Clematis for Shrubs

Now I have six acres, 4 acres of which is old growth woods, and only a small part of that I am making into a woodland garden. The other 2 acres is sun, and most of that I am making into a garden, though it is in its adolescence at best.

These pictures however are all from my old garden. That was about 2/3 of an acre, and crammed to the gills with plants (as you can kind of sense even from these limited pictures).

I buy clematis from wherever I can get what I want. Many good clems you have to get from mailorder places because they just aren't available locally, though in SE Michigan we have a few nurseries that have pretty good selections of clematis. They are increasingly carrying the smaller flowered varieties and the newer Polish hybrids, which for cold-climate (z5 and below) gardeners are the most useful clematis, at least for my style of gardening.

The most important mailorder sources of clems are Chalk Hill, Joy Creek, Brushwood, and between these 3 you can find most of what you want. I would avoid Completely Clematis myself, their plants are inferior and pricey. Buy the biggest plants you can find and afford, OR buy small plants and grow them on in a container amply fertilized and watered for one season then plant them out in the fall (much better results for me than planting a puny plant in the open ground). As I have said but will repeat, clems are heavy feeders and love ample water.

That does it, I'm saving this thread! Great information and pictures, David. And "Mrs. Robert Brydon" (peculiar that naming the plant for the wife by using the name of the husband!) goes on my wish list, too. As does Campanula lactifolia "Pouffe," which I've heretofore never heard of (the cultivar, not the species). David, is that actually Aconite in bloom with Clematis and Campanulas?

I have remembered the beauty of your garden (and garden pictures), but it literally takes my breath away to see them again. I was priviledged to take a day trip to Boston yesterday and visit the Boston Museum of Fine Arts and stand before one big wall of, I don't know, maybe ten Monet paintings, two waterlilies, one haystack, one of poplars, one Giverney, and more, not to mention a pair of Picasso's to the side, four Van Gogh's behind, a few Pissaro's, several Renoir's--you get the picture. Anyway, the exuberant bounty and color of your garden pictures touch me the same way.

Must say this too, David. We have fallen on some hard times here. My wife lost her job and finding a new one hasn't happened quite quickly enough, and of course my airline job is (literally) about half of what it once was. Two kids in college. Bad timing for all this. Things are really bad. Unless a miracle happens, we are going to have to sell the house. Of course, if it wasn't for the garden (and the collection) that wouldn't mean half as much. But I think you and me are about the same ages, and for you to start a new garden again with enthusiasm is beginning to look like it will serve as a model. Right now the task seems so overwhelming: in addition to 25 years of household stuff to sift and box and carry PLUS dozens and dozens of garden treasures and three plastic covered coldframes overflowing with material in containers. I'm not sure I'll have the strength! If I can get through all of that, starting the creative side of it again is exciting. Don't really know why I just appended all this here, except to say that your drive has impressed me.

Scott

Sorry to hear about your challenges, Scott. Hope all works out. Maybe 2007 will bring better times. Remember what each Spring represents. Good luck!

Victor

Well Scott, to answer your question first, I think you are talking about the pictures of Betty Corning, right? And the various other plants that can be see there, right? I can see Geranium 'Nimbus', there is also 'Brookside' (another winner geranium), a little orange Geum whose name I forgot, Nepeta sibirica ('Souvenir D'Andre Chaudron), a few crowded yellow roses (this is my "blue border" from the old place, which has yellows, oranges, and a little red here and there). The other darker purple plant which I wonder if you thought was an aconite is Salvia 'Indigo Spires'.

Thank you for your kind words. I really miss my old garden. Part of me wonders if I will ever have a garden like that again. We are all getting older, I have a new important relationship in my life (I came out and fell in love as you may know..), and so it seems I have less time and energy to devote to gardening. And if anything, a now much larger site seems to demand more of everything (not the least of which is money...). I love gardens that have a sense of intimacy and overflowing abundance, which is what I came up with after 20 years of gardening at the old place, without ever trying to do that specifically. Learning how to create a sense of intimacy on a large site is a challenge. We'll see how it works out.

My heart goes out to you about your personal circumstances. I have 3 kids in college, but am solid in my work, and moved by choice, even though I have regretted it at times. To have to leave a garden and home, not by choice but necessity, would be heartbreak -- it was hard enough even when I was making a deliberate choice. Here's hoping that something might come up that would help you not have to make that choice.

One thing that I sometimes take heart from is that the parts of my old garden which I enjoyed the most, the blue border above, for example, were really small spaces. The whole was 2/3 acre, yes, but that area shown around Betty Corning above was barely 15' long by 10' deep. Crammed to the gills, to be sure. Part of a larger whole, yes. But it gave me enjoyment through the whole garden season. I really do think I could be happy gardening in a fairly small area, maybe less than 1/4 acre, if the area were enclosed or had some 'borrowed landscape', or a combination thereof. Of course, for woody plant lovers like you and me and everybody else here, that means culling down to a few select plants, and enjoying the others in arboreta, parks, and other people's gardens.

To get back to this thread topic, I think that is actually one of the important reasons to use clematis in the garden, and to combine them with woody plants. Clematis take up relatively little "floor space" in a garden. They give you multiseason interest, make the most of the few woodies space will allow, add a sense of verticality and connection from the ground to the canopy, and help envelope the garden visitor with that sense of intimacy. So that even a small garden can transport you to a different world.

That David is so easy to manipulate--just post a question involving his favorite plants(that you know he will have pictures of), do it in the winter season, and watch him go!

This is exactly what I was hoping for with this thread. Thanks to David and everyone else. Lots of ideas for spring now.

ROTFLOL Kevin!!!! I guess you have to be able to laugh at yourself. Yes, I am nothing if not predictable --- though I have learned a thing or 2 about myself and the world and gardens the past few years that have changed my perspectives on things. I will probably surprise you as I have myself.

Though I doubt I will ever have much affection for dried up, floppy miscanthus....

This message was edited Dec 28, 2006 3:21 PM

This message was edited Dec 28, 2006 3:22 PM

Just kiddin' David(well, sorta). I knew you had some awesome Clematis in your old garden--I was hoping you would share some tips! I am glad you did.

Question regarding this statement which I want to back up to, "That Euphorbia is E. characias ssp wulfennii." What did you do with the Euphorbia during the other months of the year when it could not be left out?

Where did you buy your 'Mrs Robert Brydon' please?

Decumbent, hard to put into words what I am feeling for you other than numbness given the collection you will be leaving behind and the hours of boxing to come that drives the reality home that one is really leaving. I look forward to many photos of the haven you will most assuredly create at your new home.

I have been lucky enough at both my new and old places to have a cold greenhouse or sunporch on which I kept some potted plants, the euphorbias being among them. I really like those plants for their foliage and bloom, but unfortunately they do not tolerate snow load or cold (about z7 hardy I think).

I can't recall exactly where I got Mrs. Robt Brydon originally, but I think it was from a local grower who each year offered some unusual plants including some more unusual small flowered clems. It is actually quite hard to find even from the standard bear clematis nurseries that carry almost everything else under the sun. I would try all of the above -- Chalk Hill, Joy Creek, and Brushwood, and also look as well under the name C. x jouiana praecox, which is either the same or a very similar plant.

Maybe one last picture of two winners, both of which could be grown just fine in small to medium shrubs, Ville De Lyon (cerise pink-red) and Arabella (blue lavendar below), both of which are very long bloomers and vigorous plants

(....just like Kevin said, "bait him, get him started and make sure it's winter so there's nothing else to do, and there's no stopping him...." ;o))

Beautiful David. You have got me thinking clematis, that's for sure! I bet it was the salvia (tall, dark purple) in the picture.

Thanks for the kind thoughts everyone, but I sure didn't mean to hijack the thread! Sorry.

That Ville de Lyon is incredible. Such color.

Scott

Hijacking happens. Hijacking is healthy.

I added this thread to my list of "Instructional Threads" in my garden journal yesterday sometime I think. Far too chalk full of good information to let it slide away into oblivion some day when I'd be sitting here at the computer scratching my head and wondering who started that clematis thread and where did it go to???

I'm ordering three Euphorbia m. hyb. 'White Shade' for delivery some time the end of April. I intentionally ordered three to be able to experiment with them a little in different locations on the property and it had been my intent to keep them potted. I had good luck sinking a pot of Alocasia amazonica 'Polly' into a hole I dug in the ground that was the exact size of the pot this year and wanted to expand my horizons a little bit with other species not hardy to my zone. My thoughts had been to overwinter the Euphorbia in my garage amongst pots of overwintering Sarracenia. Keeping them damp, not moist. Lots of light in my garage from sets of very large windows and the temps are never allowed to go lower than around 38° but mostly they seem to hover around 40° during the day even when temps outside are in the teens for a few weeks in a row. We have auxilliary heaters out there that are controlled by thermostats back from when we used to work on wood working projects with scout groups out there. I would think they should overwinter fine in this type of a garage? What do you think?

I think that garage setup should do just fine for overwintering those euphorbs. I would not keep the soil too moist. They do not need much moisture especially in circumstances where there is virtually no transpiration water loss. They tolerate being dried out even in the summer without batting an eye. I doubt they would need watering more than a light watering about once a month. Much better to under- rather than over-water. I keep some potted plants over in my garage too which is about 40 degrees.

BTW, where are you getting 'White Shade' from? I have not seen that plant but it is listed and pictures in the FG article on euphorbs this month. I like them and wish I had another zone or 2 of hardiness to grow more. The larger euphorbs add a textural/color note to the garden that is hard to get from other plants. Worth going to see Beth Chatto's dry garden in England sometime for the huge shrubby E. charcias there that bloom in March and April. Oh there's that zone envy thing again.......

Scott, I am sure nobody here felt you were hijacking the thread either. Best of luck to you. Keep us posted -- on ANY thread.

David

Buried Treasures has the 'White Shade'.
http://davesgarden.com/gwd/c/2462/

Can someone tell me how to add a thread to my "instructional threads" journal? I would like to do that for a few of the viburnum threads before they disappear and I don't have a clue how. Does that save the thread indefinitely from disappearing into a cyber-graveyard? Thanks, DB

Underneath the last post you can click 'Watch Thread', or maybe cut and paste the address into a file somewhere

David, it's best to copy them to a word doc. Just copy and paste them into one, click save as, save it where you'd like it, and it's done. If, by chance, any more posts are added into the thread, you can easily just copy and paste that over into the word doc you already have, just remember to save the changes.

Up at the very top of this page is a tab that says "Journals". Left click on that.

From there you will have four choices,

Diaries:

Manage your own garden diary
View other garden diaries

Journals:

Manage your own journal
View other journals

Left click on "Manage your own garden diary".

Now that you are in the proper area, look over to the right to an area called "Tasks". In order to start, you will need to click where it says "add a new tab". New screen will display with an area for you to type the words, "Instructional Threads" or any other words you wish. Now click finished. You will now be allowed to return to your diary homepage. Click on that and you're at a page that tells you that you have x # of entries in your diary, but this tab is empty. Scroll down a little bit to an area on the right hand side just beneath the are for "Tasks" to an area titled "Your diaries" and look for your new entry. Click on it. Now you want to go to the "Tasks" box and look for "Add a new entry". Click on that and go from there. Please know that you have the choice of checking a box at some point in time when adding entries that enables you to "make this entry private". I chose to do this for a carnivorous plant grow list of several hundred species as I didn't want to field requests from anyone asking for cuttings from my parent plants, or for me to collect seed for them, or to trade, or to buy plants from me. I'm not a nursery and I don't make it a practice of trading in favor of giving away extras but that's just me. Personal choice but please know if you are posting any type of grow lists that may contain rare, threatened or endangered, or very expensive plants that you might want to consider checking that box to make your entry private to avoid repeated requests from people trying to track down that ever so elusive plant they've been dieing to try growing for over a decade.

You can save entire threads to your desktop or to another area of your harddrive but I personally prefer the diary better. Keeps everything in one place and it's easily accessible.

It's very easy to create tabs as well as entries in your journal. Try a test tab with a test entry and then delete it when you feel confident.

Thanks Equilibrium. I am going to print your instructions out and try them when I have a little time (not while I am at work surfing a little between work cases.....). Am I correct in understanding that once you save a thread like this by the method you describe, it will be there indefinitely? Or would it disappear once the thread disappears from the boards? For me that would be a very, very useful way of saving information. I do a lot of my garden surfing at work when I have a little time here and there, and the computers I use there are not my own, so it would be much easier to save it in this way than trying to save it to my own hard drive. Thanks again for the help. DB

I sneak in for peeks between case files from work too particularly when ordering plants in the spring and it would be incredibly frustrating having my lust list on the harddrive at home when I'm raring to place an order with credit card in hand at work.

Anything you save like that should be there indefinitely or at least as long as the current owners own the site... I don't think the people who own this site have any intentions of selling out on us or they wouldn't keep improving and enhancing it. Threads just don't up and disappear all that frequently and the few that do disappear indefinitely aren't the types you'd want to save anyway. There apper to be safeguards for "disappearing content" employed by the Admins. Interestingly enough, one of the threads in my garden diary under my tab for instructional threads had all of the substantive posts removed from it by the person who had posted them. Those posts were the reason why I had saved that particular thread. I was really bummed when I realized all the juicy tid bits were gone because I hadn't saved any of the information to my hard drive and was just about ready to delete the entry in my garden diary when the entire thread magically reappeared. My bet is that saving threads right on the server here is much safer than saving them on your hard drive at home. And when their usefullness to you wanes, you can delete them.

Now, terryr's way has its place too particularly if you want to work off line or edit out content that is not of interest to you before you print. I just don't have a need to print any of my journal entries when they're available right on line and additionally I don't work off line at home and like being afforded the luxury of having my diary entries available to me from any computer.

You could ask dave himself, but it looks like threads/posts here never die. Click on the 72nd page of the Trees and Shrubs forum, and you find posts dating to 2001 when DG was established.

Some day that may change, I guess, but it seems like once you write it, it's here for good.

Why wouldn't simply bookmarking this page in your browser work?? If the thread is saved, the unique number that follows the '/forums/' in the url should remain as well. You can organize your bookmarks any way you want.

Bookmarking in the browser definitely works. That's how I used to find threads that I didn't want to lose but I've got over 10 threads that I'd be bookmarking and you can't create lists and such in a browser bookmark.

There's been a number of threads that I don't want to lose the valuable information in, so that's why I save them to a word doc. Did it at GW and just continue to do it here. I didn't know the other even existed.

You can easily set up folders when you 'Manage Bookmarks'. No limit to how you can categorize it with subfolders, headings, etc. You can name them anything you want - under an 'Informative' folder, for example, you can have 'DG Clematis Thread'. My 'Gardening' folder has many sub-categories which go down to sources for particular plants. Very easy for me. Takes seconds to get what I want.

I have a question about clematis. I have one that keeps getting wilt. I moved it from my old house and replanted it. It came up and was about ready to bloom and then died down with wilt. It did the same thing the next year. Should I shovel prune it or is there something I can pour over it to get rid of wilt?

Also, what do you feed your clematis with? When do you feed it? How often do you feed it?

I grow very few large flowered clems and so problems with wilt in my plants are virtually non-existent (since small flowered clems do not generally get wilt). Some people have limited success using fungicides, usually the plants eventually grow out of it from what I hear. But if I were you, given what you describe, I would can that clematis and plant one of the hundreds of varieties that are almost carefree and are not bothered by wilt at all.

As far as fertilizing, I have used a variety of things. In years when I "go organic" with roses and clematis, I will use a mixture of alfalfa pellets/meal, old horse or cow manure if I have it, cottonseed meal, greensand, rock phosphate, bone meal maybe. In some other years I have not had time for those concoctions and use Osmocote or Flowertone. And I have even just used a tomato fertilizer, 5-10-10 or something similar, especially if the plants act like they need a little boost later in the season. The problem in my old garden was that the soil was usually completely covered with plant growth and so there was little chance after June 1 to give much of anything except in a liquid form..

Any of the above will work just fine, especially in clay based soils (which clems seem to like), and especially if the plants are getting lots of water, which is what they really want in abundance.

Thank you David.

Anyone looking for 'Mrs. Robert Brydon'- LazyS's Farm carries it.

Thanks Chamthy. I might look for a couple myself (I have the little remnant of a plant that I moved, that got overgrown with weeds, got sprayed with Roundup, and STILL survived. Those clematis are tough....)

By the way, I have never ordered from Lazy S but the reviews on Watchdog seem pretty good. Has anybody actually gotten clematis from them? Quart size is pretty small (that's the listed size for Mrs RB) so the plants might need to be grown in a pot for a summer before being planted out.

Their description also shows the problem with just using nursery descriptions to judge mature size of clematis. I think this is more true of clematis than any other group of plants. Lazy S describes Mrs RB as a bush/shrub clematis with an approximate size of 3' x 3', and as a selection of C. heraclifolia. Though it does have parentage of that species, the plant produces very long stems, and in my garden covered a 20' circle and clambered up all kinds of plants. So take what the nursery says with a grain of salt. There will often be considerable differences in how the plant grows for you (mainly depending on soil and water) than what the nursery lists.

Other information sources (like Clematis on the web, below) may be a better source of info about size and culture. And there is no substitute for finding out yourself.

http://www.clematis.hull.ac.uk/

Late joining the clematis-shrub party, but I have a few I can share.

Here's Comtesse de Bouchaud on a flowering almond

Etoile Violette on a forsythia

Piilu on Blue Muffin

Purpurea Plena Elegans on cornus Ivory Halo. This one was tricky when I cut down the Ivory Halo last year for a rejuvenation pruning. PPE was way ahead of Ivory Halo. Should be better matched this year.

This message was edited Jan 4, 2007 9:24 PM

This one shows that it doesn't always work out so great. This is Lady Betty Balfour on Magnolia Leonard Messel if you look real hard! The first year of the combo, it looked very hopeful. LBB blooms late so it was nice to have an Aug/Sept color on the Magnolia. But the second year, this is all I got. I think the Magnolia is too powerful for the poor clematis. Perl d'azure was planted around there somewhere too, but I don't think I saw it last year. Maybe some extra food and water will help.

How great!! Thanks for the wonderful pics. Piilu is one of my favorites, mine is growing in the new place on an obelisk but it consorts there with adjacent shrubs and perennials. Lady Betty Balfour was good for me for a couple of years but was one of the very few clematis in my garden that got wilt, so I eventually canned her. Yes, pairing a new clematis with an established tree can also be tricky -- may need not only extra food but lots of water and even some selective pruning of the tree or tieback to give the clematis enough light. I think it is easier when both of the plants are fairly newly planted and can grow up together.

A little like children, from my experience.

Amazingly, that Lady Betty Balfour and the magnolia were planted the same year. The magnolia was good sized to start but really took off. Maybe I'll try something tougher there like jackmanii or polish spirit.

Forgot which one this is in my Itea.