Replacement tree?

Hi all,

I am looking for a tree to replace a basswood that died on me. I would like a summer blooming tree or large shrub - July & August here in zone 6B Stony Point, NY. I don't want to use crape myrtle, hydrangea, or clethra - I have way too many of them! It is a full sun location with good drainage, as it is on a slope. It will be located about 15 feet from my pool and I don't want it blocking the direct sun so I would like it to top out at no more than about 20 feet. In addition, I don't want any messy debris from it during the pool months (Memorial Day to Labor Day). The basswood was a nightmare in this regard. I had considered simply getting a tree that was on my wish list, like Fringe Tree, but decided to stick with something I can fully appreciate in bloom while I am in the pool. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, as always. Thanks much.

Regards,
Victor

You might think twice about the summer-blooming part. Most blooming trees shed flower parts after blooming, and they are bound to blow over into your pool.

If you can live with that, you might consider something like Rhus copallina or another arborescent sumac. Our male R.c. is in peak bloom right now with large, impressive flower clusters, and at least the flower parts they shed are small and unobtrusive. Plus you'll get some nice fall color at the end of swimming season if you can stay out there when the water starts cooling off! Or think about something like Cotinus with nice summer fruit displays that aren't very messy.

One other worry about summer blooming around your pool will be insect attraction. But hey, what's a little bee sting or two among pool friends!

Guy S.

Thanks Guy. The spent flowers should not pose a problem, so long as the tree / shrub is not too big. There are other shrubs between it and the pool fence, as well as a 'second line of defense' - more shrubs inside the pool area. That fact also addresses your bee concern - I already have plenty of them! I leave them alone - they leave us alone. Plenty of buddleia in the areas as well so I don't want another one of them. I guess my choices are limited. I will check into the sumac. Thanks again.

Victor

I like the sumac idea and the tiger eye is rather spectacular, Also a Styrax Japonica It lets you see flower displays under the foilage so from the pool it would be beautiful. Also all the flowers and leaves drop in less than a week. The only thing is they can in 20 or so years get over 20'. This is a Tiger eye.

Thanks, Sofer. Tiger Eye is small much smaller though, isn't it - 6 - 8 feet? I tried one this year and it failed, but I was willing to try again. However, I was thinking something at least in the 12 or so foot range to replace the tree. Thanks again.

Victor

In that size range, some sumac choices are:
Rhus copallina (native, barely 12'),
R. typhina (native, up to 25' for the species, much less for the laceleaf cultivars - species name revised recently but I forget the new one at the moment),
R. potanini (Chinese, maybe 25'),
R. chinensis (also Chinese and about 25').
Also check out some of the Cotinus cultivars.

Guy S.

Syringa pekinensis grows to about the dimensions you're looking for. It stays smaller than Japanese Tree Lilac, but flowers at about the same time. Around here that would be late June or early July. We've had unusually warm April's the past couple of years and my JTL flowered during mid June. I don't think it's as cold hardy as the JTL, but for you that would be moot. One nice feature of Pekin Lilac that Japanese Tree Lilac doesn't have is peeling bark. This would provide you with more seasonal interest than just flowers.

http://www.ume.maine.edu/lelgardn/rchives/tomarch/sprJn.htm

I have some of the smooth sumac over 10' and they are only 10 yrs old. Rhus Glabra see this http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/62278/index.html My Tiger eyes are almost 5' and only 2 years old. Guy is hinting at the Cotinus Coggygria http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/1043/index.html This is another one that I like cause of the bright arching form of chartreuse. Elderberry. Sambucus Racemosa http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/76829/index.html

Some good ideas - thanks! I should probably expand my criteria to include very interesting foliage, etc. I guess I should re-state it to simply say that I want something that is beautiful to look at in July & August. That would greatly increase the field of candidates.

Victor

Victorgardener:

Pshaw. Sumac? Cotinus? Elderberry? Tree lilac or snowbell I might lean toward, but you are in the Hudson River valley. Don't listen to these drought-stricken fried-minded fellows from way out west.

I would think (without knowing what plants are on your wish list, what other small trees you already have, what the planting site looks like, and how long you will actually care about the ultimate height this plant reaches) that a small tree within view of your pool is Prime Time.

This is a location for a plant which will stun your guests, stump your plant geek friends, and that if it so much as droops for two seconds (much less up and die) you will go jump off the Palisades because it is the center of your universe.

In a word, a finely grown Franklinia alatamaha.

OK, I'll list a few more, but I have to believe you already have copious numbers of these commoners:

Stewartia spp.
Magnolia sieboldii
Aesculus parviflora, trained as a small tree
Rhododendron prunifolium
Oxydendrum arboreum
Clethra acuminata
Clethra barbinervis
Vitex agnus-castus

If you really want a colonizer, try one of these from off the beaten garden path:

Aralia spinosa

Grows very well in about any soils, makes more of itself with abandon, big old white flower clusters attractive to all manner of insects blooming now here in central KY, and followed by copious purplish fruit relished by the birds next month.

Yes, some of these may reach the 20' cap in 20-25 years, but by then you won't care whether they reach 100' because they will be your raison d'être.

All:

Notice I didn't even perpetuate my pseudonymous passion.

Mucho thanks, VV. Actually Franklinia is on my wish list and I forgot about it. Will seriously consider that one. I do indeed have most of the others on your list, except for the Vitex (very nice but too close in appearance to Buddleia, which I have in abundance in the area) and Oxydendrum, which is also on my wish list.

I hope to snap some photos of the area (and the dead Basswood) and post them. Thanks to all. You guys are great.

Victor

Ahh the only gardens that will survive this global warming will be here in the "drought striken fried mind west". Get ready NY state.

Sofer:

Victorgardener will have beachfront property, and you'll be getting a taste of the lovely humidity of the Ohio River valley. I'll probably be able to grow LOL's live oaks.

Oh your right I forgot about the beach front. My mind is focused on Montana turning into Zone 8 when Seattle is under water. I forget about the "least" coast.

I always complain that I am about 2 miles from the Hudson. Will be nice to be closer!

My favorite is Sargent's "Crab" (Malus sargentii). It has small red berries (not crabapples). They remain on the tree/bush until winter when the cardinals run out of better foods.

VV, I see on the website of one of my favorite sources that Franklinia is kind of demanding - requiring constantly moist soil. Is that your experience? Any other tips /comments? I see Forestfarm has it in the five gallon size. That's nice since I don't want to wait forever to notice it. Here's a photo of the area.You just see the trunk of the dead Basswood. You might not see but between it and the pool fence is a fairly sized oakleaf hydrangea and a large (6 - 6.5') buddleia. Therefore, the new tree will barely be seen in the pool area until it is about six feet tall. I am 43 years old and would like to enjoy the new view before cataracts, glaucoma, macular degeneration, not to mention global warming, set in! Thanks again.

Victor

I'd challenge the website of one of your favorite sources: Put up or shut up.

And global warming, should it smite thee, will be your friend (insofar as growing Franklinia alatamaha.

I am gardening in Scott County, central KY, zone 5b (though some will say we've moved up to 7a since 1994, when we last had a -28F winter). We average (if you believe the NWS) 44" or so rainfall per annum. I am gardening in circumneutral heavy clay loam (Lowell B), which gets the 1-2" wide cracks when it gets into summer drought time (like today!).

I grow plants on 10 acres. It's not possible to handmaiden everything. My Franklinia got its first watering of the year this morning. I credit its good health and reasonable performance to observation. You keep an eye on things you haven't grown before, and add care as needed. I have far more mundane species around the property that I believe like it here a lot less (including doublefile viburnum, star magnolia, and forsythia), based on what they look like right now which is downright dogeared.

I would suggest a regular course of watering to get your new plant established (as one would expect with just about any new plant). Buying a plant that is container grown ensures that you have all the roots; beware an encircling root system hidden in the soil media. My plant is/was container grown at 1G (about 24", one side branch) when I acquired it in 2001. Now, 5 years of growing hence (including severe drought years in both 2001 and 2005), Mr. Franklin Tree is a robust 12' tall. It would be a bit broader/fatter if I didn't have such overzealous viburnums. What I DID do is till up the whole area where these woody plants were installed. This aids in root growth/extension, as well as moisture penetration. I will be attaching a picture to the end of this post.

For your site (well shot and explained, BTW), I'd recommend a simple circle of drip hose around your new acquisition. That way, you can hook up the hose to it and add water at a gentle rate specifically to the target plant without disturbing the rest of your creation.

To harp on one of your points: it appears that there is a bit of a grade change from the aspect of your photo position and the pool deck. Hence, if the new tree is planted at roughly the same elevation as the former basswood, you will have no trouble enjoying a view of it over the top of the Hydrangea quercifolia and the Buddleia davidii, unless you are sitting rather near the fence.

OK, you didn't ask me for design help. You shouldn't be overly concerned about growing Franklinia alatamaha, in my humble (!) opinion. There are far more finicky plants. I'd also search a little more for local sources of this fine small tree; I can't believe that there aren't nearer opportunities than shipping cross country.

Note from the picture that Franklinia alatamaha is perfectly capable of revealing its stress with an amazing array of fine fall foliage flavors. And JBs hang out just long enough to be an emerald asset.

It's backdrop is a collection of Viburnum dentatum clones; there's a Syringa reticulata 'Ivory Silk' to the right.

Here's a near view.

Thanks again, VV. You make a great case for Ben's tree. I certainly will look locally first. I do usually use soaker hoses and pay more attention to the newbies in general. Your specimen looks quite happy, crack inducing drought and all!

Victor

Franklinia? I say passe to your pshaw. In a gardening outpost like central Kentucky that might be an inspiring choice, but here in God's country its almost weed-like. I'm not sure which is more annoying, the Franklinia or that pesky Acer shirasawanum 'Aureum'. What else ya got?

Hey now you got me interested VV. I want a Franklina now. Someone says it grows in Buffalo NY. So maybe I can set that one here. Do you get rain throughout July- Aug off and on? Hey and VV does your Ivory silk bloom longer than 4 weeks? Mine was kind of short this year despite perfect conditions.

Victor, I'd second the recommendation for one of the Tree Lilacs. We have two S. reticulata 'Ivory Silk' in our gardens and guests always comment on them when in flower. While in Michigan this summer, we came across this stunning specimen in a small private community and tried to get a photo quickly as it was raining at the time.

The tree lilac is certainly beautiful and I am considering it for somewhere on my property. My concern for this area though is that the blooming will be pretty much done by early July, when the pool use starts. When does it bloom for you? Thank you.

Victor

Elliotia racemosa
Acer griseum
Viburnum sieboldii 'Wavecrest'
Taxodium distichum 'Peve Minaret'
Ginkgo 'Jade Butterflies'
Asimina triloba

You mentioned Oxydendrum being on your list, and it seems this would be a natural choice for this prominent site. Flowers that arrive in mid to late summer, and can last until leaves start to change in fall. I would dearly love to have a specimen Sourwood gracing our place.

Thanks, Maackia. I agree and as of now, it is between Franklinia and Oxydendrum. There is one down the street from me that is just spectacular.

Victor

Oxydendrum is simply beautiful. I'd like a few more of those. If you are able to grow Franklinia, I envy you and would encourage you to try it in your landscape.

My Franklinia bit the dust. Guess it's time to try again... and again... and again. It was doing so well. Guess it's up there with Kalmia for me.

Computers are picky 'Elliotia racemosa' should be 'Elliottia racemosa'.
It is also sold as 'Cladothamnus racemosa'.
These are also synonyms
Botryostege
Tripetaleia

Oxydendrum
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=OXAR

Some Rhododendrons will gow 50' or more in the wild. They don't come close in captivity. The giants are not commercially available, but can be found here:
http://www.rhodygarden.org/page/page/1083572.htm

I am sprouting seed including Elliottia. I am not sure of Oxydendrum. Cutting grown would be quicker to flower.
Larry

The Sourwood would be far bigger than 20'.

From what I gather they can get really tall when forest grown. This from William Cullina's NATIVE TREES, SHRUBS & VINES:

"They can develop into tall trees in time, though this is mostly in forest situations where they must climb up for light. In the open, they seem to get to a comfortable 15 to 25 feet and just stay there, slowly growing wider but still retaining their narrow, single-trunked figure."

Thanks. Both have their merits. I guess neither is particularly fast growing, thus the desire for a larger one to start with. I am still not limiting it to just those two however. Advantages of say, crape myrtle, are that they are fast growing, bloom time is perfect, deer don't bother them (neither does anything else - at least the mildew resistant ones), many sizes / colors to choose from and great Fall color. And in my neck, they are not that common. Still, I have quite a few already. The pondering continues. Thanks to all for your help. It's greatly appreciated.

Victor

Move your other ones to the pool area and put some new (different) ones in the empty space.

That's a possibility. However, I already can see many crapes from the pool area, including three Sarah's Favorites, two Tuscarora and many Pocomokes. In fact, one of the Sarahs is only about 12-15 feet away.

Victor