Burp(ee)?

So sad. Reading the wonderful and humorous writings of Dan Hinckley made me feel like a friend. I ordered plants as well, so I am horrified that the collection will be either left to decline, or sold to pay off someone else's debt.

I think a fund for Heronswood and it's employees might be a very good thing to do. How can we start?

Boycotting Burpee's is fine, but is Cook's Garden another Heronswood with employees who would simply be sent packing when they are not making money anymore?

Never having been to Heronswood and never having purchased anything from it, I can say that I did see it mentioned once on the internet- but at 7300 ft. in the mountains of New Mexico, I knew I could not afford enough water to keep any plants from the PNW alive.

Nevertheless, I understand and respect the loss those of you who relied on Heronswood must have felt when Burpee closed it down.

The real culprit here isn't the previous owners of Heronswood. It is the fault of corporate ownership. I didn't realize that Monstanto owned Burpee, though I had noticed that I no longer found unique and interesting seed there. I was appalled to discover that Monsanto also owned Cook's Garden which I occasionally still patronize.

Corporations are international and are not human. The stockowners of Monsanto are worldwide. They know little or, more likely, nothing about Heronswood or the Pacific North West. The only thing that matters to corporations is the bottom line and the salaries of their top management. Even George Ball has nothing to say about the ultimate destiny of Burpee. He is only carrying out the orders of its owners.

To find the reason for why Monsanto wanted Burpee and Heronswood and probably Cooks Garden, consider what Monsanto does. It attempts to sell seed to the world, especially genetically modified seed. Burpee definitely owns some genetic lines that it developed. I don't know about Heronswood but the posts keep referring to "genetic material". Large corporations have been seeking genetic material which, once they have patented it, become exclusively their own. These strains can be mixed and matched with other strains -- such as Big Boy, Early Girl, etc. to create new types of seeds and plants, some of which cannot be propagated because Monsanto combines them with a gene it has developed that stops their ability to produce viable seed. Seed frp, them can only be propagated by the owner of the original genetic code.

There have been cases in court, US and international, where plants with traditional uses have been patented with the intent of charging for the use of that plant for traditional reasons. Consider the case of turmeric, an ancient cure for inflamation in India and the orient, which was patented in the US as a cure for inflamation. Luckily, some people from India sued and nullified that patent, but there is an ongoing fight throughout the world by corporations to patent the genetics of traditional plants (Heronswood? Burpee?) and to sell them as a corporation's private resources. No doubt both Burpee and Heronswood owned such genetic material.

The problem here has nothing to do with George Ball, except his willingness to be used as a tool, or the owners of Heronswood, who were probably just hoping for a decent retirement -- and, in this day and age, who can blame them for that? ( Of course, big corporations do have something to do with the disappearance of pensions.)

The ugly truth is that Americans, and those of other countries, need to regulate big corporations and stop them from controlling our seeds, our food, and even our government. This is not something that affects just people in the PNW or the people in the US. People all over the world are in danger of having their traditional plants owned by Monstanto and a handful of other big corporations. But the US has been loosening regulations of corporations for some time, not tightening them. This is part of the reason for the Seed Savers Movement, but there need to be massive legislative efforts to stop this thievery, as well.

Accountants can explain to you why US corporations buy and shut down smaller corporations. There are tax incentives for doing so, and not just in the area of agriculture and nurseries. Corporate tax reform is badly needed in the US to prevent such tax boondoggles for corporations. But the larger problem is that no one should be allowed to patent genetic sequences of wild and/or traditionally grown plants. Genetic variation belongs to the world. Trying to patent genetic sequence which has long been around is akin to trying to own a star or a planet -- something that could come up in the future. It is wrong for anyone to own the genetic code of a plant or animal they did not develop themselves. There are people in India currently translating ancient Sanscrit healing manuals and entering the contents into databases, just so patent offices and courts can see what the traditional herbs and cures are so they can prevent them from being patented by the likes of Monstanto.

Believe me, I hope locals and non-profits can take over Heronswood and maintain it as it was before, but the problem is a lot bigger than Heronswood. We should all be concerned.


This message was edited Jun 4, 2006 7:02 PM

Burpee seeds eh? I never ordered from Heronswood but I knew of them, they had a good reputation. I don't like what they've done either. I for one, won't be buying any more Burpee seeds because of this sad affair.

Will

Hmmm...I see both sides. I liked Heronswood, bought many plants there. Some lived, some died. But, they decided to sell. One does not buy a business because they intend to lose money. One also does not sell a business because they intend to preserve its heritage and method of operation. Both parties agreed to a deal. Mr. Ball is well known for making bad business decisions. This appears to be another one of those bum decisions. Perhaps the real estate has become far more valuable than the original purchase price. As a businessman who bought a money-losing business(or turned it into one), he has an out if the real estate has appreciated. That would be my guess. Salvage what plants you can, pawn the real estate for a profit, and the whole transaction takes on a positive tone. The nursery business IS in decline, and with shipping costs, fuel costs, inflation everywhere(including plant prices), I am sure Heronswood's business was down. I did not see anything interesting enough this year to place an order. If I bought a business in a state of fundamental decline, I wouldn't keep it open either. Business is business, and nobody owes the plant geek world a cent. It's too bad we won't have the opportunity to purchase newly acquired gems from all over the world, but if there is enough demand for such plant material, someone will find the material to satisfy that demand. That is how capitalism works.

Pajaritomt, you bring up a very interesting line of reasoning. The reason for Heronswood's success as a nursery was the variety of plant material that could not be found for sale anywhere else, and so much of it all in one place. I totally agree that original species should not be able to be patented, unless God is the patent holder. It is ludicrous that any corporation could be able to claim ownership over naturally occuring plant genetics. yes, they need to be stopped.

I don't know what the contract between Burpee and Dan Hinkley looked like, but I understood that Burpee agreed to leave Heronswood 'as is'. And Dan signed a 'do not compete' agreement. I'm thinking that if Dan had decided that he suddenly wanted to 'compete' with Burpee, Burpee would have seen him in court. I wonder what Burpee's legal obligation was to uphold the contract with Dan.

I will try to find out what is going on in terms of community response.

WOW! Is all that I can say. I had no idea that this had happened. Of couse, eventually it had to happen, or would likely have happened, without some kind of genius foresight and planning. It really makes me sick that the corporate world is running the world now, with a few boughten political puppets. This is much bigger than Heronswood; it is happening in farming (we have a dairy farm) and few farm families have children that want to take on all of that hard, shitty (literally) work.
So the land is eventually sold to a combination of developers and big box farm product corporations...
It brings up the personal individual problem of how does one carry on a vision after their own demise? Whether by death or retirement.
What will happen to my own slowly growing and unique garden when I am too old to care for it? We saw this just down the road from our farm a couple of years ago - an older farm woman that had made their yard into a garden heaven died. The property was sold. The first thing done by the buyers, or perhaps the real estate people was to cut down ALL of the trees in the yard, and buldoze and level all of the irises and other perennials...Now there is another acre of lawn to be mowed with a riding mower.
Guess we need to be mentoring heirs to our visions of the world that can carry on the quest. And becoming very well educated about what the powers that be have up their sleeves.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I was wondering what was going on when I received a full color catalog from heronswood this spring. Usually a new format means the death throes of a company, and I was right in my suspicion.
Sharon

There is something to be learned from Caitlinsgarden's reply. Far, far too many of the younger generation have no appreciation for trees and gardens. They also have no idea how long it takes to build a garden. To most of them a "garden" is a little mound in front of their house with a few petunias or impatiens with lots of mulch.
I do not know the answer to this but we can, in our own small way, try to teach the value of trees and shrubs and flowers in our environment. Beginning in the schools we can sponsor contests about gardening with prizes that children want to vie for--whether it be a paper they must write or a seed they must plant or a butterfly they can watch evolve in a jar. And, we as parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles can involve the younger ones in our gardening and tree planting so they can, one day, have a light bulb go off in their heads, appreciate those finer things in life. Usually, those things are carried down in families but unless we take the time to teach them (without them knowing) they cannot learn on their own in this fast paced, bigger is better, out with the old-in with the new, world of ours.

Allow me to interject a note of caution here.

These are - for all intents and purposes - "public" forums. (Even those that require a subscription are still open to anyone who wishes to pay to access them.) Your posts are not private messages, and may be indexed by search engines and traced back to you long after the initial shock of this news has worn off, and your outrage has subsided.

Defamation of character and libel claims can be pursued through our court system, if the person or entity harmed feels compelled to file suit. As a forum, we are not - according to US law - legally responsible for your words; but each of you as individuals ARE responsible for what you post. Please understand your legal and financial responsibility when discussing speculative issues.

Further, we have a long-standing "no current events"/"no politics" posting rule here at DG. While this is certainly gardening-related news, some of these posts have veered over into the fringe of politics. For every opinion ventured, there is an opposing and equally strong opinion ready to be offered by someone else. If the thread becomes too cluttered with heated opinions, rumors and speculations, we will remove it to keep peace.

However, we would strongly encourage everyone to simply "pick up after yourself" here and keep the thread focused on facts and helpful information. We provide you with the ability to edit your own posts for misspellings and "oopsies", as well as those times when further reflection causes you to regret your choice of words.

Thank you Terry.

Scott

Very good point, Terry.

Count me as inane, then, Pirl. I could never afford anything from Heronswood. Nice plants, and I'm sure they were worth the money, though.

Terry, are you referring to my post?

I think Terry is talking to all DGers who post and is kindly asking to think before you post. Emotions bring out problems now and in the future. Thanks Terry

I'm not singling out anyone's post here, just adding a note of caution to all because this thread is - understandably - an emotional topic for many. When emotions run high, most of us tend to to speak (or write) without really thinking through the potential ramifications of our words.

Terry's point is well taken. No one should ever put anything in print that he or she does not want to see in a court of law and posting to a web site has the weight of publishing.

I am new to DG forums and did get a little political in my post. I did notice there weren't any politics on this website, but I guess I didn't know that it was verboten. On the other hand, I do agree that it is easy to wreck a perfectly good discussion by bringing up politics.

My previous post was rather political, though it didn't espouse any candidates. It did espouse views of corporate control. And corporate control, is, in fact, the stuff of government.

So mea culpa, I do tend to slip easily into politics -- my other passion besides gardening. I don't really want to take anything back, but I couldn't resist framing the Heronswood situation in a much more global picture.

Certainly, my view on the subject is my own. I am not here to proselytize and will try to stick to tomatoes, irises, trees, and recipes. I do enjoy this forum very much and would hate to politicize it too much.

And I certainly hate to see any beautiful garden wrecked.

Betty

Well put, Betty.

Please excuse my rant. I will try to keep my comments on the subject of the forum. I suppose there are more appropriate places to discuss volatile subjects.

Betty, I appreciate your input, though it may border on the political. Sometimes it's hard to separate out politics from what is happening locally and globally.

Terry,
What about questions that involve intricate interweaving of nature / corporations and the global community? What would be an appropriate way to discuss this - and if anyone is interested in this topic it is gardeners. I like to think of us as stewards of the earth...how can we discuss dangers to our eden without using any kind of political or corporation words? How do we educate people who may not be aware
of the dangers of pesticides, etc.
Is it possible to have a forum here that would allow the give and take of opinions and facts on these topics? Lacking that, does anyone know of a forum for garden lovers that allows this type of discussion in the name of education?
Sharon

I would appreciate that information as well. In general I am a fan of DG's policy of 'no politics' since it helps everyone get along and focus on gardening. I certainly learned my lesson on this early in my membership, as I think most people do. But I agree that there are some issues that cannot be discussed in depth without touching on subjects that are taboo here. There needs to be another forum, whether on DG or some other place, that allows informed discussion to proceed. These subjects are too important to keep quiet about. For instance, I had totally forgotton about Monsanto's connection to patenting genetic material. This is factual information that can be found easily, not just someone's opinion. I had simply forgotton about it.

Kevin_5 - Certainly Burpee had the "right" to close Heronswood if it was losing money for them. What is a legal right and what is ethical in the way it is done are totally different issues. It is my opinion that closing any facility down without warning to both the employees and the customers smacks of a narcissism that is going to come back around to bite the 'closer'. And well it should and I hope it hurts badly. I benefit as much from capitalism as the next American does, but everything has a dark side. When decisions are made purely because of 'money' and the humanitarian issues are not considered, I think that is the very darkest side of capitalism. It is simply wrong, whether it is legal or not. Saying that it was just a 'business' decision does not excuse the behavior.

I agree with you both Pixydish and caitlinsgarden. It is very difficult to separate the political from the non-political. And many of us who garden are doing so for political reasons -- we don't like the kind of food we get in the grocery store -- too many chemicals -- not enough flavor and nutritional value. We want to help preserve small farms and eat food that hasn't been shipped from halfway around the wrold. The entire idea of Organic Gardening, which many of us practice, is sort of anti-corporate. And corporations are created and given legal rights by government. The Seed Saver Exchange was founded with the idea of keeping traditional seeds available in the public domain so no one owns them and people can continue to farm without purchasing seed.
Probably what we should watch out for is getting into party politics and into campaigning on Dave's Garden. Government regulation is a very political subject, but government regulation of ownership of genetic material is very deeply embedded in gardening.
I don't really know how to draw the line, except to say that we should remain on the gardening side and try to avoid candidates and political philosophies. Certainly we should continue to talk about the ethics of genetic manipulation of plant material. Probably that is okay.
I expect that Terry, too, would have a hard time saying where to draw the line or she would already have done so.
I think a forum on genetic ownership would be very hot and that it is very timely right now. I guess we could see if such a forum could be handled in a civilized manner. I get a lot of interesting articles from SSE, of which I am a member, and wouldn't mind sharing some of the info I get. I actually know a high powered lawyer whose expertise is ethics in genetic law.
One thing that would be essential would be not to defame anyone's character. That can all be traced by anyone who wants to sue for slander. On the other hand, I can't see anything wrong with expressing one's own moral outrage at what a person has done, as long as the person has really done it.
Anyhow, lets agree to talk about genetics but not candidate politics and see how it goes.
Does anyone know how to start another forum?
Betty

Ummm, sorry guys - unless Dave's had a big change of heart recently (and I don't think so), the answer is no - as in no politics, period. It's a clear and firm line that he drew several years ago.

Anytime political activism (with or without overt political party affiliations) enters the discussion, it soon digresses into disagreement.

There are other forums "out there" that allow (and some even encourage) political discussions of all types. But not here; not in the name of gardening, conservationism, environmentalism, or anything else.

So okay then. Not here. But is it ok to mention an alternative forum here? If anyone knows of one? ;>))))
Peace,
Sharon

We've always been fairy casual about members mentioning competing forums....within reason. It is bad 'netiquette to use a forum to recruit its members away to another forum, so if the references or overtures become too numerous and/or blatant, we may do some judicious pruning.

ILike many of you, I have very strong views about what is being done to our planet by certain unnamed corrupt politicians of both major parties. When I occasionally lose control and let something slip, Terry lets out a little sigh and comes to the rescue and edits me without sending me to Disneyland, and always I appreciate that (well, later, once I calm down!). But I don't think we need to get into politics to agree that we should try to rescue Heronswood from the dumpster as a starting point. For now, can we pursue that objective, via whatever carrots and sticks might be effective with Burpee/Monsanto? I hope that Pixy and Sofer and others who have local or "inside" information will coordinate such action, and that options such as Patrick's idea can be explored.
Guy S.

Thanks, Terry, for clarifying your position. I know of no other forum that has discussions of issues related to genetic politics, but I do recommend to anyone who cares that they join the Seed Savers Exchange. Unfortunately it costs $35 per year, but they do send out excellent publications that cover these issues. There are reduced prices for seniors etc.
They also have a seed exchange.
I for one, can abide by Dave's rules, not that they are clear. If I find another forum, I will mention it here, once.

Well the ongoing concerns are merited (on Herronswood) and a concentrated effort to "save herronswood" is a laudable idea. But I feel that it is the emerging plants that made Herronswood a place unlike any other. Dans collection will become common in a short period of time and the interest is sooner or later to be lost. Like Dan said, his employees were his best friends because they all created this garden. Now they, including Dan, are gone and the emotions of presevation are never as acute as the emotions of creation. As far as myself, I choose to see the next phase of Dan's career. I chose to enjoy the wonderment of his next phase. Not to dwell on the legacy of his Herronswood. If there is interest in preservation, I think it could be driven by someone public like Martha Stewart. She though has seen also the destruction of being in the public eye and probably is relaxing in her anonymity. In a recent interview Dan when asked about another nursery, his answer is that he has no interest in starting another nursery. He is currently writing 2 books and collecting specimens around the world. There are rumors for his creativity to be expressed more widely. Also he just returned from Washington DC after accepting an horticulture honor from our dear Uncle Sam. Bob is employed in his previous occupation of architecture.

I agree in part with you, soferdig, but I think Heronswood is worth preserving for the value of it being a fabulous garden. The creative use of plants, the hardscape, plus the unusual specimens makes is a garden with little to equal it. Starhillforest, I fear that I do not have the inside scoop, as it were. I live about an hour from Heronswood. But I will keep my ear to the ground for news of any thing around here. Other people might hear something before I do, even though they may live in another part of the country.

Who doesn't one of you write Mr. Ball and see if the Heronwood property is for sale and at what price. Maybe you could do a bunch of local fund raisers and open the nursery again as a public park. Perhaps some of the former employees will come back and some new ones can be trained. It will never be quite the same, but it could be very nice, perhaps even better.

Not that I want to engage in it...but when I hung out at GW, occasionally I'd stroll over to a link to a forum over on Nature.net (I think) where some real nuts (those are seeds, right?) went at it hammer and tongs about all things environmental, and especially vigorously about genetic politics.

For those of you who wish to partake...http://nature.gardenweb.com/forums/sustain/

That burned my fingers, just linking to it.

I wish we could discuss certain things like ethics of genetic manipulation of plant and seed material. This is something I plan on learning more about after reading Keith Stewart's Book "It's A Long Road To a Tomato" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1569243301/sr=8-1/qid=1149639215/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2566933-2940747?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Oh, and did anyone get the e-mail from Tony Advent of Plant Delights? His thoughts on the sale of Heronswood, etc.

Tony Avent...no I did not.

Thanks for mentioning the email from PDN. Somehow I think I've been removed from their email list so I just rejoined. I have been thinking that if Dan wanted to continue his plant finding expeditions he would have a perfect outlet there to introduce new finds.

I think I am more disappointed in the former owners of heronswood than anything. Would have hoped for more imagination in seeking a creative solution to their retirement plans. Would have hoped that it would have been publicized as an opportunity for someone else, or perhaps a trust set up to keep it going for the spiritual inspiration of the public. Or a wonderful retreat. Something other than a capitalist venture...But disappointed is the only word that really fits.

Seed Savers - YES!. We live near them and they have a wonderful garden to visit. As they have to keep these seeds growing, they have large areas of, for example, umpteen different kinds of lettuces, all of which will self sow true, as they are all open pollinated.

Garden Web - NO. Can't abide their $#@^!~ blinkin' ads!

Found an interesting website with a lot of discussion on various topics:
www.ubcbotanicalgardening.org We also like to get our news from foreign news webs, as they don't have the same restraint on what is said that some of our media have.

I agree with Terry about needing to look for positive ways to solve problems. Negative bashing rarely accomplishes anything, but it does serve the purpose of calling attention to problem areas.

For those who care to venture into the blogosphere for further reading on this topic:

http://dirtbyamystewart.blogspot.com/2006/06/nursery-too-interesting-catalog-too.html

Caitlin- your link has a mistype

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/

Was Heronswood not profitable when Burpee purchased them? Referring to the Ball quote "When we purchased this six years ago, we were anxious to make it a profitable company..."

- Brent

thanks for the links. I zipped of a fairly long missive to our friend, George. But who knows if he'll ever actually read it.

Evidently it was not profitable, in spite of Hinkley's best efforts. A nursery like this, full of rare plants that appeal not to the masses, but only to people really interested in the plants themselves, cannot operate on the same profit formula as the mass-marketing catalogs Burpee is famous for. I'm not sure what they were thinking when they bought it.