Ginkgo 'Spring Grove'

Not the best close up, but both sides are perfectly matched up and the graft union has calloused:

One more of the same graft:

These close ups are very good, this is a single bud graft from some remaining wood after I grafted the larger pieces. I'll show you both sides of the graft union and how the scion (cutting from Kevin's plant) is healed on both sides (where the cut into the understock seedling) is and where the scion was inserted into this cut into the seedling:

Dax

The other side:

Later on.. (I of course had to replace the bud strip and it will be left on till next year at which such a time if the bud pushes on the scion and after 'decent' growth occurs, then the understock will be pruned off just above the scion. Conifer grafts are different where next year, the understock will be left on for a year (although conifer grafters too depending upon the persons' philosophy) 'some' will remove the understock after the conifer graft pushes 'decent' growth. Everybody has their own philosophy in other words...... but I agree with Bob Fincham that for conifers, the understock will feed the scion better and will be removed the following spring after one full year or year and 1/2. Removing the conifer understock it's first spring after winter grafting, does not mean the graft will die.

Take care.

Bravo, Dax!! Well done! I need to try doing this some day. I'm just too chicken to try. I guess I should work with some stock and scion material I could care less about?

Please put my name on one of those. I will find something to use for a trade next spring...
Thanks,
Mike

You got it man.

I'm going to send you a Dmail right now too Mike.

Thank you! It's very easy.

Dax

Rock on Rock Island! Excellent photos!

Count me in the same class as treelover3 in that I am too chicken to try this myself.

Kneevin, did you ever find any other ginkgo trees nearby? Maybe upwind of the liquor store. And may I recommend a nice Petite Sirah from the Baja region :)

Nice grafts Dax. The bunnies and squirrels are winning 2-0 against my grafted Ginkgos from Rich's.

Bill

Hi Bill, thanks. Easy peasy.

Those bunnies actually eat spruce needles in winter. Norway spruce. Live and learn, I sure did.

I'll make sure they don't eat these Ginkgos though. I suppose I'd eat what I could too just to survive. Can't really blame them..

Dax

How can I get one??? I showed your pics Dax to my group of Ginkgos and they would love to adopt one. Lemme know if there are any left.....


Todd

If a bunny eats ginkgo, does it have better memory? What would happen if a bunny ate ginseng root?

Bill

Sweet Bill, sweet.........

Dax: Could you indicate on one of your photos exactly where you detach the understock? I am very impressed. I am going to do it as soon as I get the wherewithall together. Also, me and my bunny, Henry, who is a New Zealand, would love a tree, if you are taking a list. I don't think Henry eats Ginkgo, but he likes to chew on pear or pecan twigs.

You bet Gloria, I'd be happy to elaborate a little further.

Grafting can be done anywhere on the seedling/understock but what you need to know is that the wood on the understock as well as the scion needs to be mature(hardwood) no matter where you decide to do the carpentry. You've probably seen as an example a dwarf blue spruce "ball" on top of a "stick" as people will frequently say...and this graft is called a 'standard'. Inversely, the scion/"cutting" could be attached anywhere below this standard graft as well, because the wood below (again still talking about the seedling understock just so you're following) would still be "hardwood" as well. That's the fun thing about grafting. I'll tell you some more of the reasons why and where a scion is attached.

Take for example a tree with a weeping habit such as Picea glauca 'Pendula' - a very common tree in the nursery trade... Since this tree does grow upright, by grafting a piece of scionwood higher instead of at the bottom of the seedling understock will give you a few years head start because the trees natural growth is to have branches that weep/cascade as well as a central leader that grows upright. In other words, the seedling understock "stem/trunk" will eventually not be visible so again to reitterate, you've grafted this particular plant, with these 'particular characteristics' higher than normal to give it a head start. The very same explanation could be assimulated to the deciduous tree: Fagus sylvatica 'Purple Fountain' (A weeping Beech that grows very similarly to the weeping Spruce I just used as an example). Of course, your seedling that you'll use to graft the scions onto, needs to be older or more mature so that you can graft on this taller seedling. Make sense??? If not, I'll try again until you understand.

Grafting other forms like this Ginkgo that have an upright form, are usually grafted lower on the understock for the reason that most grafting is done with small pieces of scionwood as well as not so large understocks.

Another thing that needs to be addressed is this... Ginkgo to Gingko well that's a no brainer in terms of 'what kind of seedling should I use to graft a particular scion'?

Well, for many grafters, and when grafting Oaks, Piceas (Spruce), Pines, etc is this. Many species are compatible among each other therefore you don't need to have on hand the same species to graft species within a Genus. (Genus is Picea or Fagus or whatever).

And because you might graft a Colorado Spruce to a different species of Spruce (All Spruce are compatible by the way... so all 'Spruce' can be grafted to any other Spruce) to say some seedlings you've grown of Oriental Spruce (Picea orientalis) - In this case, you don't want to graft an upright form such as "Colorado Blue Spruce"'cultivar' 'Hoopsii' up high on a seedling understock because the bark will have the traits of your seedling's bark below and at the "graft union" (where you've done the carpentry) - the bark from that point on up, will have the bark of the Blue Spruce. This is an example of a poorly done graft. The tree may live a few hundred years, but you will always see two different kinds of bark which is ugly.

So there's always the grafters choice as to where to attach the scion and depending on what you're doing, that's where 'you the grafter' have to use common sense as to where to attach that scion or scions. In these "topiary"/standard grafts - it is very common for a grafter to attach two pieces of scionwood for example for two reason: Number one being, if one scion dies/doesn't take, hopefully the second did or number two, he or she is hoping both scions take (the grafts were both a success) and by having to scions, the plant will take on the desired shape much faster. So this example can similarily be compared to why a person would graft an upright weeper, 'high' on the seedling understock.........Again to reitterate, (you're) saving time to get the established plant you desire.

99% of what you will graft for the most part however will be grafted low on the understock like I've shown on that single bud graft. 'Miniature' conifers, for example though, you'll want to graft up a little higher so they look like something as these group of plants have growth rates that are 1" or less per year. And if you were to graft them very low, you'd be looking at a tiny ball (or whatever shape they may take on) a ground level and thats not good for aestetics nor is it good to have the foliage at ground level to start with. So again, common sense in this case is not so much common sense but it is experience that tells a person where 'the kind of plant material you are working with should be grafted' on that seedling.

For the Ginkgo's I grafted, I simply put four pots in a white plastic garbage bag and threw in a few damp wadded up paper towels to increase humidity and I sealed the bags shut with twist ties. You can either do what I did which was to leave them in the garage under fluorescent lighting above which I added shade cloth, or you can bag them and simply exercise the same process buy keep them under a nice big shade tree. Either way you'll get the same results.

Good luck you amateur grafters and let me drill this into your heads again - Bob Fincham's grafting video which is 30 bucks or thereabouts - is worth every penny. It's the only grafting tape I know of, and it can be purchased at this link. Everyone needs to watch this before they do anything. I did...
http://www.coenosium.com/text1298/videos.htm

Dax

I should mention that Pines are another whole ballgame. And here's a link again to Coesnosium Gardens - to explain at least the conifers. Otherwise, is you aren't ever sure if something is compatible - ask!!!!
I also graft Japanese Maples as seen above and these are all compatible to the common understock:

Acer palmatum -
(all these can be grafted to palmatum)
A. circinatum
A. japonicum
A. shirasawanum
A. sieboldianum
A. pseudosieboldianum
(These I know for sure)
Then probably there are other "Asian Species" I just don't know about that would successfully graft - but remember again that the bark will be different among these species so when two seperate species are involved, graft them low so the union isn't recognizable.

This could go on forever. Heck, anything woody (Clematis, Hibiscus syriacus, Lavender - "whatever" if you have hardwood, it can be grafted.)

Now here's that link (and really you should check out his entire website - it's one of the best around):
http://www.coenosium.com/Musings/understk-scion.htm

Another link from Bob's website (Photos: step by step on how to graft):
http://www.coenosium.com/text399/spring,1.htm

And check out my internet friends website - this guy is cool as all heck! He's a grafter and hunter of witches' brooms - Jan @ wbgarden:
http://wbgarden.com/nove/galen/Top/default.htm

Dax

Check out these photos - Talk about gardens! Whew!!
http://www.britishconifersociety.org.uk/bcs/modules.php?op=modload&name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=2

And of course The American Conifer Society:
http://www.conifersociety.org/cs/index.php

Going to take a rest! Hope you enjoyed the photos, I'm sure you did! Some incredible imagination...

Dax

The video is "Grafting Methods for Propagating Ornamentals" by Bob Fincham

The cost is cheap for all that you get at only $30 plus $5 for shipping and handling.

They aren't in a position to accept credit cards so mail a check payable to Coenosium Gardens
to this address-
4412 354th Street East
Eatonville WA 98328

You will get your video in about two weeks.

The American Conifer Society has an excellent data base of images. I go there to dream. I also used that site to select plants I wanted. There are photos at that site illustrating how conifers can be integrated into a landscape. It gives you ideas. Click on the Photo Gallery Link at the top of the page.

Dax - Whew! I'm dizzy trying to keep up with that whirlwind of information. So if you want a weeping tree, say Blue Atlas Cedar, the graft is done with the upright portion on the bottom to make the weeping part flow down? Did I get that right?

I am so disappointed that I didn't take Propagation this semester, it was only offered as a night class, which I can't do. Well now I know who to ask if I get stuck when I do take it. You enthusiasm is contagious!

(I don't have room for more large trees here, so dwarf conifers would be the way to go.)

Thanks for the links. Adrian Bloom is an inspiration, I wish I could afford to buy one of his books, I could get lost in there for days! I love how he combines grasses with evergreens and deciduous shrubs.

Here's a link I found explaining the term "witches broom" in case someone doesn't know, why not share the fun?

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/newsrel/2003/oct03/oct0312.html

That's ok. Just read it slowly.

Prairie - youie asked a question that's both ambiguous in several ways and something I didn't cover. There are upright weeping forms of Cedrus libani and there are forms that need to be staked. (All grafts as youngsters need to be staked if they grow upright on their own.) At some point these "upright weeping growers" with central leaders will not need staking and you'll know when the leader becomes dominant without any staking.

Both however (the forms with upright leaders that need no support/staking) can be grafted anywhere even though you will be using Cedrus deodara as understock because eventually both forms will cover the differing bark. To graft them low, would simply take them longer to achieve height. Or, if you want to graft something as a natural groundcover, well then you would graft it low or wherever you wish it to begin it's life as that groundcover.

Thanks for your question,

Dax

Dax: Thanks for elaborating. My mom used to graft stuff (roses, apples) together when I was a kid. I thought she was just making 'freaks'. I should have paid more attention. Thanks so much for the seminar in grafting and for the links. I think I have all of Alan Bloom's books, guess its time to catch up with the new generation.

I visited the Gingko the county cut down this morning. Looks like its been doused with herbicide. The tops of the shoots that grew this summer have been whacked off and were lying on the ground. I was able to get several shoots off the base of the tree from the back where there may have been less herbicide. I guess it could have just been the heat. I guess I'll try to do them as hardwood cuttings.

PrairieGirl's got Dmail. PrairieGirl's got Dmail.

Bill

Thanks again Bill! :D

Oh oh oh! PG's link has photos taken by Chub Harper! I know that name now! I'm happenin!

I know what I want to try grafting! I want to graft from my 'Uncle Fogy'! I think I want to graft it onto P. strobus, right?

Just out of curiosity, was 'Uncle Fogy' originally a witches broom of P. banksiana?

Ok, I'll bite, what is Chub Harper's claim to fame? I'm obviously NOT happenin' ROFLMAO.

Uncle Fogy is a witches broom! That I did know, just by chance, it was the example in a class lecture.

I haven't a clue but I know he's somebody important in the world of conifers. Am I still happenin? Does recognizing a famous name count?

I'm not sure that P. banksiana 'Uncle Fogy' is from a witch's broom? The original plant was found in a yard in Richfield, MN., which is a first-ring suburb immediately south of Minneapolis. I don't know if the original plant still exists? I will call the MN Landscape Arboretum to see if anyone knows where the original plant was located. 'Uncle Fogy' is a semi-pendulous form of Jack pine. I think the plant was a chance seedling rather than a witch's broom, and was planted in the yard by a local landscaping company.

'Uncle Fogy' is NOT a dwarf and can get big - there is one at the arboretum that is at least 15' across.
Mike

I'm still think it's a witches broom, it's only 2 feet tall. I've been wrong before....

Sure wish I could find some kewl chance seedling in my yard!

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/plantfinder/Plant.asp?code=L730

My 'Uncle Fogy' is big. Mine is already at 7' tall and drooping marvelously. Gosh, I love that plant!

Yours is "top-grafted to a standard jack pine" to create a weeping tree, per the above link. It must be beautiful! Well, the link does call it a "cultivar". Does anyone know if that makes a difference? Clarification necessary.

I think the Kemper site might have some misinformation??? I've never heard of 'Uncle Fogy' being available as a "a prostrate groundcover which typically grows to 2' tall, but spreads to 12-15' wide in 10 years" or I would have bought two. Their site does indicate this cultivar is available as a "a weeping tree top-grafted to a standard jack pine" although I am relatively confident mine was grafted to Pinus strobus but I could be wrong.

Here's what I know, if this comes in a prostrate groundcover form, I want two. Gimme gimme gimme!

That's just it, I distinctly remember this being discussed in my Woody Ornamentals class, I just don't remember the conclusion. LOL Foxwillow Pines' photos, where I believe you said you bought the plant, has pictures on their website of both the upright and groundcover forms. It's not prostrate. Off to do more research...

Correction: The "upright" was something else. I think it's natural form is a groundcover, but it can be grafted, as yours is, to something upright (now here's where I think Dax should chime in) to make it "weep".

This message was edited Oct 2, 2006 10:59 AM

One of the plants of 'Uncle Fogy', at the MN. Landscape Arboretum, is approx. 5' tall by 15' wide (maybe even 20' wide). To get 'Uncle Fogy' to appear as a "weeping" tree, the plant would need to be grafted quite high since this plant does not add much height on its own.

I'm not sure I would consider this plant a "ground cover" conifer, either, since the plant does get to be 5' to 6' tall as it ages. If a ground cover conifer is needed, I think I would go with one of the Juniperus horizontalis cultivars instead.

I have lusted after this plant for a long time, but since my yard isn't very large, I have had to enjoy the specimens at the Arboretum, instead. This plant would take up way too much real estate in my yard. Bummer!

'Uncle Fogy' is as hardy as a rock, in the landscape.
Mike

So you both think the Kemper Center site is wrong? Interesting, as many other sites say it is taller too.

Plus, when I google Pinus banksiana 'Uncle Fogy' I get sites referring to it as both a cultivar and a clone, not sure of the distinction?

I think there is some confusion on the term groundcover, in landscaping is not a synonym for prostrate (flattened), rather it means something used to cover the ground plane, which Uncle Fogy does.

I wonder if it's like Pinus mugo, with a wide variety of differences all going by the same name? That seems to be sorting itself out, maybe this will too.

Pinus banksiana 'Girard's Weeper' - this plant has upright growth plus weeps. Oddly enough, The ACS Database lists it as a groundcover but I remember being all up and inside it and seeing that it was growing upright on it's own. Another plant I like very much.


All this Uncle Fogy discussion has been cleared up. The plant needs staking to achieve height taller than it would normally ramble if not staked. It is a groundcover if not staked. Uncle Fogy can be grafted to Pinus strobus (any banksiana and vice versa).

Dax

'Girard's Weeper' - The Harper Collection of Dwarf & Rare Conifers - Tipton Michigan.

Often sites will refer to a plant at a certain age i.e. 10 years, 15 years, etc. This is often the case when dimensions are given on plant tags, in nurseries. The size on the tag isn't the ultimate height and width of the plant; it's just the height and width of the plant at a particular age. I would guess that this is what has happened on the Kemper site (even though the site doesn't tell you this information and plant tags don't often give you this info, either).

A cultivar and clone are really the same thing and are synonymous with each other. In both cases, the plant being offered for sale is identical to the original plant that was discovered. To be a clone or a cultivar, the plant needs to be propagated via rooted cuttings or grafting (and sometimes via micro-propagation AKA tissue culture, but tissue culture is not often used for propagating woody plants). This will ensure that the plant you receive will be identical to the original. This is a VERY loose and broad generalization because depending on where the scion (cultivar/clone) material of the plant is taken from the original plant, that will determine how the resulting (propagated) plant will develop.

You're correct about the term "ground cover"; it all depends on how you want the ground covered. (:o)
Mike

Here's another plant that as PrairieGirl suggests could like her Mugo example be constituted as a groundcover.

Pinus resinosa 'Don Smith'

First a younger plant, then the original at The US Nat. Arb in D.C.

Bickelhaupt Arboretum, Iowa (Oct. 2005).

Now the mother plant: I estimated it to be 25 feet across.

Dax

Over on GW - it is mentioned with frequency also that rootstock 'vigor' will determine why plants grow differently from one clone to another as a grafted plant of course. This can be as simple as varying vigor 'within a species' as well as overall vigor from one species to the next. That's another topic that needed some addressing. Pinus banksiana for example isn't as vigorous as Pinus strobus and for grafting dwarfs and miniatures 'as an example', banksiana is the better choice. Pinus strobus of course is fine to use however. Also, climate, and what trees 'perform' better than others in a particular climate should be considered when choosing rootstock for grafting. Finally in the Southern US or East Coast, where most all Firs perform poorly, growers have determined that the use of Abies firma 'as a rootstock' allows for other species (once again if you look at the Coenosium Link, you'll see that all Abies are compatible for grafting to each other) that have all but failed in all instances. Another topic is what rootstocks are better suited for a greenhouse environment....... Some are highly susceptible to mold whereas other species are certainly better choices. It all depends on where you live and of course the issue of which species can handle the high humidity a greenhouse offers...

I can thank Resin for pointing out the best choices for each group or Genus for my climate and I will again!

Thanks Resin! lol (no seriously)

Dax

PGZ5:

Have you had your horticultural guest lecturer in SEMANTICS yet?

I'm available.

Sorry, that's the EHSP overwhelming my normally congenial and nurturing tone. Dax and Mike have pretty much summed up the answers to your conundrums. Also -- see the front few pages of Dirr for very clear definitions of terms relating to naming plants.