Zone 5 Geraniums in Zone 4?

Has anyone had success growing some of the brighter geraniums such as Anne Folkard, usually desinated for zone 5 in a colder zone? I have tried and failed several times, but maybe if I would plant them in my most sheltered south house foundation bed they would survive. Or in containers in an unheated garage, or a basement?
Sharon

Where there's a will, there's a way. You should be able to raise the zone by at least one, if not two by planting next to a warm foundation. Some plants can benefit by deeper planting. I often plant roses two inches deeper than recommended. If the plant is prone to crown rot, you wouldn't want to do this.

I'd give it another try. This fall, after freeze, make sure you put down lotz of mulch. This will help against the freeze, thraw cycles which I think are more disastrous to the plant than the freeze itself.

Beaker is correct!

Clematis should be planted deeper, too.

Now I am trying perpendular rocks for winter
warmth.

Perpendicular rocks? How so?

Perpendicular rocks: perhaps there is a better term to
describe this practice.

I use the thinner, longer rocks because they are easier
for me to handle.

Any rocks, dug in several inches by the plants, will
carry heat from the winter sun down into the ground.
The rocks will give shelter from the winter winds, too.

Do you mean like a rock border that goes down into the ground? Maybe a rock garden type of arrangement with a lot of rock would add heat too. I've noticed that some borderline plants grow very well in some places in the garden, and not at all in others. It helps to protect new plants from dogs and puppies, to, I've found!
What do you grow with the help of perpendicular rocks?
Sharon

Not necessarily a border of rocks, although I have seen
that arrangement and the effect is pleasing. I don't know
the benefits of diggin in rocks without flowers nearby,
but it looks more natural.

Rocks hold moisture, too. I tend to try the Alpine plants,
which can be difficult in this area. Pebbles are used
for mulch to help retain summer moisture.and keep the
weeds out/down.

Aha! Stonehenge and Easter Island finally explained! They were just trying to keep the plants warm.

I have a lot of questions. How big are these rocks? Are you doing this in an area that's considered unprotected? Are you experimenting with out-of-zone plants? I'm assuming you get snow. What happens when the rocks are covered with snow. Are there any articles written on this subject? I've never heard of this as a gardening practice, but it sure does make sense. I'd be really interested in learning more about this.

You want to dig the rock in 8-10 inches to match the depth
of the plant roots.

Any size rock to suit your taste or the area plants.

Yes, I am doing this in a protected area.

Zone 5 plants in Zone 4a.

Yes, lots of snow - usually.

The sun will melt the snow, or I will brush it off. The heat
of the sun will be carried down to the roots - or so the
theory is. My Father did this. My son is a Geologist and
he says it should work. Well, since he has to carry and
dig for the larger rocks.....

What about in the dead of winter when there is no sun, and it is -40. I thought that a deep snow cover provides protection, and that the main danger is the heaving of freeze-thaw cycles?
Not that I am questioning the value of rocks. I guess i am questioning the value of brusning off the snow.
Sharon

Who suffers a -40 temp? Not around here.

No sun? That is a chance I take.

Yes, deep snow cover provides protection, etc.

Brushing the snow off the 'rocks only' is what I should
have written.

This message was edited May 15, 2006 5:21 PM

What you say makes a lot of sense, Rick. People with zone envy (including me) may want to give something like this a try when nothing else has worked. Personally, I don't have the real estate to give up to planting rocks. I'd rather have a plant in that area.

The last of my lilies are coming up also, but I also have a slew of them planted in more protected areas that are up about 2 feet. I'm sweating bullets that the temperatures don't take a nose dive.

I only have two martagons. Both are not in protected areas. The Terrace City is up at least 15 inches or more and the L martagon just poked it's nose up this week. I have two stems on the Terrace City. I've had it for 3 seasons and have yet to see it bloom. I'm hoping this year may be the year it blooms.

I agree you want to hold the mulch on as long as possible in the spring, but last year I had actual plant damage where I left the mulch on too long. This year I pulled it off earlier, but kept it in case frost or snow was predicted. It's hard to judge when to take it off. Any recommendations?

I'm curious about your comment "using rocks in summer for temperature". What's that about?

Rick,

Your epistle is interesting.

What is this 'authority' of which you speak?

Beaker, fluff up the mulch in early spring (March for us), but don't take it off. That way excess moisture and compaction that may cause damage to emerging beauties won't exist. Martagons generally emerge earlier and are more frost hardy.

Rick

This message was edited May 15, 2006 5:17 PM

Alpines are not normally grown in rocky soil?

Rocks melt snow?

Indeed, people do tend to listen to those who pontificate on
subjects with 'authority', this 'authority' being only an opinion.

I hope your new thread has scientific notations.
After all, one's opinion is not always fact.

Now, now children...
Of course alpines grow in rocky soil, but there is deep snow cover in winter, right?
I welcome everyone's opinion especially if there is experience behind it. Us zone 4 people need to stick together to fight the big guy - old man winter :>)
Sharon

Dear Sharon,

There is not always deep snow cover in winter -
at least not where I live.

I, too, enjoy reading experienced persons' advice
or activities, but only if it is accurate.

This should be my last 'peep' on the subject of
digging in rocks.

This message was edited May 15, 2006 5:15 PM

"...and although I purposely speak with authority...."
[your statement]

Tut, tut!

I am not your enemy. I wanted the source of
your grandiose statements.

"Authority: A person with specialized knowledge,
a book etc., that can supply reliable information..."
Oxford American Dictionary

Ahhhh, Leftwood, stick around... always good to read an interesting discussion. That's the way we learn new techniques, from the experiences of other who dare to try. :)

We are at an impass. Can we leave it at that? And I must also apologize to Sharon (caitlansgarden), for ruining this thread.

Rick

This message was edited May 21, 2006 9:13 AM

Dear Excited Leftwood,

I understand the English language and its variations.

I will not list my college degress as that would be bragging.
Furthermore, I do not want to further embarrass you.

Your use of hyperbole demonstrates confusion.

No, I will not remove my posts.
Why remove your posts if you are so sure you "speak
with authority"?

Your friend

Perhaps agreeing to disagree over the semantics would be best?

Please remember that flame wars tend to burn everyone who plays with fire, not just the person who started it.

Consider this your friendly warning from admin.

Yes, we are at an impass. Taking Terry's advice is in everyone's best interest, and I would very much like to leave it at that.

Rick

This message was edited May 15, 2006 5:35 PM

Hi Sharon. I started pushing the zone with hardy geraniums a few years back. A mail order nursery had Brookside listed as zone 5. Tried it anyways and it's been divided and given away a few times. I am officially in zone 2b, but when they changed it from a 3, my plants and I didn't agree, so I stayed at 3. I am in the country, not sheltered by the city. I've grown quite a few that aren't supposed to be hardy here. Two winters for Rozanne and one for Katherine Adele. My ideal mulching practices are composted leaves around the plant(not over crown) and pine or spruce boughs over if they are available. Sometimes I resort to less than ideal, or nothing at all, once they've survived a few years. I sometimes use flax straw, but that's not easy to come by for some. (Note, the mice and squirrels love it.) We usually get good snow cover. I say try it, if it's not way off your zone. You haven't much to lose and I think the nurseries are quite modest with the zone ratings sometimes.

Brenda

Brenda,
The spruce boughs and mulch are a good idea. I've never mulched geraniums and have had good luck with most of mine except for the yellow-leaved magenta flowered ones. I also have never suceeded in overwintering lambs ears, but last year I grew in on a well draining slope, and mulched with pine boughs and then leftover corn stalks, which we use for cow bedding. It came through beautifully. What else do you grow ?
Sharon

I don't always winter mulch my geraniums either, just when I'm nervous. You mean what else that I shouldn't be growing? Ha, I try almost everything at least once or twice. i've had a white Knifophia for a few years, and last year I left my crocosmias in the ground and they came back. I think for a few plants it's the winter/spring wet that gets them, not the cold. Plus that freeze/thaw thing.Sometimes I lose plants that I don't feel I should have either.

This year is my third try for Chocolate Eupatoreum. Three strikes and your out. One thing I try to do is divide as soon as a plant is big enough. Then I have a spare or two.

I start a lot of perennials from seed, and buy the special cultivars from nurseries. I've tried Veronicas, Campanulas, Geum, Dianthus, Potentilla, Catmints, Meconopsis, Oriental poppies, Primulas..........a few more, but memory is malfunctioning. I have a bit of trouble with geum. And of course the cupboard staples, daylilies, lilies ahd Irises.

How about you. What are your growing interests? Addictions?

I had geum for 3 years, didn't come back last year. So I got another one and it made it thru last winter just fine. I collected seed from the red one I lost, Mrs. Bradshaw's and now have 5 seedlings, just about ready to set out. :) I think the cutworms got it, because when I checked it in the spring, I tugged on the old crown and the whole thing lifted out and there was a whole bunch of cutworms inside it. GROSS! I hate them things!

I've been reading the catalog for "High Country Gardens" and they sell mostly xeric plants, for low water conditions, but also some that will grow in the more midwestern states. They suggest special growing conditions such as a moveable cold frame for some of them. Not because they are not zone 4 hardy, but because the winter wet/thaw would rot them.So this is something to consider also - some plants need especially well draining soil. Not sure if that would be true of the geraniums, but I will look into it.
They have a zone 4 knifofia that I am very tempted to try. This has been one of my impossible gardeners dreams - red hot poker! It's interesting, Echoes, that you list a white knifofia as something that grows in your garden.
As for else you grow, yes, I guess what I meant is what do you grow that is stretching the zone a bit , and how do you do it.
Sharon

I like the idea of the moveable cold frame. I've seen it recommended to mulch with crushed (chicken/turkey grit for us)stone around some plants that like their crowns dry. I have done it with course sand for some irises. It eventually settles into the soil around the rhizomes. Some of the TB's are harder to grow here. I grow a few I. ensatas without more than a careless mulch, but the water in my natural pond is always low in winter. I don't think they mind the cold, but I think Inanda told me they like it dryer in winter. Maybe that helps.

I have tried Geranium oxonianum Thurstonianum a couple of times and it doesn't work for me. It's the only one I've ever lost.

The knifophia looked horrible this spring. Thought it was done for. All mushy because it was still trying to bloom when winter came last year. The rain just kept it growing. I tie the leaves up and mulch around it . Then it is covered with a five gallon pail, with lots of holes drilled in the sides. Then sort of tent around and up the pail with dried bullrushes or Siberia iris leaves. Takes the water away. Those plants that are fussy about drainage will do better if they are planted on a little hill.

No secrets, mostly tial and error or readng good garden books, like Patrick Lima's. You don't always win, but it's sure fun when you do. I can't think of any others that I do anything special for, besides a bit of mulch, but if you have a specific plant in mind, please mention it.

edited to add, Laura, those things gross me out too. I've still got a couple of different geums, started from seed. But I must have lost about a third of them last year.

This message was edited May 18, 2006 2:53 PM

I never heard of geums before DG and I think they are the cutest flowers! You are brave trying them in z3. wow! I've always seen them listed as z5 and thought I was pushing the envelope a bit. I tried kniphofia once, winter killed the first winter. Tried cardinal flower, winter killed the first year and it was in front of the house, which I consider z5 or close to it. bummer!

My cardinal flowers made it through the winter, but are struggling. I went to plant a pulmonaria where my Geranium Thurstonianum had been, and in hoofing out the old rootball, noticed three very tiny little sprouts, so I replanted it. I doubt it will make it, but I have to give it a chance. At some point I have to say "Grow or get out." I just don't have the time to coddle everything.

That's the way it works around here too. If you haven't shaped up after the sleep, creep, leap scenario, you are on ur own, SINK or SWIM! LOL

I have had surprising results moving things around a bit. I had a so-so Johnsons Blue geranium, and I finally divided it and moved it to several different spots last year, and this year it is just gorgeous and huge!
Try some different conditions if something is not growing well, before you pitch it

For sure. I never pitch anything till it's dried up and crispy.

This message was edited May 20, 2006 4:44 PM

Pitch it? PITCH IT? Gosh, I don't think I ever pitch a thing! Except a dead plant. LOL!

Mmmm, I pitched some tuckered-out Coreopsis 'Early Sunrise' yesterday, before it reached "crispy" stage ;o) That bed is chock-full, and there were plenty other, younger, more vigorous Coreopsis plants that didn't look so ratty. The vacant space can now be used for a veronica that needs more "personal space" anyway.

The longer I garden, the more ruthless I become. If it's a plant I think is saleable (annual plant sale each spring) or I think a neighbor or family member can use, I pot up the divisions. Otherwise, they go to the compost heap.

That's kinda the reality sometimes. For the first time, I pulled up and dumped 'Magnus' echinaceas - I gave away about 40 last year and didn't dead head again! Dummie me! I gave in and pulled everything but a couple of extra clumps, just in case someone walks by that needs one. :)

Yeah I know what you mean about extra plants. I'm thinking of starting a roadside stand - kind of a self-serve-drop your $2 in the staked down can here-type of venture. Mainly to share mother nature's bounty, not to get rich!
Sharon