Need ideas for a shady bed

I need to preface this by saying that I am very new to gardening...an absolute beginner. We cleared away a lot of brush last summer and formed a raised bed in front of a large rock. Just recently filled it with good dirt and compost and threw in a couple hostas that my father in law donated to us. Nearly the entire bed sits in the shadow of a tall tree that is on the corner of our property...it's not what I would call deep, dark shade, but really the only direct sun that hits it comes in the late afternoon.

I have absolutely no idea what to put in the bed or how to arrange things...I went to a nursery, and although I think I have a handle on the types of plants I could put there, I really don't know how many to get, what to put where, what looks good next to what, etc. I know the tags tell you about height and spacing, but being so inexperienced, I just can't visualize the end result when holding a little tiny potted plant. If plants were dirt cheap, I'd just get a bunch and wing it, but of course they're not! I was hoping to get suggestions from those with experienced eyes.

I do like a natualistic, woodlandy kind of feel...don't care so much for little mounds of impatiens, and that type of thing. I prefer salmons, dark pinks, plums, greens and white over blues and yellows. I don't want to put things in that totally obscure the rock, as I think it's fairly interesting. I was wondering if there was a low shade plant that would look particularly good in front of the rock? And I have to avoid any plants which would be poisonous to dogs, since I have a little eater here.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated! Here are several pics and views of the area...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/colleenseamus/garden/IMGP1560.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/colleenseamus/garden/IMG_0038.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/colleenseamus/garden/IMGP1558.jpg

OMG! That is beautiful! I would have so much fun with that. LOL My first thought would be a water fall with a pond out in front of the front row of rocks. I'd fill the the sides in with a bunch of Heuchera, hosta, astilbe and ferns. Okay, I'll go sit down and behave now. :)

Thanks, and I also thought of the waterfall thing, lol. The rock would look great with that, but I know it would become one big drinking dish for my dogs and I don't like the thought of them drinking that recycled water. So, that's probably out. Heuchera, hosta, astilbe and ferns are what I was figuring on, too...but there are so many varieties of each that I don't know which ones to pick that would complement each other. I'm an artist, too, so you'd think that I would know these things, but I don't. I did buy three white bridal veil astibles that you can see in that one picture...was thinking about lining them along that right side curve but wasn't sure if they'd end up being too big...if so, I have another corner in the yard I could put them in.

You have a beautiful property. What fun to design with it. I like that you have the evergreen in the back. In design terms it's best to think of starting at the back. Tall astilbes are good in front of beautiful rocks because they are airy and it's really the flowers that get so tall, not the plants themselves.

I'd love to see a weeping Japanese Maple on the left hand side of that rock. That would give you some height and a focal point. You can bring unity to the bed with a red crimson queen or other red weeping tree and then using small groups of red heucheras to carry the dark red color across the beds. It's very effective.

If you want to do hostas, I'd pick out some large ones and start there. They take a lot of room so they also can give you a place to begin. It looks as if you've already begun this.

With this beautiful hardscape it's hard to go wrong.

One thing though, if you are going to have a lot of different plantings going on, it's sometimes really nice to use an edger hosta- not all the way across but certainly sweeps of them across the front of the bed. This can be done without too much money by starting with some small fast-growing ones and continuing to divide them fairly often. They multiply much faster that way.

Ferns are wonderful. Fancy Fronds has a database search engine that will search by zone and several other things. The owner is very helpful in getting ferns for you that will work in your situation. If you send her a photo, I'm sure that she'll suggest some. These are some really fun ferns. Since I'm zone-handicapped here it's best to send you to the database. Photos of almost all of them too.
http://www.fancyfronds.com/

It's a magical place with nothing in it, it's going to be glorious planted.

Noreaster,
I love your new bed. I wish I was there to help you plant it! Ferns would look lovely again your back drop of rock. Their are many ferns in the Athyrium family that have burgundy in them, many Heuchera, Heucherella and Astible have deep red/plum colors in foliage,Tiarrella's. How about Aquilegia's? Jack-in-the-Pulpit (Arisaemas)?....I'll bet you would be able to grow a lot of plants in the part shade range (which opens up a lot of suggestion) I would suggest looking up these 'family' of plants in the PlantFiles and find some you like then going and hunt them down when you have a bunch that you like bring em home & arrange them according to how they appeal to you! Spacing them appropriately. That's how we do it.
I am so excited for you. I can't wait to see pictures!

Noreaster - you have a beautiful spot and you have picked all of the right plants in my opinion. Everyone else has weighed in on the hostas, astibles and ferns....for the huecharas.....you can play with color. The standard dark coral bells sets off the amber and other brighter colors beautifully. They don't get huge. Also, I bought a red clover at Well Sweep Herb Farm yesterday that is low growing and very very colorful and pretty. I also planted a chamelion...partial shade. Specifically, houttuynia cordata "variegata". I mention this because every visitor in the past week has asked..."what's that nifty new plant?"

I can't wait to see your garden when planted! HM

Beautiful suggestions HM. But Houttuynia cordata has been listed as a top ten thug list on DG. How do you keep it under control?
http://davesgarden.com/pf/

Thank you all for the good suggestions and the links..I really appreciate it. Shadyfolks, I wish you were here to help me plant it, too, lol. I really need a lot of handholding. My parents came up to visit me in Maine last summer and helped us put in a row of perrennials along the side of the house...that, I think I can handle now. But attempting to think in three dimensional terms has me floundering a bit. Sounds like I just may need to dive in and learn by trial and error.

We bought the house several years ago from a woman who had no interest in landscaping, and since we didn't know the first thing about it either, it was extremely unruly in no time. Here's what the same area looked like in early June of last year.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/colleenseamus/gardenbeforeandafter.jpg

I found I really enjoyed taking stuff out...not so confident with putting back in. :) The rocky ledge runs the whole length of the back yard.. There are about four separate rocky formations which could be interesting, this one being the biggest one. Really the whole yard has loads of potential in the right hands...lots of interesting contours. When the leaves finish filling in, the whole back line on the other side of our fence becomes very dark and dense. I plan on putting in a lot of native ferns on the left and right sides of the yard, replacing the many saplings that are sprouting up. I think ferns would be very happy in our backyard environment., so I would like to include some in the rock bed, too. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

This message was edited May 13, 2006 10:55 PM

After seeing what happened when you took the plantings out of the space, I'd say that you could over do very easily. It should stay simple so the rocks have their space. I'm so glad that you included the photo.

doss....a thug? I had no idea. It is just a small pretty plant at this point. I always check grasses and thistles and tassle-like flowers for "thug-ish-ness" but never considered that this one that looks like a heuchera could be a brute. I have it in a spot contained by driveway and sidewalk on 2 sides, and lawn on a third, and need to walk by it daily so will keep an eye on it.

Thanks for the info. HM

It is so beautiful - I agree. I've heard pretty bad stories about it. There should be warnings where they sell stuff. I put in some Carex Morrowii Ice Dance - which also grows in shade and is beautiful, but it grows by runners - I had to take it out and move it to the parkway where it wouldn't eat my other plants. No warnings from the nursery where I bought it either. If you need a tough groundcover for shade it's great though.

My teenage digger and I reviewed the situation today and agreed that we would move our beautiful thug to the back garden where there is a lot of moist clay soil. We can't get anything else to grow there. It is bounded by the shed and the back fence and gets tramped on quite a bit. There is enough light to show off the pretty colors and it can only improve the current mudhole. We decided this was the best course of action because the bed it is currently in is hard to dig and it would be awful to have to grind in it to pull out root threads. We already have one invasive ground cover taking over this bed and we don't need a war ( although the kid did think that would be kind of interesting.....). The innocent civilians of the garden - the heuchuras, the sedums, the iris, the poppy and the mums deserve better. HM

Doss - PS - I also noted that the nursery where I got many of my new plants this year was selling purple loosestrife with no warnings of invasiveness....since the shop is close by I will break my garden runs into separate trips...one to write down plant names and the second to actually buy after I have researched the ones I'm not familiar with. I guess this is what the camera function on my new cell phone is for..isn't it? HM

I guess so. Thugs sure have their uses, I agree. The houttuynia will be great where it can't invade any place else and those hard-to-grow areas are good places to use plants that can get out of hand.

Doesn't your nursery take things back? If I buy something and find out it won't work then I just take it back. Maybe because I don't have a camera on my phone?

Oh no, another piece of technology that I'm missing. LOL

You aren't missing much.....but I have found that dumb camera comes in handy at the oddest times. Rather than writing down the name, phone number and email address on a sign this morning (and then losing it after I wrote it down) I just snapped a picture of it. I have been using it to send pics of plants to my sister in Arizona to get her take on some of my choices....HM

It may not be much - but it sure sounds like fun! How wonderful to be able to photograph things instead of looking for a piece of paper and a pencil.

hi-I'm new to Dave's Garden, but have much experience growing things in the shade...and have the deer to contend with too. I planted one..only one..chameleon plant and NEVER again. I can't get rid of the stuff. It's almost as bad as sedum.!! I use mainly hostas...have 40+ varities right now & add more each year, along with astilbe, coral bells and the usual shade garden ground covers. I have taken to going out in the woods & gathering pine needles to use as mulch under the hostas as the slugs will not crawl over them. Ugly little "goobers." Your spot looks like it has great potential for just about anything you might want to do shade-wise.

Welcome Maijab! I'm glad that you are here. We all can use some new ideas about our shade gardens. It sounds as if you have a big place with so many hostas.

Noreaster, we've lost the thread of your garden to evil plants. Do you want to continue?

Some of my favorite shade or part-shade plants. Note that I'm in a warmer zone than you, so you may want to check zones:

Japanese anemones, especially the single-flowered ones. They have beautiful foliage throughout the growing season, are OK with a fair bit of shade, and have lovely simple fresh-looking flowers in the fall that contrast nicely with the heavier and more complex flowers (chrysanthemums, the last roses,etc.) that usually bloom in fall. To me, they look right in a foresty place, when so many other flowering plants look wrong. They do take a year or two to take hold, so if they don't do much the first year don't give up and yank them out.

Sweet box. (Sarcococca ruscifolia or sarcococca confusa.) Visually it's just a pleasantly green shrub, and the flowers are so small as to be hard to make out, but the flowers bloom with a lovely scent in the winter when there are very few other good-smelling things in the garden. I refuse to be without it now.

Sweet woodruff. A nice unassuming woodsy ground cover that blooms in white once in a while.

Pachysandra. Yes, it's very very commonly used, no doubt overused, but I really like the way the foliage blends with other things.

Bulbs! I planted a lot of Siberian squills in one of my shade beds last year, and was very pleased with the result this spring.

Violets? Some people love 'em, some people classify them as a weed. I love 'em.

Daphne odora, if you can get it to grow - my first attempt died from either too much sun or bad drainage; I'm waiting to see how the second attempt, in a raised bed with much more shade, does. A wonderful smell. I don't like the appearance of the variegated kind, though everyone seems to prefer it.

Burnet

I love violets too. I use them in places where nothing else will grow. They even grow under my black walnut tree. Difficult to get rid of once they're in but easily contained. It all depends on what you want.

Pachysandra is overdone for a reason. It works. And I like it too.

doss, yes, I'm still here. Not much to report, progress wise this week.

I did visit a local nursery, but didn't see anything that struck my fancy or seemed particularly appropriate. Someone told me about a garden place about an hour away that specializes in shade perennials and has beautiful display gardens set up, so I'm planning to take a trip up there.

Meanwhile the talls trees are still not totally leafed out, and the two hostas in the picture have gotten fairly enormous...bigger than I thought they'd be.

Interesting that you suggested Daphne, Burnet, as someone at the nursery directed me to that...I really liked the look of it, but when I went home, found out that it was highly toxic if consumed. (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/poison/Daphnod.htm) I hope you all don't think I'm nuts, but my younger dog is absolutely terrible when it comes to eating stuff in the yard. Until and unless he grows out of it, I don't want to take any chances on planting something that would be harmful if he eats it. I'm getting fairly frustrated because I feel like everything I like is on the toxic to pets list. He's so bad, I actually caught him eating a slug the other day- how good could that possibly taste?!?

We have a huge area of Lily of the Valley covering another side of the yard...another plant which is said to be highly toxic to dogs. I like the look of it, but have actually thinking about trying to replace that with Pachysandra. Probably not a project for this year... For now, to keep my dog out of it, I just put up a tacky little wire fence around it. I don't think I'd want the Pachysandra in the raised bed, however. It's really not a huge area, but I guess I'd like it to be something special. I do feel like it could use a shot of color, but still not sure exactly what...

Burnet, I did notice some sweet woodruff at the nursery...that caught my eye. It had little white flowers blooming on it. Is it interesting when not blooming?

Sweet woodruff stays a bright green all year after the blooms go....and it has that petite-leaf look that is different than ferns but still pairs nicely with the big hosta leaves. It's worth it just for the flowers which have an enticing smell. It is just plain pretty. It is used in German May wine which is intoxicating because it generally involves a mixture of both wine and champagne as well as having sweet woodruff leaves steeped in it. I don't have the scientific facts at my fingertips...but I believe that woodruff is slightly toxic....hence the intoxicating effect (along with the wine and champagne of course) It's fun to have an herb that grows well in shade...since most of the aromatics are sun-hogs. When my partners and I went to the Fancy Food Show in New York a few years back...a German purveyor was pouring May wine. His English was limited...he described the herb as "a lovely herb which the goats like". We later determined it was sweet woodruff...but have wondered since why he felt that we should like it because the goats did. Now we grow it and like it....just like the goats. HM

I don't know if I'm too late to chime in, but here goes anyway. I noticed one of the earlier posts mentioned Jack-in-the-pulpits - these are beautiful, but poisonous. You mentioned that those cute Boston's of yours might eat the plants, so I'd be careful.

As for my suggestions as to what to put in, you might look at wintergreen for a groundcover. I got a couple for my own shade garden and they are a lovely dark green only a couple of inches high with bright red berries. (Unfortunately, the bed is about 3 months behind schedule being made, so they're still in pots, but spreading nicely all the same - or trying to). And, if the puppies eat some, you have the advantage of 'minty-fresh' doggie breath! :-)

So what I'm finding is that virtually all "woodlandly" type plants seem to be toxic on some level- great! Yes, I do need to be careful, since my younger dog is really something else with the plant eating.

I'm unsure of how to use groundcover in a raised bed...won't it just spread out and take over the whole thing, since it's not a huge space to begin with? Remember, I know nothing about gardening....when I think of groundcover, I think of it covering large-ish spots of ground (like the way the lily of the valley covers a 15' slope on the other side of our yard.)

Noreaster,
My experience with dogs (3 1/2 yrs. now) is limited. We live in the woods and about the only thing my dog (Lab) or the neighbors two dogs (mixes) are interested in eating are the grasses, like the Hakonechola, sticks and bark.... I have purchased Jack-in-the-pulpits and we have hundreds of the native ones all around and they show no interest in them. I have to say that I have never even thought about what plants might me poisonous to dogs (oops). I think they 'know what they can eat and what they can't...smarter than us humans, in some ways.

My dogs love Hakonechola grass too! And it's so sticky!!! I don't get it. Sometimes they eat the mondo too but there are some dogs that just won't stop tasting the world.

Just checked out hydrangeas and they are poisonous too. How about miniature evergreens? Perfect for a rock garden.

We used to have a Bittersweet vine which was entwined with the lilac tree that hangs over our deck. My dog would eat the red berries that would fall to the deck...he'd only eat one or two and then would have bad vomiting attacks after a little while in the house. One day I let him out after a storm and went to answer the phone. Came out and saw him gorging himself on the berries that had fallen from the storm- we're talking hundreds now. So, he didn't learn that those berries were not good for him, and I had to take him to the vet for that episode. He's now six and is over the eat everything.

Mickey, my one year old is out of control with it. We have some hostas along the house...one day this Spring, Mickey walks over to where one of them was just coming up in that tight little spire and bites off the top few inches! So now the hosta is unfurled and growing with bite marks on many of the leaves- lovely. So, for now, I'd rather be safe than sorry, I guess. I'm sure he'll grow up, eventually.

I'll look into the miniature evergreens...hadn't thought of that. The winters here are so long and bleak that it is nice to have some things that stay green and alive looking.

Noreaster,
LOL, you are bring back the puppy memories I had forgotten. Maggie's first year she would also eat the hosta eyes as they were emerging. Then it was time to spray the Hosta with Liquid Fence and she went after the Liquid Fence. I couldn't win for nothing that year. She also that first winter went after my plant labels in the snow and pull them out. Our good neighbor ( who was letting her out at lunch time) would then put the labels back where she thought they had come from...LOL. I'm surprised I don't have more gray hairs!

On groundcover: I use groundcover to fill the blank spaces between larger plants - my goal (never achieved, since something new is always going in) is to have no empty mulched space at all.

So if I'm starting a new bed, I'll place my larger plants where I want them, often at a spacing that would have their leaves just meeting when they reach maturity. But maturity will take a few years, especially for shrubs, so I also plant ground cover in the spaces between the plants, at whatever the ground cover's proper spacing is. This does mean that I need to choose ground covers that won't swallow/hamper larger plants - for example, pachysandra or sweet woodruff would just grow quietly underneath the big plants and eventually quietly expire when it's completely shaded out, while vinca or lily of the valley would take over.

If the bed will eventually contain all shrubs or other plants that take a long time to reach maturity, I may do this same scheme at two levels, filling in between the shrubs with short-lived or frequently-divided (since I'll have to disturb them in a couple of years anyway) perennials, and filing in between the perennials with ground cover. I _really_ don't like blank space. :)

Burnet

Burnet, thanks for explaining that....that is very helpful to me. I have been wondering about the blank spaces and whether not that is a good or a bad thing. This is what I mean by not understanding how to deal with the three dimensional aspect of this. The two hostas we stuck in there haphazardly do have some space between them. They are pretty mature plants from my FIL's garden...not sure it they'll get that much bigger (though they are already considerably bigger than they were in those pics.) So there are little pathways of ground/mulch between those and the three astilbes (that I did plant pretty much where they are in the pic). I feel like having open areas also encourages my dogs to wander in there, which of course I don't want.

So, if I were to plant only astilbe, hosta, ferns and maybe heuchera, would it look best to have a groundcover filling the spaces between all the plants? Any to avoid other than the two you already mentioned?

Shadyfolks, I know..puppies, gotta love 'em. My neighbors have got to be so sick of hearing me yell, "Mickey, LEAVE IT!" , it's not even funny.

This message was edited May 22, 2006 9:08 PM

There are some short astilbes - 10-12" that make great groundcover. There are also ferns that do the same thing. Another thing that might work for you is ginger Asarum virginicum 'Greenbrier' (Virginia Wild Ginger) for instance is hardy down to zone 5. Some of the polygonatum are hardy to zone 5 too. They make a good ground cover as well.

I would start with a structural plant - tree etc. at the right. Then go to taller plants at the back - eg ferns etc. Then add in your miniature evergreens and hostas. The hostas will be a little spotty as most of them get quite big. There are some other foliage plants that aren't often thought of. Some of the larger ligularias get quite tall and would look lovely at the back. Others are shorter. Most are hardy to zone 5. There is one - britt marie crawford that is dark red. Plant things in groups so that they aren't spotted all over. If you have a red theme like the britt marie crawford, a red maple and red heuchera let it take your eye across the space but still plant things in groupings so that it doesn't look spotty. Some astilbes have very dark, almost red foliage too.

We don't seem to be hitting the mark here. Are we missing something?

If it were me, I'd plant a groundcover/filler, yes. There are no doubt many others that would take over - others to avoid include ivy, and...er....OK, I'm sure there are _lots_ of others, but they're just not coming to mind now. :) The best plan might be to select one or more possibiltiies and then read up on them, looking them up on several different sites on the Internet. And, of course, you could ask about 'em here.

You could try choosing three or so, planting them in three zones in the bed, to see which one does best - it's always hard to predict what will definitely do well in a given set of conditions, and I think that areas of different foliages blending together always look nice anyway. My favorite shade foliage spot is a mix of pachysandra, columbine, lamium (I think - it climbed under the fence from the neighbors'), violets, and sweet woodruff, underneath a rather leggy (but in my opinion gracefully leggy) rhododendron.

Another possibility is a perennial that spreads somewhat like a groundcover - cranesbill comes to mind, or the columbine that I mentioned before. (Columbine spread by seed, not roots, but they do spread, and they have very nice foliage. I'm not crazy about the ones with the really showy two-tone flowers, but there are some very nice simpler ones.) Epimedium also strikes me as pretty special, though I can't tell you much about it because I just planted my first couple of plants. It's expensive and slow-growing, though, so you may not want to buy more than a few plants to see how it goes.

If it were me, I'd also be inclined to choose an evergreen groundcover, since most of the perennials that you have in mind will die back in winter. However, evergreen is more achievable for me in zone 8 and zone 9 than it is for you in zone 5, so that criteria might limit your choices so much that it's not worth it.

Leaving the topic of groundcovers, I do think that it would be good to add something larger and more structural - the plants that you've mentioned are all fairly small and soft, so you may have too much of the same..."category" is I guess the word I'm looking for. I understand that you have only so much space, but I still think that just a little more in the tall/architecture category may be called for.

(Edited to add: Of course, there's no rule that says that you have to achieve the perfect final plan right at the beginning. At any time, it's fine to just stop the designing and put plants in the ground. Even if you make changes later, you'll learn things from the experience. But as long as you're still into the designing, I figure I'll keep making suggestions.)

Burnet


This message was edited May 22, 2006 6:26 PM

Well, I know the chances of achieving a "perfect plan" are slim to none! I'm just trying to form a loose plan, really. In other words, I'd like to go the nursery with at least some idea what I'm looking for. When you really don't know what you're doing, nurseries and garden centers can be somewhat intimidating and overwhelming.

Regarding the suggestions for something tall/architecural...so, even with two birch trees and that slim little evergreen in there, I should still add another tree of some sort on the right? Remove one of the hostas to do so? How tall/full should it be? I guess I was focusing more on the low plants because I didn't want to lose the rock to a bunch of taller plants.

Doss, I've never heard of ligularia, so I looked it up. I generally don't love yellow flowers, but that is a really nice looking plant...I like the dark foliage a lot. I like the Ginger, too. Burnet, I feel the same way about Columbines as you- not crazy about the two tone ones, and that is all that I saw at my local nursery.

I cut the flower stems off. No point in ruining a nice foliage plant. :-)

There are a lot of ligularias.
http://www.bigdipperfarm.com/cgi-bin/searchstuff.pl?Botanical=Ligularia

I don't think that you need another tall tree. I think that you might like a shrubby tree like a Crimson Queen Japanese Maple on the left. You can build a garden around something like that. How shady is the space?

This is early spring so the hostas aren't up yet but it's a crimson queen with artemisia Powis Castle. It's not hardy in your area but you could grow it as an annual, grow Stachys or a gray hosta. There is a small yellow hosta there and daylilies behind.

The plants aren't important but layering colors and textures is.

Why don't you take this tour. You might get some great ideas. Her garden is a warm climate zone but the ideas can be transferred. She uses a lot of hens and chicks by the way and many can be grown in your zone.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/605799/

I wasn't necessarily thinking of a tree so much as...yes, something shrubby as Doss was saying. And I absolutely don't mean that you _need_ it, just when I envision (1) the existing tall things with a nice "pool" of softer smaller plants like the astilbe, ferns, etc. beneath them or (2) just one more "bump" in that pool of plants, on the left, I prefer the one-more-bump image. But it's emphatically a matter of opinion, IMO, not an obvious choice.

Burnet


This message was edited May 23, 2006 3:59 PM

I understand what you are saying. But so I'm clear, you would put the tree/shrub on the left part of the bed, where it is more narrow, as opposed to over on the right where the hostas are now? Wouldn't that totally obscure the rock? I was actually looking at Japanes Maples today at a nursery...they are very pretty. I'm confused about the variety of sizes with them...do you just prune them to keep them a smaller size, or are their actual dwarf varieties I should look for.

Also, this same nursery had that ligularia ( britt marie crawford) and it also had the "Othello" one growing in a display area...that was really pretty, as well, with the purple undersides to the leaves. And why didn't you tell me you're allowed to cut off flowers...that changes everything, lol. I think I would like to use that plant. Question- obviously the one they had on display must have been a mature plant from a previous year...it was several feet tall and wide (with no blooms) The potted one was quite tall, but so narrow. So is that just the way things are supposed to look as you put them in- skinny? Then the following year is when they look like a full plant? Hope that makes sense.

Doss, those gardens are beautiful in that link...really amazing. As a beginner, it's hard for me to get a sense of what a place like that would have looked like as it was newly planted...Most garden books and mags feature pictures of mature gardens, so it's kind of hard for a beginner to know how things are supposed to look early on, you know?

Anyway, look at this pic and let me know if this is where you thought the maple (or something else?) should go. I took this pic at almost seven pm. The only time the area gets direct light like this is in the evening. Most of the day it's in the shadow of a large deciduous tree, with the exception of a tiny little corner on the far left. And of course in the winter it's not in the shadow anymore...the trunk and branches of that tree still cast a spotty shadow on it in the winter. That tall tree hasn't really even totally leafed out yet, so I'm still waiting to see what the shade is like. My memory from last year is that it's pretty darn shady in that spot during the summer.

This message was edited May 23, 2006 8:27 PM

I'm looking at it again and wondering what the diameter of that spot is. It looks smaller in the last photo. If it's really small then we'd need to rethink. I do see what you are saying about covering up the wall. We may just want to go back to hostas with some astilbes. Perhaps a very wide hosta that doesn't get too tall would be great where we were talking about the tree. Or perhaps a small Japanese maple that you can keep pruned up so that the wall shows behind it. A Koto no Ito might work if the space is large enough.

The ligularia continues fills out when as it matures and they grow very quickly. Here's a photo of farfugium Areomaculata (sp?) - which is related in my yard that I took yesterday. This one only gets about 2 feet tall. They start out small with just a few leaves but they grow into handsome plants. They all want adequate water though and slugs love them - about like Hostas I think.

I'm sorry if I seem to be jerking you all over the map. I'm pretty random. But my garden seems to like it.

This message was edited May 23, 2006 6:12 PM

They aren't like hosta though in that they fill in quickly. I almost surely have overplanted this area. I had no idea that they would fill in so fast. I have some of the Othello also and they are pretty.

Here's a grouping I planted this spring bare root. This was taken April 19th

Here it was this morning. I also have some new ferns in there at the edge but they are too small to see right now and some groundcover but it was pretty beat up by the planting. Ajuga here. I'm going to have to move the hostas out that are in the back but I forgot that they were there when I planted.

My shade garden has so many of the plants you mention, I just had to jump in and add woodland phlox (divaricata 'White Perfume' is special), martagon lily and wild ginger. They each add a special something and are not toxic to the best of my knowledge. Open space, what is that? A shade garden thinks it's the forest floor and just creeps and leaps and shapes itself if you let it. It is my favorite garden - has every imaginable shade of green and remains lush and beautiful in every season. Good luck with your beautiful spot!

Lily