Mimosa picture

Thanks for taking my comment as it was intended. Each of us are passionate in our own way about different topics. Speaking of Dads, I actually enjoyed reading the entire forum because it reminded me of the heated discussions my Dad and I use to have on various topics - its funny the older I get how more my thinking has become like his (not necessarily in agreement, however). He has recently passed and how I would love to have one of those discussions again.
When I said "control" the things in pots, I was referring to the fact that I keep them cut back - i do not let them propagate by root and I don't grow anything that I can't just take do that way.
We are living on my husband's "old-home-place" and there is one tree I would love to irradicate from our propery. His grandmother obviously loved it because there are at least 4 on the place. Three are out in a hard clay area where nothing else will grow presently (I haven't tackled that spot yet) and so they don't bother me much. The other is in the back yard and has seedlings popping up everywhere. It also is FULL of bees ( I know that's not necessarily a bad thing - unless the branches are hanging over your clothes line). It drops its pollen and seeds all over and - well, I just don't like it. The in-laws call it a "pop-corn" tree but I can't find it in any of my books. I have begged my hubby to cut it down but since his grandparents planted it, I guess it will be there long after I'm gone. It does provide shade but is crowing the redbud and cypress that they also planted.
As for other of our invasives, I'm just having to control as best I can and learn to live with them(such as the privet) We would have to bulldoze acres of wooded acreage to get rid of it. We had goats for a while hoping they would take care of the privet and kudzu but they liked my shrubs and flowers much better
Good luck to all of you in your efforts. Has anyone noticed that Katrina brought in some new non-native species. She actually must have blown out some enjoyable friends as well. I've only had ONE hummingbird to visit this year and she blew several of our squirrel nests out of the oaks so the babies did not survive. Sometimes man is not the only one rearranging our ecosystem

It was suggested that I bulldoze the land here. They felt it might be best to save the oaks and hickories and start from scratch. If I knew then what I found out a few years ago, I probably would have bulldozed but... if I had been able to wait to see what I am seeing now coming up from the seedbank even with all the unwelcome plants that are appearing left and right...I would have continued plugging along so I guess bulldozing has its place but it might be better to work with what you have at your own pace. Oh what a difference the removal of a few makes here and there over time. I started by going after any trees that were fruiting. Want a laugh for the day? Rhamnus spp. changes sex. Wonderful adaptive trait to give European Buckthorn yet another competitive edge. Yup, I'd just get all happy removing great big fruiting females and low and behold the next year I had a few males fruiting. I stood there scratching my head wondering how the heck I missed those. I didn't miss them.

Your pop-corn tree is probably Chinese tallow (Sapium sebiferum).

Thanks Equilibrium, you are exactly right and it is VERY invasive. I'll keep working on the hubby to get rid of it. Bulldozing is not an opition here. We have pines that were planted for investment purposes by parents and grandparents. We also have old majestic oaks, birch trees, dogwood, maples, sweet gum (pain in the foot and rear), and on and on. What we have chosen to do is let the woods area do its thing and keep about 2 - 3 acres around the house free for what we would like to have. I'm trying to work around his grandma's existing plantings but sometimes have to make a change. For instance, she obviously had a thing for yucca plant which is coming up under almost every tree and near the house. What some here call "mock orange" (but its not) is also coming up everywhere. I recently had my hubby cut down some near the house and its coming back like crazy from the roots along with a yucca that was obviously in the middle of the thing somehow. Oh well, on goes the battle. With our weather conditions lately, I spend most of my outdoor time just trying to keep my perennials from dying and my hens from setting.

Well, there's hope out there on hubbies too! Mine finally told me I could get rid of the Bradford Pear that he was hugging for the sake of company we had over. The Bradford shades the area where he barbecues and he claimed he didn't want to burn the bald spot on his head with no shade. Keep up, sooner or later your hubby might be able to part with his pop-corn tree. If and when he's ready, you might want to check into getting a little bit of Garlon 4 to treat the stump if you ever cut it down. Come to think of it, G4 should work on Sapium sebiferum as a cut stump treatment as well as basal bark treatment.

You might also print out a few things you've found on the web regarding your invasive popcorn tree. Maybe that would help him. Equil's got all kinds of good links, so I'll leave them for her to post.....oh and also do a search on the difference between an invasive plant and just a garden thug. You never know, he just might change his mind!

Ha ha ha! I gave my husband printed off information from websites about the Bradford Pear (Calleryana) as well as a copy of the original interview with the man who claimed he felt horrible that his "Barbie" had just spawned "Chuckie" and my husband still went and hugged the tree and claimed he loved that tree in front of people we had over. You had to be there, it was pretty funny actually. He even rubbed the top of his head for effect and asked me if I wanted his bald spot to be sun burned. Everyone was rolling from laughing so hard. It wasn't until I printed off information on how weak the tree was and rolled out a tape measure and let him see that it wasn't even 20' from our family room that he decided I could take my chain saw to it this fall after he got one last season of shaded barbecuing out of it. Hmmm, the thought of his little family playing Monopoly in the family room during a nice lightening storm, blizzard, or high winds got to him. Bad news, the Sapium sebiferum isn't a weak tree prone to splitting and causing property damage.

msfarmergirl, if you have a good relationship with the local fire department the best thing to do in a southern pine forest is a prescribed burn during the winter. It keeps that privet in check very well. I know what you mean about the popcorn trees, they are a big problem here too. I have finally girdled all of mine so they are all dead (except for some resprouts). I took a trip up hwy45 from Meridian to Tupelo and then 78 to Holly Springs a few weeks ago. It was a nice trip.

I was outside just a bit ago taking photos of some American Hazelnuts that were chowed down last fall and I walked around a little bit into areas I don't frequent all that much. Remember when I typed-

Last year I removed all of about 4-5 Asian Honeysuckles from the area I am posting a photograph of below. As you can see in the photos, I haven't done much in this area and you can even see Buckthorn leaves in some of the photos. Just 4-5 Bush Honeysuckles were removed and look what I found this morning growing where they used to be!

Here's another photo a little to the right-

Now I am motivated to hit this area hard.

And a close up-

One more photo from a clearing in front of the area I photographed above-

Ask the DLL to ID the viburnum for you.

Thank you for continuing to inform me...I hover still, and share information close to home.

Someone is trading mimosas on the Plant Trading forum. (sigh)

I looked at that Viburnum and it screamed acerifolium to me. Am I wrong?

I linked this thread to this one.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/620203/#new
Am I going to be censored?
Dare I do the same for the wisteria offer and the thread from here?
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/625455/#new

Yes, from time to time people offer these types of plants, it happens. I wouldn't provide a link to this thread over in their thread because these are two totally different forums with a completely different focus and emphasis. There are all kinds of gardeners out there and many of these issues will be totally foreign to those who use these plants in their landscapes. Most of these plants are very popular and sold just about everywhere. Just a thought.

ok.
It's more than just "time-to-time," it's regular enough for someone as ignorant about most plants as me to notice it.

But if education is the key, then how else does one educate?

Modeling is excellent, but if there is no model to be seen....

I learned more about invasiveness after I learned one of the things growing here is Purple Loosestrife. I offered it to someone who had it on her trade wanted list, and she told me that lots have folks told her about its invasiveness, so she didn't want it. I did more checking on the stuff, and happened across the beetlefarming info on a PL offer on the Plant Trading forum. Someone responded to the offer with invasiveness information and her new position as a beetle farmer. It was all very civil. Who knows if the trades went on, but the information was shared. I've read threads where posters changed their minds about planting certain things because of eloquent arguements/explanations given by one Equilibrium.

Totally different forums, but in the same Garden, same planet, with participants having at least one common interest. We should be able to share without getting nailed to the cross by someone who doesn't agree..... there will be always someone who agrees and who disagrees. How does one pick and choose who to share important information with? If it's only in this forum, then the reach is quite limited.

How often has someone posted, "Oh, I wish someone told me," and "I thought if they sold it in the nurseries, they'd be ok."

I wish I had a really good answer for the questions you ask. I understand them and totally get where you're coming from. I guess we can only educate those that want to be educated. Sometimes, no matter how nice you word a post, somebody will still think that you're attacking them. IMO, linking the posts where people are trying to trade the invasive species, was a good move. I've also learned that just by saying I don't know if you're aware of this and then go on and tell them the plant is listed on the feds (or states) invasive list and whatever you want to write without being judgemental. But, you have to understand that some people don't necessarily believe it. Or, they'll argue that just because it's invasive somewhere East, doesn't mean it's invasive somewhere in the SW. It's just hard to educate sometimes. Don't argue, just make your point and move on. If some think you are arguing, then by all means apologize and let them know that you've become interested in invasive species and have done a lot of reading and you did not mean to sound like you wanted to argue or that you hold them in judgement for what they choose to put in their yards. Does that make sense?

Tough question to answer given the sheer numbers of people who state exactly what you typed, "Oh, I wish someone told me," and "I thought if they sold it in the nurseries, they'd be ok." I guess you might try to comment from the heart by providing them with the Latin name of the plant and then simply stating that the plant is listed as an invasive species and it can become pretty weedy even in areas that aren't all that hospitable to them. Let them google the Latin name and read for themselves and come to their own conclusion of what is right for them. Remember one thing, even plants that aren't allegedly invasive in one area seem to have an incredible ability to set seed and most people don't like weeding them out of their well watered flower beds and lawns and I'm also sure you've seen countless posts of gardeners complaining about what their neighbors planted ending up on their property. I've come to the conclusion this ability to set seed is nothing more than an adaptive trait of many invasive species particularly as it seems as if these plants rechannel all of their available energies to seed production. Needless to say, if there are any natural areas around, the seed could very well end up in those natural areas. This is called escaping cultivation. Actually, the seed probably did end up in those natural areas or the Feds wouldn't have classified them as an invasive species.

I think that it might not be quite right to interfere with someone else's trading post. Why? Though you might think that you are educating them, the information that you present may not be correct and you will be interfering with their gardening enjoyment.

The issue of "invasiveness" is imbued with much subjectivity. Most "invasive" plants colonize degraded habitats. Yes, even our gardens are quite degraded. Others resent non-natives because they are "historically out-of-place". Many scientists are moving away from the term "invasiveness" which carries with it much political and cultural baggage, and are beginning to relabel plants as opportunistic. Both natives and non-natives may be opportunistic.

Anyway, I would highly resent anyone interfering with any of my plant trades by trying to educate me with highly subjective, scientifically dubious information.

I might concede that human beings, as non-natives, are highly invasive and destructive of the N. American habitats. :-)

The issue of aggressiveness may be imbued with subjectivity but once a plant is officially labeled as an invasive species, there is considerable documentation out there generally spanning decades of its ability to threaten ecosystems, and/or our economy, and/or public health. The scientific community does not take the term invasive lightly and to the best of my knowledge, that community is not moving away from the term invasiveness in favor of opportunistic. Each word carries considerably different connotations.

Hey 4paws, I'm thinking that the split will be about 50/50. There will be those who will welcome your comments and be grateful they were provided with the Latin name so they could do their own research and make their own decision and there will be those who will resent your comments. I believe that if you comment from the heart, even those who would not welcome your comments would probably take them in the spirit in which they were intended. Now, you may get ignored but then that would just be that person's way of saying thanks but no thanks.

Hey thistlepunk,

http://www.invasive.org/eastern/images/768x512/0002030.jpg

Ugh Fireweed, Purple Loosestrife! I'm surrounded by acres of that plant. Now it's all your fault if I have nightmares.

Incidentally, here's a great thread started by another member on Chinese Wisteria-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/589016/

The problem with the official label, is that even the official lists may be heavily influenced more by political, commercial, and nativist concerns than with any real scientific evidence. "It is nonnative, I saw it in several degraded woodlots, so it must be invasive." Worse yet, is labeling a plant as invasive just because it is visually inconsistent in a historic context.

Yes, there are very many in the scientific community who strongly buy into the notion of invasiveness and have influence over those who generate the invasive lists. Thankfully, though, there are those who are rethinking this, and a few who never bought in at all.

If you feel that you must disseminate information, I still feel that interfering with other's trades is the wrong place.

Yes, politics does enter the equation. I always sat here and sort of scratched my head wondering how some species ended up on the invasives lists for Wisconsin, Iowa, and Indiana but not on the lists for Illinois yet we sit smack dab in the middle of those States in virtually a similar climate. So I called Springfield many years ago to ask and was told one word, lobbyists. Nursery lobbyists to be exact. It was my understanding that several plants might make it on to our Hall of Shame list once the nursery industry sold out their stock to avoid financial ruin. Interesting.

So, until certain plants are formally identified it would appear the tax payer will continue to get stuck with the clean up bill. Farmers remove exotic pests and plants that escape cultivation from their fields by using chemicals and they are subsidized by the State as well as by our Federal Government and volunteers of natural areas go out and remove those pests and plants that invade natural areas. Since I am one of those volunteers for both the County and the State, I can assure we are not interested in the degraded woodlot.

To date, the scientific community has had little influence over what ends up on invasive lists and what doesn't. The little person who claims, "It is nonnative, I saw it in several degraded woodlots, so it must be invasive" certainly has no input in this decision making process unless of course they sit on the board of their Homeowners Association and write bylaws disallowing the planting of certain plants. I've got one of these types sitting in my HO Board who doesn't like anything unless it is a native plant but so far she is getting shot down converting our neighborhood to a native plant only subdivision in part because of documentation I provide on a regular basis evidencing that not all introduced plants do damage. I'm not in the mood to part with thousands of my iris that don't bother anyone because she is incapable of seeing the forest for the trees. It would appear politicians have had the greatest influence in this arena at both a State and a Federal level.

Although rather dated, I believe this document sums up where we are at as a Nation. The annual costs cited in this document have escalated dramatically over the past 7 years with the introduction of pests such as the Emerald Ash Borer but the report is still representative of what's going on-

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan99/species_costs.html

I think a message in the Plant Trading forum is unobtrusive and allows for folks to make their own decisions. If I were to offer an invasive plant, I would want someone to tell me before I stupidly passed it around and contributed to the problem.

I don't believe personal, individual enjoyment has precedence over the greater good of all, and if a small bit of information is all it takes to ruin someone's enjoyment, then I think they already know they're doing something wrong deep in their heart. "Methinks the lady protests too much," and all that.

I know my heart is in the right place when I share information. If I don't do it, then I'm part of the problem, because silence is, in essence, agreement.

Equil - I think Illinois pales by comparison in laxness of regulating, listing or providing easily acessible information regarding noxious weeds, invasive plants, or prohibited plants.
You have to really hunt for a complete list and the list is short - 14 (Ohio Dept of Ag.)

Maybe it would be a place for the Admin to put a short header on the top of a thread saying that the plant has the potential to become invasive. Kind of like a warning label.

That would be just fabulous!
It would also be nice if such information could be peacefully shared without anyone getting defensive.

I equate it with someone letting me know my skirt's hem is stuck in my underwear - or letting me walk around like that for more folks to see.... I'd rather be told ASAP! That's kindness, isn't it?

I believe, and it's just my own little opinion, that way too many people don't bother to research a plant first. It's pretty, they want it, it grows, they've got more to share....heck, even their neighbors have some to share (and the neighbors neighbors and the whole street 2, 3, 4, 5 blocks away). Then you also get people like thistlepunk, who don't believe what is written. That somehow it's me seeing a degraded woodlot and proclaiming it must be invasive and somehow for some reason, my state (or the federal government) listens to what I say. If you have woods and say that the jap honeysuckle and the multiflora rose have totally taken over to the point where there is no other shrub or wildflower growing, I'm afraid I don't understand why those plants aren't considered invasive. The plants choked out all others. Anything that displaces native plants is invasive. There are some native plants that are taking over and they too are considered invasive in certain areas. I am probably the least political person you'd ever meet. So I have a really hard time connecting politics with invasive plant list.

Your "own little opinion" works for me, too, terryr.

Until recently, it never dawned on me to research plants for environmental impact, and I consider myself to be somewhat aware of what's going on (at least 'til I moved out here three years ago). Plus, I'm an educator by nature and by trade, so I can't not share information, or seek new information.

I'm afraid to understand how it is interfering with someone's trade by posting information on the nature of the plant in question. Don't gardeners regularly discuss how plants grow and perform? It's not forcing anyone to do anything.

Plus, it's not a personal attack on the trade participants, though I've seen it interpreted that way.

Thistlepunk, your words, "The little person who claims, "It is nonnative, I saw it in several degraded woodlots, so it must be invasive." feels insulting, even though I'm sure it wasn't intended to be. I'm new to my full understanding of "invasive" and don't take the term lightly. When I realized the buddliea I see everywhere here in the Trinity River Valley was not native, it was hard to dig up the ones I planted and burn them, and not plant another that I had purchased, but I finally did it. I've got miscanthus and calamagrostis (sp) that won't go in the ground, as well as oleander and another grass that I traded/sent postage on DG for. In ignorance, I traded for things that are invasive. I won't plant them, but it would have been better if I knew ahead of time.

Sometimes we have to make decisions that are not in line with what we want, but we make them anyway, for the greater good. To make good decisions, we need good information.

4paws, is oleander invasive in CA? It is commonly planted around here but I never see any volunteers anywhere. It may be our frost in the winter which sometimes damages older plants.

Not to change the subject but something made me crack up laughing-

First off, I hate shopping for clothing. It's not just the cost of clothing but the time element of going in and trying things on. Last week Kohls had a clearance sale and I went on over there to see what I could pick up for cheap. I had to try a lot of things on and ended up leaving the fitting rooms with 3 new suits, 5 skirts, and 5 tops. I felt a wave of relief that I had been able to pick up some new clothing. I stood in line with my new clothes waiting to check out. The lines were long because it was a sale. More people got in line behind me. Finally it was my turn to check out. While checking out, an elderly woman motioned a young girl over by me. The young girl whispered in my ear. I don't hear well so I asked her to share what ever it was she wanted to share with me with out whispering and she said crystal clear and loud as a bell, "My grandmas said to let you know your slip and your skirt are stuck up in the top of your panty hose in back. Oh Lordie Lordie Lordie. I reached behind my butt and sure enough, the whole skirt and slip were stuck up there in the top of the panty hose and to add insult to injury... there is a reason why pantyhose is called pantyhose. About all I could do was thank her. By that point, not only was I laughing but so was everyone else behind me.

So, who wants to go shopping with me?

Back to our scheduled programming... I would have wanted to know if I had been offering or possibly accepting an invasive plant back before I got in the habit of getting the Latin names to any plant I wanted and began checking them out before I bought/traded/offered anything. Therefor I would agree with 4paws, "I think a message in the Plant Trading forum is unobtrusive and allows for folks to make their own decisions". I must admit that I wouldn't follow up with additional comments unless asked to do so though. Again, I truly believe that "if you comment from the heart, even those who would not welcome your comments would probably take them in the spirit in which they were intended".

Terry, may I correct you on something please? It's not so cut and dry as this,

snapple, go into the lists of invasive plants for any states adjoining yours and that should give you a good starting point. You may additionally search for any and all plants invasive to the eastern US.

One other last little note, there is a category in the listings for plants in the PlantFiles that denotes invasiveness. If you spot an invasive plant that is not listed as being invasive, chances are the file hasn't been updated so get a few links to substantiate your claim that the plant is invasive and the Admins will gladly change it for you. It's as simple as that. You can also go here and type in the Latin name of a plant then scroll down and you will find references to a plant being either noxious or invasive-
http://plants.usda.gov/index.html

I particularly like this site because one can get access to scientific journal articles-
http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/plants/pubs.shtml

Hey escambia, Oleander is an introduced species and it has naturalized. Some research out there on it being invasive. Definitely aggressive.

And that is exactly why I said it was my own little opinion........

Very doable suggestion, Equilibrium - I didn't consider going the route of adding information to the plant files.

Such experiences (not quite as you describe, because there's not enough money in the world to get me to wear nylon hose again) remind me of why I shop online. I hate the whole trying-on-clothes gig, and....thanks for sharing that story! lol

Ugh Terry, you got me again woman! You did in fact preface your statement. That's twice in one week that you called me on the carpet!

Hey 4paws, I like the PlantFiles, so do most people. Do you know how to add photos? I just clicked on your user name and noticed you didn't have any entries. You've got some neat plants out your way that you might want to consider sharing if you have the time. If you would like help adding photos, I can try to walk you through but I'm not all that computer literate. If I botch up the process, you'll have to get a hold of an Admin who will know what they are doing.

Well, I guess sombody's gotta do it, it might as well be me :-)

But would you stop already Terry. I am now at three with you!

I can only stop if you remember what you write or that you read what was written above your post :-)

Yes, I suppose it would help to read all the posts in a thread. And, I haven't been catching jokes lately even when they are a result of something I typed earlier. I'm too darn tired lately. Oh well. Back to stuffing my face. I do that well.