictures as you go. This to all of you. We want pictures!!

Gwen, Most all kinds of straw will have some seeds. And if you have them loose or spread out you are going to get more seeds sprouting than if they are kept tight. Also Gwen, maybe instead of trying to use the cement wire like Kent did, take a look at the cattle panels. They might be easier to work with.

Alyrics, paint the tires white. They won't look so much like tires and besides the black draws the heat from the sun and burns the roots of the plants. I suppose some plants can take that heat but they still would have plenty if you paint them.

Guardian Girl, You can plant almost any plant in these except, I think, root vegetables. You can plant the squashes, cukes, spinaches, basils, etc. Then of course the flowers. Most of the flowers will only need stakes if they are tall, netting or something for sweet peas etc. I didn't see your zone, but I am in zone 5 and love dahlias. But, they have to be taken in in the winter so I plant them in big pots and take pots and all in. Sometimes I take them out like I am digging them and sometimes I leave them in thepots. Same with Cannas. etc.

GG you had another issue, but now I can't remember and I quit taking notes. It's late. So nice to see you all so excited about this. Must be cabin fever. LOL. I still have 4 or 5 months to go to plant except I do plant my petunias in February. Thank heavens for the seed catalogs.

Jeanette

Now I see why I couldn't find your post Chesapeake. You posted to the last thread we had closed out. That is why nobody but Kent responded to you. They didn't know what you were talking about. Why don't you re-post it here. These people have tons of good ideas for you.

Jeanette